Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[DrNuegebauer]

No argument.


Do you really think that the implications of this are only going to directly affect those two raids?
This has server-wide implications.
It isn't just the people in the raid that affect the off-hand calculations, but everywhere. It isn't removing (just shy of) 50% of the off-hand calculations in that raid, it is removing them everywhere. If each instance was run from a different source your argument would be valid, but that isn't the case.
Reducing almost 50% of those calculations in *every* instance will help those people that need it.

Less load on the servers = less lag in those raids.

Ah yes of course.

Because it's well known that the servers were specifically set up so that the extra 50% of calculations only impact characters beating on the portals, or Harry, in the shroud.

[Cyr]

When the fighter capstone was announced which is 10% more dps for fighters, there wasn't an uproar of people threatening to leave and delete their (non fighter) characters and all that.

This was effectively a 10% dps 'nerf' for non fighter classes, just as it would be if the devs go ahead with putting stwf into the game (which helps fighters more than anyone else) along with these offhand changes. Why is this different?

Garth

Garth,

This is a very weak strawman. You know that a fighter getting 10% more dps for being pure is not making anyone else have less dps. You also know that a pure fighter was not a large portion of melee builds in the game. However, the change here is a dps nerf to many builds. The fighter change was good because it encouraged more pure fighters (not a super common sight) so it increased variablility in viable builds. This change does the opposite. It hurts existing builds directly and narrows the range of near optimal builds.

[Arlathen]

<Snip Text Detail>

Edit: We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:

                 2xStrike  Bonus    Main hand    Off hand
No feats           0      20%       100%        20%
TWF               0      +20%      100%        40%
ITWF              0      +20%      100%        60%
GTWF            0      +20%      100%        80%
STWF             0      +20%      100%        100%
Tempest I        0      +10%      100%        90%
Tempest II       0      +10%      100%        100% 
Tempest III   +5%*    0           105%        100%
Wind IV       +10%    0           110%        80%
Zeal              +10%    0           110%        80%
Alacrity        +10%    0            110%        80%

* Only when wielding two weapons.

@Eladrin

My comments are based upon the updated numbers and the list of the following suggestions. It is also made from the point of view of these changes are intended to reduce DPS Lag first and foremost.

My comments are also given in the light of my support to increase DPS of S&B and THF vs. TWF. I love the TWF fighting style (hell, even my cleric is getting it :P), but I feel for those wanting to do other fighting styles.

1) Removal of the Physics check on off-hand attacks

This makes a great deal of sense, and I personally would support tthis change. This change would not affect characters in any significant in my opinion, even if the main hand attack specifies a missed swing and thus the off hand attack is automatically a miss when it could of hit, its given back evenly when in the space of 0.15 seconds an offhand attack could of missed where the main hand attack hit.

What I can't for the life of me understand is why are not trialling or even implementing this change first without making any other/further changes?? From my point of view, as many changes that can be made with affecting the DPS mechanics you have in place should be done first before toying with the DPS mechanics.

"One change at a time" - its a good rule of testing. If this was implemented, then you would be able to measure the impact on Lag and see if the additional suggested fixes are needed to reduce the DPS Lag.

2) Implementation of the Double-Strike main-hand attack instead of certain speed increases

I have no problem with this, personally. This mechanic could be extended as well to other enhancements/abilities to give double strike bonuses instead of outright speed enhancements.

Some number crunchers may find ways to pervert this for on hit attacks such as Sneaks, Smites and Glancing Hits by maximising the number of bonus attacks, but if careful consideration is given to not allowing 'on-hit' effect get triple whammies all the time for TWF.

As a suggestion, this mechanic could be used to increase DPS of S&B and/or THF styles, such that specific S&B and THF enhancements/items/abilities/feats or whatever could be introduced to improve the Double-strike effect for these fighting styles only, and not TWF.

3) Implemetation of the Proc chance for Off-hand attacks.

My gut reaction to this was an emphatic 'No', changing all my pre-determined 'definite' attacks into a percentage based chance to seem my attacks happen... eurrghh...

Then I took off my TWF-Rulez hat and put on my I-Hate-Lag hat and can understand the idea, see the programming behind the idea and see the lightbulb-flashing-in-the-bath moment that happened when you come up with the idea.

With the standard 80% Proc Chance for all classes available (assuming GTWF), a net reduction of 20% of Off-hand DPS output is good for lag.

4) Implementation of the STWF Feat / Tempest 1/2/3 Changes

I see no need for introducing Superior Two Weapon Fighting as seperate, choosable feat. At All. Adding another feat to all everyone to get 100% Off hand chance is playing into the hands of those classes and builds with feats to spare, while those builds that have managed to squeeze in the three TWF feats but have no space for others will be left behind.

If (when?) the game moves into Epic levels, then it could be possible to introduce the Perfect Two Weapon fighting feat. This would be as the currently suggested STWF, granting another +20% Proc rate chance.

Keep the playing field level on this one.

*Yoda Voice* For Rangers though, different take, suggest I would.

Change the Ranger Off-hand bonus proc chance for Tempest 1/2/3 to 5/5/10% cumulative, so at Tempest 3 they have a full 100% Off-hand attack rate.

The current 10% improvement at level 6 has always been too huge of a bonus in my opinion, and the prestige enhancement needs balancing out to be top end heavy like some others (KotC 3, for example).

Despite the seeming boost to Rangers, they would still lose that 5th Attack overall compared to a current 18th Level Ranger, and thus contribute to the lessening of DPS lag while still offering something unique over a lvl 20 TWF Kensai Fighter.

Perfect Two Weapon Fighting for a Tempest Ranger would be the same - a 20% bonus to offhand attacks - however, as this would be a total 120%, this could be simply be implemented as a 5th Off-hand attack on the final 4th swing. In this way, the feat stays the same for all classes and non-tempest Rangers, but pushes the Tempest ranger up that one final notch - they are the exemplary Two Weapon Fighters, and this in my opinion would reflect it.

[Ollathir]

The Epic SoS is NOT overpowered. Anyone who has used one understands that it is a situational weapon: None or Low DR target, and Low or No fortification target. The epic SoS is AS powerful as a dang EPIC weapon should be.

Or do you presume our epic weapons all turn into epic siroccos?

Since when did actual gameplay experience make it's way into the discussion. Shh, you may start to confuse some folk.

[Ethias]

Garth,

This is a very weak strawman. You know that a fighter getting 10% more dps for being pure is not making anyone else have less dps. You also know that a pure fighter was not a large portion of melee builds in the game. However, the change here is a dps nerf to many builds. The fighter change was good because it encouraged more pure fighters (not a super common sight) so it increased variablility in viable builds. This change does the opposite. It hurts existing builds directly and narrows the range of near optimal builds.

I often find myself disagreeing with things you write, Cyr, but this is spot on.

I am highly considering rerolling my DWing fvs-melee focus to a more general focus, because his DPS is already pretty mediocre. If it is only going to get worse, I might as well just go in a different direction with him. I do not mind a nerf to TWF, but if that nerf is alleviated if you have an extra feat, it is frustrating, because I just do not have the feats to spare for it really. To me, it's not just about total DPS but relative; Cleric/FvS melee already do less damage than primary DPS classes (which I am not saying is a bad thing). Due to our low number of feats, this will only widen the gap (something likely to impact other classes too) even more.

[Aspenor]

I have been gone a few days, this thread has sure grown too fast for me to read it all.

In light of this change, I propose Turbine remove Weapon Finesse from the game, and make characters automatically use dex to hit if it is higher. Of course, nobody in their right mind would play a weapon finesse TWF'r anyway after this change is put in.

[Ethias]

I have been gone a few days, this thread has sure grown too fast for me to read it all.

In light of this change, I propose Turbine remove Weapon Finesse from the game, and make characters automatically use dex to hit if it is higher. Of course, nobody in their right mind would play a weapon finesse TWF'r anyway after this change is put in.

Yeah, I kinda agree with this.

[Aashrym]

Garth,

This is a very weak strawman. You know that a fighter getting 10% more dps for being pure is not making anyone else have less dps. You also know that a pure fighter was not a large portion of melee builds in the game. However, the change here is a dps nerf to many builds. The fighter change was good because it encouraged more pure fighters (not a super common sight) so it increased variablility in viable builds. This change does the opposite. It hurts existing builds directly and narrows the range of near optimal builds.

I think that's his point.

Adding STWF for fighters and rangers doesn't make other classes do less DPS either. It offers a bonus to specific classes that others won't have, like the 10% bonus.

I think he's on something more specific than the nerf in general.

Maybe my spellsinger is suddenly doesn't heal as much because radiant servants are coming!! I've been nerfed by proxy jk

[Angelus_dead]

When the fighter capstone was announced which is 10% more dps for fighters, there wasn't an uproar of people threatening to leave and delete their (non fighter) characters and all that.

Uh, when the Fighter capstone was announced, these other things came in the same release:
Tempest III
Pally Capstone
Barbarian Capstone
Mighty Rage
Frenzied Berserker III
Assassin III
Wind IV

With all of the prime damage-dealer classes getting a buff, of course there wasn't a huge outcry against just one of them.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Garth,

This is a very weak strawman. You know that a fighter getting 10% more dps for being pure is not making anyone else have less dps. You also know that a pure fighter was not a large portion of melee builds in the game. However, the change here is a dps nerf to many builds. The fighter change was good because it encouraged more pure fighters (not a super common sight) so it increased variablility in viable builds. This change does the opposite. It hurts existing builds directly and narrows the range of near optimal builds.

yup you're probably right.

I still think 15% dps isn't going to break builds though. Surely this change will encourage more thf builds when most people on the server are twf?

Garth

[Calebro]

Ah yes of course.

Because it's well known that the servers were specifically set up so that the extra 50% of calculations only impact characters beating on the portals, or Harry, in the shroud.

You're completely missing the big picture here.
When server performance improves overall, it will help to alleviate some of the stress in those instances where it was lagging and improve performance there as well.
That's.... kind of the entire point of the OP.

[SquelchHU]

When the fighter capstone was announced which is 10% more dps for fighters, there wasn't an uproar of people threatening to leave and delete their (non fighter) characters and all that.

This was effectively a 10% dps 'nerf' for non fighter classes, just as it would be if the devs go ahead with putting stwf into the game (which helps fighters more than anyone else) along with these offhand changes. Why is this different?

Garth

1: Fighters were behind in DPS. +10% is a catchup.

2: Raising one classes' DPS does not automatically raise the bar. Lowering one or more classes' DPS does not automatically lower the bar.

Therefore, Fighter +10% DPS doesn't hurt anyone else even if that did put them ahead. But affected characters -10% DPS (it's more than this) does hurt them.

Fighter +10% DPS would only be a nerf to others if enemy HP improved by 10% at the same time.

Affected characters -10% DPS would only NOT be a nerf if enemy HP decreased by exactly the same amount. And even then you still swing slower, detracting from the speedy nature of combat that makes it appealing in the first place.

[Cyr]

yup you're probably right.

I still think 15% dps isn't going to break builds though. Surely this change will encourage more thf builds when most people on the server are twf?

Garth

One major issue there. It will encourage more THF builds, but 95% of them will be 20 barb or 20 fighter due to how the mechanics are set up. Hardly a lot of variety there. It will on the flip side kill a ton of multiclass builds and twf builds for things like bards. Not sure if smite will proc on an offhand hook, if it does some twf pali's will remain for sure though.

[Calebro]

You're completely missing the big picture here.
When server performance improves overall, it will help to alleviate some of the stress in those instances where it was lagging and improve performance there as well.
That's.... kind of the entire point of the OP.

To elaborate:
You're at home on a mediocre system, downloading a large file, surfing the web with 12 different tabs open, running your anti-virus software, and streaming a movie all at the same time.
The movie is constantly stopping to buffer.
You pause the download, and what happens? The movie plays just fine.

The download and the streaming movie were two separate things, but improving your computers performance by reducing the number of things that it needed to do made all of those things work better overall.

This is the same type of situation.

[sir_odin]

My point still stands. Since you were on the European servers until October, you didn't get to experience how the attack rate felt when it was 10% slower.

so does mine, game rules worked for over 3,5 decades with minor adjustments, so apply those rules(almost like today system), readjust AC/HP so we wont hit 95% of the time (not counting glazing). Epic quests/raids dont get silly ToD/Shroud lag.

reinventing core rules, might as well rename the game or even just make another game.

ps
forum date != play start date.
number of post only shows activity on forum, not in game.
don't talk down on people for enjoying the game and not the forum

[Visty]

ps
forum date != play start date.
number of post only shows activity on forum, not in game.
don't talk down on people for enjoying the game and not the forum

borror is on something though
in europe we never had the snail combat they had over here, i experienced it myself
and it was freaking **** slow

[sir_odin]

i've experienced it too, but there has to be something in between. my monk with madstone and wind IV looks like a sugerhigh child in fast forward. at least adjusting the animation time is adjustable and leaves current / adjust current combat intact. when a better server solution appears the can always tweak up the speed.

even making static elemental/allignment damage would help. (ex. holy 7dmg, fire 3, force 5. instead of x rolls)

[SquelchHU]

so does mine, game rules worked for over 3,5 decades with minor adjustments, so apply those rules(almost like today system), readjust AC/HP so we wont hit 95% of the time (not counting glazing). Epic quests/raids dont get silly ToD/Shroud lag.

reinventing core rules, might as well rename the game or even just make another game.

ps
forum date != play start date.
number of post only shows activity on forum, not in game.
don't talk down on people for enjoying the game and not the forum

The D&D rules have never worked from a balance perspective.

Epic Velah and DQ have breaks built in, so if you don't get DPS lag that's why.

...I want glazing. Where is stainer when you need him?

[sir_odin]

sorry for grama, the forum doesn't have spell checker, prob because it causes text lag

[Borror0]

so does mine

No, it does not. While on paper a reduction of 10% does not sound like a lot, reducing the attack rate really made the combat less enjoyable. Like Aesop said, it felt like attacking in jello. It does not matter if the rebalance the game or not - the feel is not the same, so it's less fun. It does not matter if you played since January 2006, unless you have had the chance to try the change in question you cannot know how poorly it played and, based on what you told us, you didn't get the chance to try it.

If you need perspective: it was so bad that Turbine fixed it within a week.

forum date != play start date.
number of post only shows activity on forum, not in game.
don't talk down on people for enjoying the game and not the forum

I said nothing about your post count. The join date is the same that you started your game account. I made this account in December 2006, so my join date is December 2006 even though I only created my forum account in January 2007. Unless you tell me that is not your only US DDO account or used someone else's account, there is no way you have had the chance to try the slow combat system we've had in mid-September 2009.