Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[maximus123123]

So with TWF nerfed (and ranged dead since Beta) what's the point in making anything other than THF barbs?

So here is party makeup at end game:
4 thf barbs
1 cleric
1 caster

or raids:
9 thf barbs
1 cleric
1 bard
1 caster

Epic is boring (takes minutes to kill a single mob). That's not challenging...that's grinding. And with THF Barbs being officially made kings of DPS there will be no variety in character building either.

I mean what's the point in making say an elven ranger? Ranged combat? Dexterity bonuses?

I've quit and come back many times. Each time with the promise that ranged was finally improved...sorry this is the last straw... I hate THF and this game is no longer for me...

This is not the way DnD is supposed to be...

[vVAnjilaVv]

I have one suggestion which has no need to change game mechanics, put faster cpus and/or increase bandwidth limit per client ( come on, a limit of 20kbps for each client is way too low, even the ancient ultima online has a higher limit )

That's already been suggested numerous times in this thread...unfortunately the main reason they are doing this is to nerf TWF....not fix lag.

[maximus123123]

You do need to fix lag but sneaking a nerf in there to allegedly fix lag isn't convincing.

[Razcar]

This is exactly what I was thinking when I first posted in this thread but got the tinfoil hat ban

I mean come on they just happen to announce the release of a new brand of heart of wood and this announcement on the same day

If they would had announced "Hearts of Wood +6 - The Tempest Eraser Special Edition" I would have also started to become suspicous... but maybe the +5 is just a smokescreen?

[FluffyCalico]

If they would had announced "Hearts of Wood +6 - The Tempest Eraser Special Edition" I would have also started to become suspicous... but maybe the +5 is just a smokescreen?

Why make a +6 when they can sell you 2 +5s !

[vVAnjilaVv]

As someone has stated before, I don't know why they don't just come off it and sell +20's

[Natashaelle]

Just going to check in one more time. Has anyone confirmed whether STWF would require higher dex than GTWF?

In D&D, STWF requires the same DEX as GTWF ; 19. GTWF in DDO requires DEX 17.

There has been no confirmation whatsoever that the requirements of STWF would be either 17 or 19 ; although the lower number would feel more internally consistent.

[vVAnjilaVv]

In D&D, STWF requires the same DEX as GTWF ; 19. GTWF in DDO requires DEX 17.

There has been no confirmation whatsoever that the requirements of STWF would be either 17 or 19 ; although the lower number would feel more internally consistent.

I think if they have any prayer of making this work they are going to have to make STWF base DEX 17 and re-work the BaB requirements while they are at it.......possibly changed to
ITWF BaB 5
GTWF BaB 10
STWF BaB 15.

[maximus123123]

This just kills variety of character builds.

Unless you're building a caster, cleric, or bard, there is no reason to make a DPS character anything but a THF Barbarian with an Epic Sword of Shadows (30% chance for 400+dmg and up to 800dmg on a 19 or 20 roll).

But it's TWF that they want to nerf?

[Natashaelle]

I have to disagree Natashaelle. I have never seen anything remotely close to the DPS lag we suffer on the US service on the European. And I've played on both the last six months. And I played the raids with fully greensteeled-out parties on both servers (Thelanis and Devourer), and the same software versions.

On the US servers, in Shroud and ToD it begins with the sound effects starting to synch, to a staccato. Then you stop seeing other melees' animations - it looks like they just stand still. Then the boss stops moving one his screen. You will still see you damage numbers. Sometimes everything freezes, including your animations.

This is usually when the healer cannot get their heals through. And after a 5-10 second freeze like this, the software catches up, deals you all the damage you should had gotten in those 10 seconds and you're dead. If you haven't played raids on the US servers, in well equipped groups, you cannot imagine what a show-stopper this is really.

I have seen all of these in Europe, and DPS lag is a constant companion in the abovementioned raids ; although I will admit that your descriptions appear to show that the problem is worse on the well populated US servers than on the sparsely populated Euro ones.

Thank you for this extra input

[FluffyCalico]

In D&D, STWF requires the same DEX as GTWF ; 19. GTWF in DDO requires DEX 17.

There has been no confirmation whatsoever that the requirements of STWF would be either 17 or 19 ; although the lower number would feel more internally consistent.

When DDO first came out and the cap was 10 the ddo site had STWF listed at 19 dex.

[osirisisis]

One of the major issues that we’ve been working on is the dps lag problem in high level content (especially raid content). We’re attacking this problem from many angles, and since some of the changes we’re considering will have significant impact on many characters, we’re interested in your feedback before it goes to Lamannia or live. We're trying to aggressively attack the issues that cause these lag problems and are interested in feedback regarding how aggressively we should be attempting to tackle them.

My post is a bit more technical than I normally write for public consumption, but I want to make the issues and the reasons we’re considering these changes extremely clear.

Some people may have noticed that problems occur most often when there are many monks or two weapon fighting characters that are loaded with many on-hit effects attacking en masse. These characters currently perform many attacks very quickly, and each attack is pretty heavy performance-wise. Rather than attack the problem by changing common heavy-load equipment, we’ve already taken some steps to optimize the way we perform attacks, and are considering the following changes to reduce overall performance loads:

Currently a single two weapon fighting attack makes a physics detection check with your main hand, followed by a second detection check for your off hand (roughly 0.15 seconds after the first one). Instead of making multiple physics checks, all two weapon fighting attacks (weapons or unarmed) would now make a single check for your main hand attack, and would “piggyback” on that detection check and have a chance to proc (trigger) an off-hand attack based on the number of two weapon fighting feats (or related enhancements) you possess. Off-hand attacks would have a chance to proc on any main hand attack now, instead of being predetermined on certain attacks. Having more TWF feats increases the % chance of proccing an off-hand attack.

We would now assume that if your opponent was within range for your first attack, it will still be in range 0.15 seconds later. We also go about determining whether or not a particular swing gets an off-hand attack in a much cleaner manner than before.

We’re also considering introducing a new mechanic to replace some speed bonus effects, called double strike:

A character with a double strike chance has a chance to make an additional attack roll with their main hand weapon any time they make a main hand attack, on the target of the first attack. (Note that two handed weapons count as “in the main hand” for these purposes.)

The Fighter Alacrity capstone, and the Paladin spell Zeal would be changed to a +10% bonuses to double strike.
A TWF Paladin that Smites something under the effect of Zeal would attack with the main hand, have a 10% chance to attack with the main hand again, and would have a chance (based on TWF feats) to attack with the off hand in one sequence. Level 20 Fighters with the capstone would simply always hit twice 10% of the time with their main hands. For a future update, we’re considering revisiting some old items (such as Jorgundal’s Collar, which currently doesn’t stack with Haste) and replacing the effects with a double strike effect.

For those that are interested in the “how does that help? You’re still making 11 attacks in 10 swings” – double strikes, like the proposed off-hand attacks, would bypass the additional physics detects and secondary characteristics of normal attacks such as glancing blows, while still providing an increase to overall damage over time. It would have the advantage over speed boosts of sometimes proccing on special attacks, and opens up a new itemization and enhancement pathway. (Warchanters, for instance, are likely to end up with a double strike song in a future update.)

Proposed Numbers:
A character with no two weapon fighting feats has a base 20% chance to proc off-hand attacks.
The Two Weapon Fighting feat grants a +15% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.
The Improved Two Weapon Fighting feat grants a +10% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.
The Greater Two Weapon Fighting feat grants a +10% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.
Monk Air stances now grant a +5%/+10%/+15%/+20% insight bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks instead of an insight bonus to attack speed. (Enhancement bonus to attack speed remains.)
Ranger Tempest now grants a +10%/+20%/+30% bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks when dual wielding instead of a bonus to attack speed or granting additional off-hand attacks.
Monk Air Stance and Ranger Tempest now stack with each other for these purposes.
Attacks with two handed weapons while moving no longer perform Glancing Blows.

Fighter Alacrity (capstone) now grants a +10% bonus to double attack with the main hand instead of a 10% speed increase.
The Paladin spell Zeal now grants a +10% Sacred bonus to double attack with the main hand instead of a 10% speed increase.

Things like the Shield Bonus and to-hit penalty reductions that Tempest grants when wielding two weapons, or the enhancement bonuses to speed from Wind Stance remain unchanged.

For example, a Ranger 18 (Tempest III) / Monk 2 in Wind Stance I would have a 90% chance to proc off-hand attacks per swing, while a completely unskilled character would only generate off-hand attacks 20% of the time. A Monk 20 in Wind Stance IV would have a 75% chance to trigger off-hand attack hooks.

I won’t hide that these proposed changes do reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting. Skipping the extreme outlier of the Epic Sword of Shadows (we got a little carried away there, didn’t we?), estimated damage output over time for the two styles should be extremely close to each other if we go this route. (Which style is superior ends up being heavily dependent on your character's abilities.)

It’s likely that we’ll change Glancing Blows to operate in a similar manner in the future as well (chance to proc based on feats/enhancements rather than guaranteed on swing X), but right now I have to stay pretty focused on TWF and monk unarmed combat.

These are not the only things we’re currently investigating, and will not solve all of the dps lag issues - it’s one of many steps we’re taking to pursue them. I also highly recommend reading this post and thread - especially the part about intra-DAT fragmentation[step 3] if your install is a year or more old - if you’re suffering serious problems, it may help with some client-side issues.

We wanted to get your reactions and comments to this now though, before (and after) it hits Lamannia.

---

Some sample attack percentages with this system (assuming you took all possible available feats and enhancements) would be:

INVALID CHART FOLLOWS:
Build				Main-hand	Off-hand
20 Ranger (Tempest 3)		100%		85%
20 Monk (Wind Stance 4)		100%		75%
20 Fighter (Alacrity)		110%		55%
20 Paladin (Zeal)		110%		55%
20 [Other]			100%		55%
12 Ftr/6 Rng/2 Mnk		100%		70%
15 Pal/3 Mnk/2 [Any] (unarmed)	110%		60%
14 Pal/6 Rng			110%		65%
18 Rgr/2 Mnk			100%		90%

---

Edit:
Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:

	Doublestrike	Bonus	Main hand	Off hand
No feats	0	20%	100%		20%
TWF		0	+20%	100%		40%
ITWF		0	+20%	100%		60%
GTWF		0	+20%	100%		80%
STWF		0	+20%	100%		100%
Tempest I	0	+10%	100%		90%
Tempest II	0	+10%	100%		100% 
Tempest III	+5%*	0	105%		100%
Wind IV		+10%	0	110%		80%
Zeal		+10%	0	110%		80%
Alacrity	+10%	0	110%		80%

* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

Why should players have to deal with getting nerfed and stare at more mindless DPS gazing instead turbine spending more money on better hardware that can handle the load? With a 160 million dollar warner bros acquirement of the company, I think they can invest some coin in better hardware, there going to need it in the future anyway.

But that doesn't make cents (no pun intended)

Opinion B

First nerf sword of shadows or you dont even have a imbalance case.
Second even if you did nerf Sword of Shadows I would say the balance issue is not in the DPS in that 2wf cost feats(khopesh and oversized) , dex points, and resources more so then 2hf
3rd if you ask me the imbalance is in the vorpal effect and other power 5 effects in that 2wf can vorpel almost 75% more effectively which is still pretty viable even with all the new death ward thats been added to the game.

So:

1. Slow the game down 15% so the servers can handle it.
2. Lower all mobs across the board hit points by 20% to off set for slowing the game down and the grind burn factor its going to create.
3. Raise the mobs attack damage by 15% to off set the challenge imbalance that lowing there hit points created (15% not 20% to make up for faster reaction with healing challange)
4. Give glanceing blow and cleave a seperate effect dice roll when landed to see if they get an effect proc. Example you cleave 3 mobs and roll a 20 with a vorpel and all 3 lose there heads, or you hit 1 undead with a 2 handed disruptor and glance 2 others now all 3 need to take a DC for disruption.

Severs have less lag, Quest take a tiny less time for a tiny less grind, quest have a tiny bit more challenge to them to make up for less grind, turbine saves money, players dont get there hard work nerfed, and 2hf get a slight boost. See everyone happy.

Only set back:
O ya and green steal gains more ground on its gultanis ADD rules set perversion imbalance over the random loot table vorpel, but why should the trend stop now.

Green steals been imbalance for 2 years but who cares here have an epic S.O.S we can fix magic bloat with bigger and better magic bloat.... but as soon as turbine may have to spend some coin on new severs its 2wf vs 2hf imbalance that needs to be addressed..........come on........

[maximus123123]

Maybe it will solve lag but not the way they intended.

When all those who have invested so heavily in dual greensteel Mineral II's get nerfed and decide to quit, then server stress will be reduced by the reduced player population

[Aesop]

In D&D, STWF requires the same DEX as GTWF ; 19. GTWF in DDO requires DEX 17.

There has been no confirmation whatsoever that the requirements of STWF would be either 17 or 19 ; although the lower number would feel more internally consistent.

you wanna cite your source for that. Considering that to the best of my knowledge the feat doesn't exist or if it does then to quote Mandy Patinkin..."I do not think it means what you think it means"

the Feat for TWF after GTWF is

PERFECT TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING [EPIC]
Prerequisites: Dex 25, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting.

Benefit: The character can make as many attacks with his or her off-hand weapon as with his or her primary weapon, using the same base attack bonus. The character still takes the normal penalties for fighting with two weapons.

Normal: Without this feat, a character can only get a single attack with an off-hand weapon (or two attacks with an off-hand weapon if he or she has Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, or three attacks with an off-hand weapon if he or she has Greater Two-Weapon Fighting).

and this one has Epic levels as its Prerequisite and a dex of 25.


STWF should not be in the game at all. We're not suppposed to have 100% off hand attacks. Getting there through Tempest is even a little squiggy.

How about having Attack Sequence add a bonus instead.

0/5/10/10 is the attack bonus (I think) based on attack sequence

How about having either a +0/+5/+10/+10% bonus so that later sequence attacks get that much closer to 100%


STWF simply screws certain builds. Either by way of limiting Feat selection that much further or by limiting requirements like BAB or minimum dex requirement. Tempest is a supreme TWF PrE. It should make for a superior TWF not a just as good one. This is not to say that Tempest should blow everyone out of the water completely but if they get 90-100% TWF and Kensai only get 85-95% I can see that as reasonable. There should not be a spread for any group (with the full feat compliment) that is more than 20% and ways that can buff them up external of feat and PrEs should be explored. Additionally Penalties can be explored as well... perhaps Movement penalties that Spring Attack reduces



Aesop

[FluffyCalico]

you wanna cite your source for that. Considering that to the best of my knowledge the feat doesn't exist or if it does then to quote Mandy Patinkin..."I do not think it means what you think it means"

the Feat for TWF after GTWF is

and this one has Epic levels as its Prerequisite and a dex of 25.

STWF should not be in the game at all. We're not suppposed to have 100% off hand attacks. Getting there through Tempest is even a little squiggy.

1) After Burros post I looked through some old DnD books and PDFs to refresh my memory.
2) PTWF is an epic feat that requires 25 dex on that you are right that grants offhand attacks equal to however many main hand attacks you have
3) STWF is a NON-epic feat that that requires BAB 16 and DEX 19 that grants 1 additional offhand attack. If you gained an extra main hand through other means you would not get yet another offhand through STWF like you would with PTWF.
4) STWF is mainly a feat used in monster manuals, melee supplements and additional race supplements but it does exist and is NOT epic feat.
5) DDO for along time had STWF listed at 16BAB and 19 dex on their page as well and removed it later when they decided not to add it.
6) So STWF had been part of DDO in the beginning, you just could not take it due to the cap being 10, and part of DnD for even longer. So yes it does belong.

[Razcar]

We're not suppposed to have 100% off hand attacks. Getting there through Tempest is even a little squiggy.

Then we shouldn't have THF Glancing Blows either. Or the gazillion other house rules that exists in DDO.

[Natashaelle]

you wanna cite your source for that. Considering that to the best of my knowledge the feat doesn't exist or if it does then to quote Mandy Patinkin..."I do not think it means what you think it means"

Here, for example -- and there are other sources available, if you just google for it...

http://dndvault.ign.com/View.php?vie...e.Detail&id=65

[Pyromaniac]

I believe that better hardware would solve the lag problem. It was downgraded at least once or twice before the recent 'upgrade'. Also I believe we're not going to get better hardware.

Lag showed up once the hardware started getting its downgrades. Coincidence? I think not.

[vVAnjilaVv]

STWF simply screws certain builds. Either by way of limiting Feat selection that much further or by limiting requirements like BAB or minimum dex requirement. Tempest is a supreme TWF PrE. It should make for a superior TWF not a just as good one. This is not to say that Tempest should blow everyone out of the water completely but if they get 90-100% TWF and Kensai only get 85-95% I can see that as reasonable. There should not be a spread for any group (with the full feat compliment) that is more than 20% and ways that can buff them up external of feat and PrEs should be explored. Additionally Penalties can be explored as well... perhaps Movement penalties that Spring Attack reduces



Aesop

STWF would be cool if they changed the first feat...TWF...to maybe an enhancement or even give it free...TWF that is not STWF.

[Aesop]

Here, for example -- and there are other sources available, if you just google for it...

http://dndvault.ign.com/View.php?vie...e.Detail&id=65

That's not a pnp database nor is it even WotC.


The Feat is a completely made up thing