Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Dentali]

I know people who have quit over the lag. They might come back if the lag went.

Garth

The thing is with that, Turbine CAN fix the lag without nerfing the DPS, therefore gaining more players while keeping the ones they have now.

[vVAnjilaVv]

I'd just like to step in once again and say chill out everyone.....there is no change yet....this isn't even in testing on Lama yet.....there is no indication of what they still might add or adjust.

I'd have to say that until this is in testing on Lama, a lot of people are just getting angry over nothing. It's good to speak your mind on it, but this still actually has to happen.

[FluffyCalico]

I'd just like to step in once again and say chill out everyone.....there is no change yet....this isn't even in testing on Lama yet.....there is no indication of what they still might add or adjust.

I'd have to say that until this is in testing on Lama, a lot of people are just getting angry over nothing. It's good to speak your mind on it, but this still actually has to happen.

Got it backwards, people are speaking their mind because it does NOT have to happen and that want to make that very clear.

[vVAnjilaVv]

The thing is with that, Turbine CAN fix the lag without nerfing the DPS, therefore gaining more players while keeping the ones they have now.

You have to keep in mind one other thing tho...Turbine is also trying to fix popularity.......this is the beginning of probably a more mainstream MMO player friendly model rather than a niche one.

I'm not saying I am for or against it, but they will probably get a lot more people if complexity of gameplay and character creation is toned down.

I really am not speaking for myself, or the people that were here long before EU...whom I am one of......but thinking about what Turbine and WB probably wants for the future of this game...and one of those things is more customers.

Even if Turbine goes thru with the way this is proposed right now......only a portion of the pre-EU playerbase is going to quit, and they have already opened the door they need to replace them....I don't like saying it, but we are kind of in a boat without any oars, engine, or sail. Not too mention this is only the beginning of changes IMO...there are probably a few more on the horizon.

[Visty]

I dunno if its been asked but if this happens is there a short window That dungeon alert can be turned off to test and see how the lag is with your intended fix and no da

wont happen

[bobbryan2]

I'd just like to step in once again and say chill out everyone.....there is no change yet....this isn't even in testing on Lama yet.....there is no indication of what they still might add or adjust.

I'd have to say that until this is in testing on Lama, a lot of people are just getting angry over nothing. It's good to speak your mind on it, but this still actually has to happen.

It doesn't actually have to happen.

Somehow... I really doubt ToD part 2 is being lagged out by monks...

Probably because I'm told most parties won't accept more than 1 of them.

[Borror0]

Well, in my groups, the EXACT same number of people beating on Horoth in 3 as on the Master in 2.

Even then, the attack rate is 15-20% lower.

[bobbryan2]

Even then, the attack rate is 15-20% lower.

Really? I'd figure it's higher.... because there's no lag slowing them down.

[Auran82]

Because, blades have some weird AI/damage calculations that are killing that encounter...

The only correlation I can see between the 2 heaviest 'DPS lag' parts of the game (Shroud part 4, ToD part 2) is the blades and the shadow fiend auras, obviously I didn't program the game, but if attacking means that every swing does a calculation to see if you hit the enemy, even if the swings are 0.15 seconds apart (which sounds kinda wasteful from a resource point of view and you would think could be optimized a fair bit) who's to say that effects like the blades and auras aren't constantly doing a similar kind of check to see if anyone is in range of their affect to determine whether they do damage. Another spot of lag (that I notice anyway) is in shroud part 3 when the blades are travelling around the map, I know there has been a number of times I get hit a heap of times by blades that I can't see because they don't appear to have caught up to me yet, but obviously to the server they have.

To be honest though, if the issue was that simple and someone at turbine hadn't already thought of that and removed the blades/fiends from those encounters to test, then someone in their Q&A department needs a kick up the backside.

One thing I do have to ask though, if Eladrin is still reading at this point, have the testers been able to actually recreate the DPS lag we experience on test servers or is all the changes and tests you are doing based on our feedback?

[vVAnjilaVv]

Got it backwards, people are speaking their mind because it does NOT have to happen and that want to make that very clear.

I think Turbine can gather that fact from half the number of posts that are here.

Nobody wanted grazing hits or DA niether...oh well, hopefully we will hear something official today.

[bobbryan2]

To be honest though, if the issue was that simple and someone at turbine hadn't already thought of that and removed the blades/fiends from those encounters to test, then someone in their Q&A department needs a kick up the backside.

yes

[Dentali]

You have to keep in mind one other thing tho...Turbine is also trying to fix popularity.......this is the beginning of probably a more mainstream MMO player friendly model rather than a niche one.

I'm not saying I am for or against it, but they will probably get a lot more people if complexity of gameplay and character creation is toned down.

I really am not speaking for myself, or the people that were here long before EU...whom I am one of......but thinking about what Turbine and WB probably wants for the future of this game...and one of those things is more customers.

Even if Turbine goes thru with the way this is proposed right now......only a portion of the pre-EU playerbase is going to quit, and they have already opened the door they need to replace them....I don't like saying it, but we are kind of in a boat without any oars, engine, or sail. Not too mention this is only the beginning of changes IMO...there are probably a few more on the horizon.

That's probably true, and you make a great point. However, there is no guarantee that this change will draw more players. There is no logical reason for a company to cut ties with existing customers in the HOPES that they get more from doing so, because then if they crash and burn in their ideas they have a very tiny player base made up of the few supremely loyal players and a handful of F2Pers that have no intention of ever giving Turbine another dime. I've never seen a TV add for DDO, not even once. How do they expect to draw more players if they don't even advertise the game at all, other than on the site or maybe a few other select websites? To be perfectly honest I don't think they've even thought through the financial aspect of it, which is by far the most important to any company running an MMO.

Like I said, I understand that to any company like Turbine, financial gain is the main reason for any changes over the long run. Whatever makes the most people happy is what they'll have to do, or they'll lose money and be unable to pay employees and have to shut the game down. When it comes down to it, I think they'll be forced to do that in this situation, as they probably only even made a thread because they feared the backlash that numerous people have given in the thread's contents.

DDO is not a mainstream MMO. The fact that they had to cut it to F2P with P2P options is proof of that.

[Torasin]

A few comments.

First, I would point out for all those worried about the rush to test that based on Eladrin's comments, it appears that this is being put on to Lammania along side but not part of Update 5 for testing. Please clarify if I am wrong.

Next, I think that the change to offhand swing percentages is a good change as long as they can be balanced correctly. While this is not PnP, it is (supposedly) based on the d20 3.5 ruleset, in which a character with BAB of +16 and TWF,ITWF,GTWF would get 4 main hand attacks and 3 offhand attacks per round. Translated to this new system, a vanilla full BAB character with all three feats should have a 75% chance to proc an offhand attack, rather than the 55% Eladrin has shown. This could effectively push Tempest III rangers and Wind IV monks to 100% if done correctly, leaving the two groups who should be spinning balls of hurt as spinning balls of hurt.

I also feel it is a bad comparison to pick the acknowledged top end overpowered eSOS as a THF comparison to TWF rather than greensteel as 1)it is not nearly as common as greensteel weapons, and 2)it can only be used at lvl 20 whereas greensteel THF is available at level 12ish(?). In addition, using frenzied berserker as a means to justify the power of THF is also somewhat flawed as it is not available to a large number of THF builds. Arguably, TWF outpaces THF from level 12 to level 19 (18 in the case of FBs) when greensteel weapons are available. So I think a little balancing can be tolerated.

-- Though I would like to see a de-forge for greensteel items, not only as a salve for the nerfed but so we can fix an item made incorrectly - That would be an offering from the DDO store I'd love to see

[Torasin]

Not everyone's going to be happy about this (or any other change) but I have to give Eladrin a good deal of credit as far as being on the forums and answering posts and concerns. The heads-up and discussion is more than some games have given us (cough... sony) where we would have logged in and found things nerfed regardless of feedback or even a heads up

[Auran82]

After reading through quite a bit of this thread, I can only assume the reason we are seeing these sweeping changes suggested (whether liked or not) and tied in with the suggested change to the offhand hit detection is not because they want to nerf TWF and bring it closer to THF (though this might be part of it)

I suspect they are actually trying to pretty much rewrite the system that is responsible for combat tasks like hit detection, damage rolls etc to streamline it to be better suited to the current state of the game. Another forum user mentioned (in another thread) that some time ago they monitored the packets being sent between the server and client and came to the conclusion that when you hit a mob, the server sends a separate packet for each source of damage (so on a greensteel weapon etc, that would be a fair few packets) whether this is correct or it, it does make some sense (like why flaming and flaming burst go through as separate 1d6 fire damage rolls on a non crit instead of being combined) and upon games release, doing it this way would make sense as it would have been rare back at release to have more than prefix, suffix and base damage (including smite, sneak attack etc) going through at each swing (and attacking was somewhat slower, no tempest, alcarity, even GTWF was non-existent)

The game has changed significantly since then though and maybe they want to replace that whole section of the combat system and change/improve/etc at the same time. Am I guessing? Of course. But it would not surprise me with the number of systems that have evolved massively over the last year or so.

[JOTMON]

Currently a single two weapon fighting attack makes a physics detection check with your main hand, followed by a second detection check for your off hand (roughly 0.15 seconds after the first one). Instead of making multiple physics checks, all two weapon fighting attacks (weapons or unarmed) would now make a single check for your main hand attack, and would “piggyback” on that detection check and have a chance to proc (trigger) an off-hand attack based on the number of two weapon fighting feats (or related enhancements) you possess. Off-hand attacks would have a chance to proc on any main hand attack now, instead of being predetermined on certain attacks. Having more TWF feats increases the % chance of proccing an off-hand attack.

We would now assume that if your opponent was within range for your first attack, it will still be in range 0.15 seconds later. We also go about determining whether or not a particular swing gets an off-hand attack in a much cleaner manner than before.

Question/concern...

Current system treats eac hand as a separate attack....
New system makes offhand dependant on mainhand.


1. While spring attacking jumping toward a mob using my ranger, I miss on the first strike, with this mechanic in place i also automatically miss on the offhand regardless of whether or not i come into range.

2. I kill the mob with my mainhand the offhand attack hits the next closest mob or now misses completely because the first mob is now dead.

3. I am behind 2 mobs attacking the tank, main hand is hitting one, offhand is hitting the other.. new system ??..

4. surrounded by a mass of kobolds, i am spinning in place swinging wildly with a paralyzer's, .. new system??


.15 seconds is a lot of time when dual weilding swinging in a mass mob fray, especially when utilizing spring attack.

I would rather see Glancing blows and all the lag resulting from those calculations removed from the game.

Many TWF light weapon and monk attack are dependant on speed, front# damage is typically siginifcantly lower than the THF weapons. It is only made worthwhile by making many more attacks as fast as possible. I am concerned that this will squeeze many 2wf builds into gimpness and leave many of us disgruntled.

[bobbryan2]

After reading through quite a bit of this thread, I can only assume the reason we are seeing these sweeping changes suggested (whether liked or not) and tied in with the suggested change to the offhand hit detection is not because they want to nerf TWF and bring it closer to THF (though this might be part of it)

I suspect they are actually trying to pretty much rewrite the system that is responsible for combat tasks like hit detection, damage rolls etc to streamline it to be better suited to the current state of the game. Another forum user mentioned (in another thread) that some time ago they monitored the packets being sent between the server and client and came to the conclusion that when you hit a mob, the server sends a separate packet for each source of damage (so on a greensteel weapon etc, that would be a fair few packets) whether this is correct or it, it does make some sense (like why flaming and flaming burst go through as separate 1d6 fire damage rolls on a non crit instead of being combined) and upon games release, doing it this way would make sense as it would have been rare back at release to have more than prefix, suffix and base damage (including smite, sneak attack etc) going through at each swing (and attacking was somewhat slower, no tempest, alcarity, even GTWF was non-existent)

The game has changed significantly since then though and maybe they want to replace that whole section of the combat system and change/improve/etc at the same time. Am I guessing? Of course. But it would not surprise me with the number of systems that have evolved massively over the last year or so.

I gotta say... I disagree. I read through the thread and I think they're trying to justify nerfing TWF with lag because it's something they think would be good for balance. Maybe not... but I see this more as a change of opportunity than of necessity.

[FluffyCalico]

I gotta say... I disagree. I read through the thread and I think they're trying to justify nerfing TWF with lag because it's something they think would be good for balance. Maybe not... but I see this more as a change of opportunity than of necessity.

Well don't forget the are nerfing the heck out of 2hf too. Maybe they just want to nerf all melee. Or sell respec tokens to everyone?

[Ollathir]

Question/concern...

Current system treats eac hand as a separate attack....
New system makes offhand dependant on mainhand.


1. While spring attacking jumping toward a mob using my ranger, I miss on the first strike, with this mechanic in place i also automatically miss on the offhand regardless of whether or not i come into range. No. Pysics detection first then roll to hit.

2. I kill the mob with my mainhand the offhand attack hits the next closest mob or now misses completely because the first mob is now dead. Yep

3. I am behind 2 mobs attacking the tank, main hand is hitting one, offhand is hitting the other.. new system ??.. follows the main hand.

4. surrounded by a mass of kobolds, i am spinning in place swinging wildly with a paralyzer's, .. new system?? If para is in offhand you may hit something, might not.


.15 seconds is a lot of time when dual weilding swinging in a mass mob fray, especially when utilizing spring attack.

I would rather see Glancing blows and all the lag resulting from those calculations removed from the game.

Many TWF light weapon and monk attack are dependant on speed, front# damage is typically siginifcantly lower than the THF weapons. It is only made worthwhile by making many more attacks as fast as possible. I am concerned that this will squeeze many 2wf builds into gimpness and leave many of us disgruntled.

As best as I understand

[Emili]

Even then, the attack rate is 15-20% lower.

Except ... with 3 to 4 people on master may lag out the instance as much as 6 to 8 in ToD... so less half the dps. Done so and seen so. Given that would indicate more than 50% cut would have to be done to suffice. I been in ToD with near all THF barbs/fighters - only one single twf in group - and it lagged also.

Shroud part 4? I once run on hard ... In this group 2 melee, a bard, two clerics and the rest arcane Only the fighter and my barbarian went in on harry for melee in part four ... and guess what? It lagged and felt exactly the same type of lag as if there were 5 or 6 melee on him... Those particualar quests are questionable to begin with. You can walk in part one and sometimes feel the sluggishness ... the more mob involved and the worse such get.