Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Towrn]

My arcane archer build has 6 levels of ranger and, apparently since I said Im an arcane archer, does not have Tempest.

Just saying.

Again, we're talking about TWFing here. Please keep your examples on point.
Perhaps I should have said "show me a melee build with Ranger 6 that isn't a Tempest" so as to weed out any potential detractors.
My point still stands.
On a melee toon, which is what we're talking about here with the 130+ pages of TWF nerf comments, I'd assumed that people would read that in context.

Apparently the need to prove someone wrong on a point that was implied but not specifically stated is more important than the discussion at hand.
I will now *entertain* the notion that I should have reworded that post, but only insofar as to exclude archers, as I assumed would have been understood.

That's the point, my build DOES also use TWF. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

I don't post things in serious threads just to prove someone wrong.

What's the point?

[Kaldaka]

Here's what I think is about to happen:


They are going to offer +6 hearts of wood at an extra low 1500 Turbine points in the DDO store!!

[grodon9999]

We've had this lag for years. Years! I'd rather deal with the usual than all this nerfing nonsense.

/signed. Keep the lag.

[Drfirewater79]

My arcane archer build has 6 levels of ranger and, apparently since I said Im an arcane archer, does not have Tempest.

Just saying.

some of the best rangers in the game who actually range go 6 ranger rest fighter elven arcane archer.

more feats more benfits and free manyshot .. you can go elven arcane archer and kensai and get awesome dps both dual wielding and ranged with that build but not many know its better.

[Kaldaka]

OK if I have a tempest 1 splash (say fighter 12/ranger 6/monk 2), what would the point be in having Greater Two weapon fighting feat since it would be actually less procs than the tempest I???


I is confused.

[Cyr]

Again, you're oversimplifying.
Anyone taking Tempst I is going for TWF already.
As such, TWF and ITWF are interchangable with Dodger and Mobility as far as the requirements are concerned. You were going to take the TWF feats anyway, so getting them for free is a trade off for Dodge and Mobility. That leaves the cost of Tempest at a single feat.
Essentially, that feat becomes the following:

<Random Feat>
Requirements: Dexterity 13, Base Attack Bonus +4
Usage: Passive
Description: Your training has greatly improved your ability to fight with two weapons at once while on the move, granting a 10% bonus to produce an attack from your off-hand and a +2 shield bonus to armor class when two-weapon fighting. Additionally, you suffer no penalty to your attack roll when moving and attacking.

When you later take GTWF, that extra v10% makes it's impact over not taking Tempest.
Not as gimped as people would make it sound.

It would be fairly messed up for me to say...

<Kensai 1>
Cost: Some AP
Benefits: You gain the benefits of 2 toughness feats. You gain +1 to hit with one category of weapon and +2 damage with that same category of weapon. You gain +1 to hit and damage (before multipliers) to attacks with one type of weapon. You gain an extra action boost and other kensai "stuff".

OMG Kensai 1 is the best EVER!

This is the reason why lumping in class features with PrE's is not correct. If you do that you have to consider all the benefits six levels of an alternative class gives you.

Tempest 1 gives you 10% extra off hand hooks now that lets you get a higher off hand hook percentage then you could without it. The last part is the only selling point for it. You then have to run the comparative dps numbers to see if this makes it worth getting. Since off hand hooks do less damage then your main hand (presuming comparable weapons in both hands of course) it is less then a 5% dps increase. Anything that adds 1 damage per swing to both hands is about equal if you do ~40 damage per swing with your off hand hooks.

[Sneakee]

Is this the Monkey Grip thread?

[REALb0r3d]

We're talking about TWF, it's safe to assume ranger 6 = Tempest 1.

If it's number of swings/minute that are fouling things up, can't the just change Tempest I/Right Capstone to 10% chance on every attack to yeild a double-strike? That'll slow down the incoming attacks without gimping anyone's DPS. Same with windstance based on it's speed. Rangers and Monks are screwed without our high attack rates.

Honestly, I'd rather live with the lag than any of this nonsense.

I like this idea. Take all the capstones, all the alacrity, all the 100% all the time speed bonuses and throw them onto the pile of % additions to double strike.

Tempest 1 : +10% double strike
Tempest 3 : +5% double strike

WS 1-4 : 2.5-10% double strike

Fighter Capstone : 10% double strike

ETC...

This keeps you guys from destroying the feel of connecting with a hit in combat. Slows the pace of rolls, and allows for piggybacking physics collision for up to 3 hits on one detection.

[Towrn]

some of the best rangers in the game who actually range go 6 ranger rest fighter elven arcane archer.

more feats more benfits and free manyshot .. you can go elven arcane archer and kensai and get awesome dps both dual wielding and ranged with that build but not many know its better.

Exactly, although mine is a frenzied 2 Barb arcane archer. Even with the nerf as it has been put forth in this thread, the build will do a ton of damage in either ranged mode OR TWF mode.

-20% to the melee does suck, but for this specific build, it doesn't hurt like some might think it would.

[Drfirewater79]

Tempest should have had a high DEX requirement. Tempests are supposed to be Drizzt, a 90 pound elf not a Warforged monster with 40+ STR. That's the cause of the unbalance.

But is their really an unbalance at all? Full rangers DO NOT out-DPS fighters. 12/6/2s do not out-DPS fighter 20s.

I know a warforged ranger with a 34 str that would put that to the test in current tempest builds tempest III dual wielding Min II kopeshes and lightning II Kopeshes when he feels like it ... and a decent ac but a ton of hps as he isnt really ac spec'd

with dual wielding and a maxed out str a ranger with tempest can do WAY more damage then a dual wielding fighter with the one out being kensai which power surge doesnt last long at all and is limited use and the increase in crit range is only modifier that allows fighters to stand a chance vs rangers ... that and capstone for fighters which only brings it closer for non kensai fighters.

.. the only DEX requirement in the source game for tempest is the dex for the TWF feats. Of course, in PnP you might never see a tome, let alone have a merchant for them..

Of course, in PnP you can qualify for Tempest from a number of base classes - it bugs me always that I can't be a rogue tempest in DDO... for example.

yeah i always hated the must be this class to take benifit of prestige BS that happens in DDO .. . there should have been more elven arcane archer type things ... like dwarven kensai or warfoged frenzy or halfling assassin ..

this would add more flavor to race choice and at least you wouldnt be forced to deal with minimal options based on class.

[Calebro]

That's the point, my build DOES also use TWF. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

I don't post things in serious threads just to prove someone wrong.

What's the point?

That wasn't directed at you, but rather in general.
Every single example to prove that Tempest I and Ranger 6 aren't intertchangable has been an Arcane Archer.

This only proves my point that in a thread with 140+ pages devoted to TWFing, the AA examples are inconsequential.
My original point stands. Back on topic.

[TreknaQudane]

Tempest should have had a high DEX requirement. Tempests are supposed to be Drizzt, a 90 pound elf not a Warforged monster with 40+ STR. That's the cause of the unbalance.

Thought he was a Dervish not a Tempest *runs for cover*

[Zenako]

/momentary derail....

Was the Lag lower this weekend ? With all the action on this thread I am sure that many players spent more time here than actually gaming... which would in turn lower the expected peak loading of a holiday weekend...

/un-derail....


Eladrin, while I am sure some of the concepts you are thinking about are stand alone ones, many of them probably only work well when viewed thru the perspective of overall game changes. For example, a goal of lowering melee DPS by 15% AND also lower mob HP by 15% for example with the intention of bringing Direct Damage spells from casters more into play might be in the thinking. We have part 1 of that thought tree in this thread and have only been able to speculate about parts 2 and 3.

At least hinting around on the grand scheme would have aleviate some of the angst for some players.

[grodon9999]

I know a warforged ranger with a 34 str that would put that to the test in current tempest builds tempest III dual wielding Min II kopeshes and lightning II Kopeshes when he feels like it ... and a decent ac but a ton of hps as he isnt really ac spec'd

Ahhh you mentioned the other broken part of the equation, the Khopesh. I'm part of that problem

My Ranger is typically 36+ STR with Epic Buffs, I'm very familiar with the damage output. DPS calcs all say rangers are behind in DPS, we don't fight in MS Office so I stick with the only valid test: Combat. TWF Kensai 20s and Monster builds get the aggro, even against favored enemies. Against non-FEs forget it.

This is assuming equally-equipped.

with dual wielding and a maxed out str a ranger with tempest can do WAY more damage then a dual wielding fighter with the one out being kensai which power surge doesnt last long at all and is limited use and the increase in crit range is only modifier that allows fighters to stand a chance vs rangers ... that and capstone for fighters which only brings it closer for non kensai fighters.

No, he cannot. There are countless forum posts and DPS calcs that say otherwise. 8 Power surges and haste boosts are enough to last any fight in the game. The seeker, speed, higher STR, etc . . . all give higher DPS. I need to turn off Power-Attack in epic, a Fighter will have enough to-hit to not.

[grodon9999]

/momentary derail....

Was the Lag lower this weekend ? With all the action on this thread I am sure that many players spent more time here than actually gaming... which would in turn lower the expected peak loading of a holiday weekend...

I saw no lag in Epic dragon or the two Shrouds I was in this weekend. I'm on Ghallanda.

[Cyr]

That wasn't directed at you, but rather in general.
Every single example to prove that Tempest I and Ranger 6 aren't intertchangable has been an Arcane Archer.

This only proves my point that in a thread with 140+ pages devoted to TWFing, the AA examples are inconsequential.
My original point stands. Back on topic.

It is an alternative PrE for the same class. Instead of tempest 1 you could get access to AA and 3 more feats to use. Alternatively, you could not take ANY ranger PrE and have those three feats free for other more much more useful feats then dodge, mobility, and spring attack.

The thread is about the changes proposed by Eladrin. They effect a lot more then just twf toons. They also effect all build choices as they stack up to each other.

[krud]

So, curious, wouldn't getting 100% offhand attack essentially be the same as we currently have? .

No. The base attack rate for the main hand is 88/min. Tempest 1 gives 97/min.

currently we get as many off hand attacks as the main hand, or 97/min for tempest 1. As proposed the 100% would be based on the base attack speed, or 88/min for the offhand.

Also, tempest 3 gives one extra main hand attack for every four attacks. It essentially gives you 121 main hand attacks. The current proposal would drop that number as well.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

For trash mobs, a monk's ability to quickly swing vorpal kamas or stunning wraps is what made them worthwhile. At first, the idea of a 10% chance double strike ToD sounded like it might make up for it (for dark monks anyways... light monks are still screwed). But now that I've read some more, it sounds like even the double strike ToD isn't happening, since that attack is handled differently than regular attacks. I guess all monks get is the ability to stun the same mob twice? *rolleyes*

ToD still applies with a wind4 10% chance of doublestrike on mainhand. Stunning blow and fist apply the same 10% and so there's a 10% of the mob having to make a double save.

The new information from Eladrin earlier in this thread shows to me that there seems to be something quite nifty going on behind the scenes - where the results of the physics check isn't just 'here's the nearest mob' but rather 'here is a list of the closest mobs'. This means that if a main hand strike kills a mob (e.g. a vorpal, or a quivering palm, or an assassinate), then doublestrike or offhand attacks still have a chance to kill the 'next in line'. Of course this same physics check would be needed for glancing blows so it makes sense that the technology is already in place.

This monks remain quite well off (except the 14% dps loss!) with their special 'one punch' attacks given they now all have that extra 10% chance of hitting again.

Garth

[Delacroix21]

Any chance we can speed up BASE ranged combat?


Then we can make the Ranger Capstone +25% double attack chance? and the corrosponding Arcane Archer/Deepwood Sniper ToD sets increase double attack chance? I am not sure of what to do, but it seems like double attack is a good oppertunity to fix ranged combat.


How about Many Shot adds a passive 100% double attack instead of its normal effect? Seems to fit the feat description fairly well. Then the ranger 25% capstone (and perhaps other PrE enhancements and sets) increase the double attack chance further past 100% allowing for a possible triple attack?


So a level 20 ranger with manyshot will have a 125% chance to double attack... Meaning= will fire 2 arrows per shot, but 1 in 4 shots will fire 3! Seems preety sweet!

[Consumer]

I know a warforged ranger with a 34 str that would put that to the test in current tempest builds tempest III dual wielding Min II kopeshes and lightning II Kopeshes when he feels like it ... and a decent ac but a ton of hps as he isnt really ac spec'd

with dual wielding and a maxed out str a ranger with tempest can do WAY more damage then a dual wielding fighter with the one out being kensai which power surge doesnt last long at all and is limited use and the increase in crit range is only modifier that allows fighters to stand a chance vs rangers ... that and capstone for fighters which only brings it closer for non kensai fighters.

Wow you are so far off.

A Kensai Fighter will out DPS a tempest ranger without even using powersurge. You can take the capstone, powersurge and kensai III's extra crit range away from the Fighter and he can still keep up with the tempest ranger.