Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[zed1]

Yes, but it was OP as a Tier I PrE anyway, which is precisely why so many people took it. I'm not saying it isn't losing anything, but it's losses now put it about where it should be power-wise, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm totally in agreement; Tempest I was overpowered and the changes bring it in line with what it should be power-wise. However that is a BIG drop in power, and nerfs a significant number of end-game focused builds like the Monster and Ravager.

[SquelchHU]

In shroud 4.. you have blades that have some crazy AI/damage calculations. The lag doesn't get extremely bad unless the blades are plowing through peole on the outside, or once they reach melees.

In Shroud 5, the devs confirmed it was particle effects... which they fixed and the lag has gotten much better in 5 than in 4.

I'm not saying DPS lag doesn't exist. I'm just saying that instance-specific lag is a bigger problem.

It's been proven DPS lag is caused by damage piling up on a target over extended periods. This is why taking a pause works to fix it. Bosses that move around, or teleport around, or throw you across the room don't let you pile it up. Those that just stand still and auto attack with you do.

Try surrounding Harry in part 5, then try it letting him out often.

I think it fair to say it's tied to non moving bosses.

Also, I rarely get any lag in part 3. Blades are there too. In fact I'd say there's more of them.

[Gercho]

I think the main problem in this discussion is that there is a mix of two things (leaving lag reduction out since all agree about consolidating collision checks).

First things to discuss are the goals for the balance between different styles.

One the goals have been stated and agreed or accepted at least, you can discuss how to attain those goals and what changes should be made, right now people suggest different things, mostly because they have different goals, and the devs should have some goals in mind aswell, but we are not sure about them, would be nice if the devs state the balance goals clearly, and then we discuss about that, and later we can discuss about numbers and how to achieve those goals.

What i think that should be the goals for the balance are:

TWF should be in general better dps than THF against one single static opponent (since twf requires more investment in stat points and grinding), i think 10 to 15% better its a good number to start (obviously different twf builds will have different total dps, but we can compare top twf and maintain the relative damage for the other builds proportional to what is now)

THF without twitching should have around the same dps than THF with twitching against a single static opponent. And the thf without twitching should be used to compare with twf in the previous post.

THF should have more dps against multiple opponents (as its now)

TWF should have better procs (as its now)

If we cant agree on the goals, we will never agree on what should be implemented... i think the main problem right now is that top THF is benefitting a lot from twitching and a bugged capstone, so most twf'ers compare badly again that particular build, but are much better than all the non full 20 barbarians, and non twitching thf's, if you take out of the picture the twitching and the hidden capstone, then maybe a nerf is needed for twf to be just 15% ahead of thf...

[Velexia]

I like the idea quite a bit.


It still works. We set it up to grab multiple targets as necessary in the initial check.

There's that Rogue love I was looking for <3

[Consumer]

I'm totally in agreement; Tempest I was overpowered and the changes bring it in line with what it should be power-wise. However that is a BIG drop in power, and nerfs a significant number of end-game focused builds like the Monster and Ravager.

The monster was rendered pointless when Fighters were given capstones.

I agree that nerf to tempest rogues is too much, especially since so much DPS comes from sneak attacks.

[Drfirewater79]

ToD still applies with a wind4 10% chance of doublestrike on mainhand. Stunning blow and fist apply the same 10% and so there's a 10% of the mob having to make a double save.

The new information from Eladrin earlier in this thread shows to me that there seems to be something quite nifty going on behind the scenes - where the results of the physics check isn't just 'here's the nearest mob' but rather 'here is a list of the closest mobs'. This means that if a main hand strike kills a mob (e.g. a vorpal, or a quivering palm, or an assassinate), then doublestrike or offhand attacks still have a chance to kill the 'next in line'. Of course this same physics check would be needed for glancing blows so it makes sense that the technology is already in place.

This monks remain quite well off (except the 14% dps loss!) with their special 'one punch' attacks given they now all have that extra 10% chance of hitting again.

Garth

yeah but the 14% loss is way more then the potential two hit special attack .. .and if your a light monk (be it that exalted smite has not yet been confirmed as shintao III) your totally screwed by this ...

that means 14% less ki generation ... which means slower buffs ... slower heals ... and since they already are slow due to recharging timer and small duration of buffs light monks get jacked hardcore from this ...

and alot of light monks who heal stay in fire stance for ki gen reasons even when dex fighters its the only way you could possibly help heal effectively.

this change totally screws monks ... even the 500 pointer cannot be done without 50 ki meaning with 14% loss in attack speed its gonna take 14% longer to build the ki up to use it ...

all the ranger crying is nothing the monks get the worse out of this change then anyone.

[dragonofsteel]

What I see with the changes trunbine needs to cheap the cost of tempest 1, it use to be really poweriful but with these changes and the AC boost becoming just like a shield clickie it's cost needs redone. That is if they go with what I see up there as of now. Three feats require for a class that does not get that many extra feats is big cost. Basicly 42.8% of the feats rangers get go to one enhancement. If you count the other feat you have to take for tempest three it takes it up 57.1% feats have to go tours this line, which has been weaken lot over time. Fighters get 10% double strike just for 2 enchancement points. If Trubine takes away the STWF feat away it will keep rangers king of TWF, but with it fighters would rule at lot less cost to them. I think the cost of mobilty, dodge, and spring attack for tempest 1 has out grown the tempest line. Cheapin the line if going to keep nerfing the line or place the same damage with double strikes as had before 110% first hand 110 offhand, otherwise reflect the nerfs you been doing to the line with a cheaper cost to get.

Tempest 1 cost when first out 10% haste boost fighting TWF, 2AC stacks with everything.

Tempest 1 now 10% haste boost when fighting TWF, 2AC acts as the shield spell.

Tempest 1 If above changes goes through, 10% to off hand attacks, 2AC acts as shield spell.

If the high cost to get the line was in fact because of the power of the line, now that have nerf its power you need to nerf the cost also. To me this goes hand and hand.

[bobbryan2]

It's been proven DPS lag is caused by damage piling up on a target over extended periods. This is why taking a pause works to fix it. Bosses that move around, or teleport around, or throw you across the room don't let you pile it up. Those that just stand still and auto attack with you do.

Try surrounding Harry in part 5, then try it letting him out often.

I think it fair to say it's tied to non moving bosses.

Also, I rarely get any lag in part 3. Blades are there too. In fact I'd say there's more of them.

Pausing doesn't do a whole lot in epic VoN 6.

Proven isn't the same thing as "commonly agreed upon"

[Drfirewater79]

Turbine's silence on this is deafening. It's part of their money-grab hoping we'll but more SP-pots on the DDO store now that fights will take 20% longer.

has anything turbine done since mod 9 been anything but a money grab?

they are not gonna drop mob hps that would be stupid ... why would you spend hard earned money on pots and shrines and stat buff pots and respecing characters (to which there is still no in game way to lesser or greater TR the biggest cash cow BS turbine has ever done)

now nerf the hell out of the most popular two classes that dual wield and screw over monks a little just before you make them good classes for something other than solo play and TOD.

this will sell lots of +3 hearts of wood as some look to respec out 6 lvls of ranger (thus needing two of them so long as they dont forget what level they took what level of what at) have lots of lvl 20's tr spending money on that out of fustration with changes ....

its all a cash grab ..

and that is why they wont talk about the single most asked about question ... mob hps reduction ...

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

all the ranger crying is nothing the monks get the worse out of this change then anyone.

Rangers get a 17% loss so actually rangers are worse off than monks.

Garth

[Drfirewater79]

Rangers get a 17% loss so actually rangers are worse off than monks.

Garth

actually your doing the same thing the crying rangers are .. .not seeing the big picture ...

17% dps loss for a ranger which is a class that is a high dps class right now means 17% less DPS that is it. actually only brings them to the dps they should have had all along before this tempest thing got out of hand.

14% dps loss to a monk which is already considered one of the weakest melee classes is HUGE ... then add the lack of ki generation which lowers dps and only benifits monks have in this game (attack speed) and then force them into wind stance (which is the slowest ki generating stance) and that 14% is massive ... pretty much screws monks over completely ...

and a 10% chance WHILE IN WIND STANCE for the dark fist finisher means nothing to a light monk who actually uses his ki frequently ...

dark monks dont lose as much as light monks do ... but even they need to have 50 ki to do there attack which will be 14% slower now if not more cause they cannot be in fire stance if they want there double strike.

if you cannot see how monks loss of 14% is way way greater dps loss and ability loss to a weaker dps class then the rangers loss then maybe you dont understand Monks at all ...

monks get the raw end of the stick in this exchange .. .pretty much puts us out of any party that isnt TOD or that we dont solo most of it ourselves first (aka gen point)

[maddmatt70]

Still catching up through the thread, but a few comments:

1) I've been convinced that STWF is not a benefit to the game. Instead of opening up new options, its presence instead would close many.

By this same logic I think we should do away with Gtwf after all that closes up alot of options as well. I disagree that Stwf closes up options or builds any more so then the other twf feats.

[Drfirewater79]

By this same logic I think we should do away with Gtwf after all that closes up alot of options as well. I disagree that Stwf closes up options or builds any more so then the other twf feats.

I agree ... if your a two weapon fighter it doesnt effect you at all to lose one feat to take another and tempests dont need to cause they get 100/100 at lvl 12

in fact stwf might only be bad cause monks cannot afford to take more feats ... and this change screws them hard.

[Drfirewater79]

question ...

this change lowers lag by lessening the calculations needed to be made ..

has anyone tried 6 manning shroud ?

if you still get the same kind of lag in 6 man shroud then it proves that this change wont work at all.

half the calculations is all they are doing with this change then 6 manning a dps intensive raid would prove its worth .. if you still get lag then there is still something bigger at fault.

[zealous]

i think mobility in combat for strategic purposes its ok, now move in combat to increase damage against an static mob that is not even hiting you back, that should not be encouraged...

What's to say that the mob has to be static though?
And why should't it hit back?

The mob being unable to land a blow due to the player moving out of the way might imply that combat is too easy, I'd prefer combat that's based on all melee players reacting to the mob instead of just the one or two players reacting to moving health bars though.

Actually, twitch is not closer to PnP. I'm not sure who was so misinformed as to say it is.

I was so perceptive as to say so.

I think he means that it is rare in PnP for melee players to perform full-round actions so it's "closer to PnP" to have a mechanism that discourages standing still and attacking.

Not exactly what I mean by it but that is true too.

Well, he is wrong. The standard action for a melee in PnP IS a full-round action. It is one of a few things, depending on build:

1. 5 foot step + full attack sequence = full round action
2. full attack + trip = full round action
3. charge + pounce = full round action

It's actually more rare for melee to not perform full round actions. The 5 foot step is extremely common, but you don't do it to increase rate of attack, you do it to move into flank where you can put another +2 into power attack and squeeze out 4 more damage, or possibly move yourself into position for cleave/great cleave.

Actually, you would need quite the plenthora of house rules for full round attacks to be even remotely feasible.

You actually hit the head on the nail (if you even have that saying over yonders).

The 5 foot step.
Now is this possible with stand still attack, no.
Is it possible while twitching, it certainly is.

Since no-twitch breaking of the attack chain is so extremely detrimental to overall dps, as e.g. a 2wf you would generally try to move as little as possible, this is counter-fun imo.

There is a second reason though, tohit doesn't really matter in ddo. When one party can have in excess of +20 tohit from buffs while debuffing mob ac by 20 another party has 0 from buffs and can only debuff by 4.
It's impossible to reasonably scale AC of mobs without massive nerfing and/or excluding certain party compositions, neither is attractive.

Adjusting the bonuses on the attack chain, and making breaking the attack chain increase rate of attacks can be a solution to this though.

For non-full BaB classes and for lower-mid levels this can be noticed. Whereas you generally can twitch to your hearts content, when it's time to go up against that boss with the DA blinking a beautiful red though, then you might need to plant the feat and complete the attack chain.

Now what has this to do with PnP? Well in PnP you have your regressive attack chain and depending on GM you would generally end up having the full attack chain against soft targets while loosing some of the lower tier attacks.

So with twitching you can have some of that functionality, faster attacks against lower ac mobs, faster attacks against higher ac red flagged mobs. Then again this would require some mucking about with the attack progression for higher levels, and if you're mucking about with the attack progression that same functionality could be achieved sans twitch.

Still, there is the 5 foot step

[Aesop]

Any chance we can speed up BASE ranged combat?


Then we can make the Ranger Capstone +25% double attack chance? and the corrosponding Arcane Archer/Deepwood Sniper ToD sets increase double attack chance? I am not sure of what to do, but it seems like double attack is a good oppertunity to fix ranged combat.


How about Many Shot adds a passive 100% double attack instead of its normal effect? Seems to fit the feat description fairly well. Then the ranger 25% capstone (and perhaps other PrE enhancements and sets) increase the double attack chance further past 100% allowing for a possible triple attack?


So a level 20 ranger with manyshot will have a 125% chance to double attack... Meaning= will fire 2 arrows per shot, but 1 in 4 shots will fire 3! Seems preety sweet!

I was thinking about this also.

but I was thinkning of having Many Shot be a pervent chance to Proc a volley and as the BAB increases it ups the number of arrows fired and the chance to launch a volley. Ranger Capstone could grant a 10-15% chance to increase this and maybe Deepwoods Sniper could have an ability attached to the Proc rate as well. Also since Kensai are masters of weapons they'd have a smaller increase as well.

Aesop

[geoffhanna]

The new information from Eladrin earlier in this thread shows to me that there seems to be something quite nifty going on behind the scenes - where the results of the physics check isn't just 'here's the nearest mob' but rather 'here is a list of the closest mobs'. This means that if a main hand strike kills a mob (e.g. a vorpal, or a quivering palm, or an assassinate), then doublestrike or offhand attacks still have a chance to kill the 'next in line'. Of course this same physics check would be needed for glancing blows so it makes sense that the technology is already in place.

I caught that too. That _may_ mitigate some of the negative impact of this change. But this is speculative and assumes how it will really apply. Of course, some of our panic was speculative too, as we assumed only one target and now it appears multiples are at least possible.

My wants are simple.

• I want combat to remain active and fun and "lifelike" (unlike for example Conan where combat is actively button-pushy but not fun and not at all "real")
• I have a lot of DEX weapon finesse TWF builds. I don't want to have to TR them all to get into elite raids and epic groups
• I don't want to have to buy khopeshes and completely maximized TWF in order to be able to do it effectively at all

Do all that, get rid of lag, and I am happy. However you do it.

[zed1]

By this same logic I think we should do away with Gtwf after all that closes up alot of options as well. I disagree that Stwf closes up options or builds any more so then the other twf feats.

STWF would largely benefit elven kensai fighters, who started with a 16 dexterity because they didn't have a +2 tome on hand when they rolled their characters. Such a toon could easily meet the dexterity requirements (by running the usual raids 20 times), and have the extra feats to fit it in with no issues.

Wait a second... I'm all for it!!!

[maddmatt70]

Any chance we can speed up BASE ranged combat?


Then we can make the Ranger Capstone +25% double attack chance? and the corrosponding Arcane Archer/Deepwood Sniper ToD sets increase double attack chance? I am not sure of what to do, but it seems like double attack is a good oppertunity to fix ranged combat.


How about Many Shot adds a passive 100% double attack instead of its normal effect? Seems to fit the feat description fairly well. Then the ranger 25% capstone (and perhaps other PrE enhancements and sets) increase the double attack chance further past 100% allowing for a possible triple attack?


So a level 20 ranger with manyshot will have a 125% chance to double attack... Meaning= will fire 2 arrows per shot, but 1 in 4 shots will fire 3! Seems preety sweet!

I would urge caution on any speed up of ranged attacks. Alot of players do not realize how powerful range combat is especially if you use improved precise properly. If you ugrade range combat too much it becomes the dominant form of combat which is a dramatic change for DDO. Your suggestion is overpowering. Right now I run my archer on epics and outkill the other melee a decent portion of the time and do more dps then other characters. Both are due to improve precise shot. I agree with the dev's decision to not make arcane archer apply with repeaters which would have surely tipped the balance to range combat.

[maddmatt70]

STWF would largely benefit elven kensai fighters, who started with a 16 dexterity because they didn't have a +2 tome on hand when they rolled their characters. Such a toon could easily meet the dexterity requirements (by running the usual raids 20 times), and have the extra feats to fit it in with no issues.

Wait a second... I'm all for it!!!

I highly doubt that at this point a 19 dex would be required. I do not think the devs could hand out stacks of lesser reincarnates to various player accounts. They could give a free feat change to all characters or something similiar.