Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Natashaelle]

It is very relevant. The underlying question is "Calebro, do you actually have any high level experience with the affected characters to speak as though you do?"

And a MYDDO page showing he does in fact have one or more high level TWFers is directly and immediately relevant. If his MYDDO actually is bugged, then a picture of his character sheet would do the same thing. And he can even block the name out if he is that scared of others knowing who he is.

The fact he persistently refuses to do this clearly indicates he has no horse in this race. Which is fine, but then he needs to stop acting as if he does.

Bollocks.

This is an open forum, where everyone can have their say on the basis of whatever personal experience they may have of the game.

I personally am just FED UP with these irrelevant and time wasting demands that you're making against the other member, with your continual derailing of this thread into your little personal concerns that NOBODY else gives a rat's @$$ about, and your unpleasant little personal attacks against another member for no good reason whatsoever.

<some ranting removed, because I was overdoing it, sorry>

EDIT :

I am ignoring any and all further remarks regarding Calebro. Stop bringing it up again, and stop trolling me for neg rep for it.

OK, THANK YOU

[Borror0]

ARE YOU CRAZY!?!?

maybe you weren't here when they did just that? Dear gods it was like fighting in jello.

His October 2009 join date suggests he was not.

[bandyman1]

Again they can't balance the game around a weapon that a small number of people have who are playing in a part of the game that only a tiny percentage of the player base (epic) ever plays...

Why not???

They are nerfing an entire fighting style to high heaven in 100% of the games content, supposedly as a fix for a situation that occurs in less than 1% of it.

[picaisfun]

I don't like it. How about using some of the money you are collecting in the store to upgrade the servers.

[Consumer]

Again they can't balance the game around a weapon that a small number of people have who are playing in a part of the game that only a tiny percentage of the player base (epic) ever plays...

I explained a solution to the epic SoS problem earlier in the thread but it resulted in tears.

[Calebro]

Again they can't balance the game around a weapon that a small number of people have who are playing in a part of the game that only a tiny percentage of the player base (epic) ever plays...

Why not???

They are nerfing an entire fighting style to high heaven in 100% of the games content, supposedly as a fix for a situation that occurs in less than 1% of it.

That isn't the reason you can't use eSoS for balancing purposes.
ESoS is overpowered, but quite a bit I might add. It needs to be nerfed. You can't balance a game based on an item that is too powerful or you create a power creep that will be unfixable. Unfixable. Repeat: Unfixable.
It doesn't matter how may people have it, or how long it took them to grind for it. That is all irrelevant. What is relevant is that it is overpowered and cannot be used as a baseline.

And IMO the nerf isn't nearly as dramatic as many of you are claiming.

[Cetus]

Now that I've slept and my brain has taken some of this in, my thoughts:

Turbine will never figure out the 'lag issue' simply because they already haven't at this point. Sure, nerfing twf *MAY* help reduce it a bit but probably not to an extent that it's worth mentioning. Shame on you Turbine. Back to the lag...

In ToD part 2 you have 1 boss (stationary) being beaten on by the melee and a person kiting trash. Lag=epic

By comparison:

In Tod part 1 you have melee beating on a mobile enemy, a person kiting the other, plus all the trash that spawns. From the user end there are more moving parts. Lag= marginal
In Tod part 3 you have melee (the same amount ind you) beating another boss that isn't in a fixed position. Lag= marginal

Point is that it's the same 12 people in that raid. So what's going on in there creating all the lag? What is the difference on Turbine's end between those fights? Well, it obviously isn't the group comp. Seems like the fights/encounters themselves should be retooled and not the mechanics of the characters. Design better end fights.

Again, another example:

Shroud Pt 1- lag occurs solely on the stationary targets- the portals
Part 4 - always laggy, boss is stationary
Part 5- laggy when the boss is boxed in, or in other words, becomes stationary due to player interaction.

Maybe I'm over generalizing there but is finding the common thread really that hard for Turbine? Really?

I've never been in one but has anyone run a THF only shroud or ToD? If so, was the lag difference so noticable that it would have justified Turbine touting it as a side benefit of the nerf?

The nerf and my feelings on it:

What/who is prompting the nerf to begin with? What is the nerf specifically addressing? Are they doing too much damage? Can't you scale health pools to compensate instead of riling up your customers? Isn't there better things Turbine should be focusing on... ...like the lag? For real. /facepalm

I really hope Eladrin reads this post specifically.

Very well said, bravo.

[sir_odin]

His October 2009 join date suggests he was not.

join date = janaur 2006 - codemaster, pre beta just escaped the EU sinking ship, so sorry for not having 3213412543412 posts on US forum.

i would rather be 5-10% slower, even do a 2 rounder harry then loose 45% offhand dmg and exluded from raids and epic since 'noobs use TWF'


even increasing the AC and lowering monster HP would increase miss chance and decrase 'dps lag'

[Angelus_dead]

Seems like the fights/encounters themselves should be retooled and not the mechanics of the characters. Design better end fights.

This is pretty funny, but the easiest way to fix the lag in those fights: Change those instances from 12 to 6 player.

For various reasons the devs won't do it, but it would solve this problem.

[bandyman1]

That isn't the reason you can't use eSoS for balancing purposes.
ESoS is overpowered, but quite a bit I might add. It needs to be nerfed. You can't balance a game based on an item that is too powerful or you create a power creep that will be unfixable. Unfixable. Repeat: Unfixable.
It doesn't matter how may people have it, or how long it took them to grind for it. That is all irrelevant. What is relevant is that it is overpowered and cannot be used as a baseline.

So is Greensteel.

And IMO the nerf isn't nearlyv as dramatic as many of you are claiming.

I'm glad you think so. IMO, my monk and rogue will be destroyed by this change.

You know what they say about opinions. /shrugs

[kingfisher]

ARE YOU CRAZY!?!?

maybe you weren't here when they did just that? Dear gods it was like fighting in jello.

autoquit! and imo this is what it will be like for those twf without full bab if this change goes live

Bollocks.



I personally am just FED UP with these irrelevant and time wasting demands that you're making against the other member, with your continual derailing of this thread into your little personal concerns that NOBODY else gives a rat's @$$ about, and your unpleasant little personal attacks against another member for no good reason whatsoever.

word

Why not???

They are nerfing an entire fighting style to high heaven in 100% of the games content, supposedly as a fix for a situation that occurs in less than 1% of it.

well said! this is why its obvious to see this is not a lag-fix with a add-on twf nerf, but a twf-nerf in a lag-fixes clothing. i think that if they looked at the 4 places in the game dps lag is a problem they could easily and less obtrusively alter those place while leaving our toons alone.

I don't like it. How about using some of the money you are collecting in the store to upgrade the servers.

oh no! dont even suggest this! its not even within the realm of possibility that they could fix this problem with money. they will delete this post as 'counterproductive' and 'not possible'. what they really mean is, we dont want to talk about this option because it effects our bottom line and does not nerf twf. what a joke! they wont even discuss it or any other changes, just this cluster**** gamebreaking bright idea.

[SquelchHU]

Now that I've slept and my brain has taken some of this in, my thoughts:

<Paraphrased for brevity: DPS lag occurs vs stationary targets, but not moving targets even if there's more going on at the time.>

Maybe I'm over generalizing there but is finding the common thread really that hard for Turbine? Really?

I've never been in one but has anyone run a THF only shroud or ToD? If so, was the lag difference so noticable that it would have justified Turbine touting it as a side benefit of the nerf?

Epic Velah too. According to Durnak, who is right up there with Shade when it comes to THF there is DPS lag with TWFers, but not THFers... despite the fact there is clearly large amounts of DPS involved. Velah isn't as bad about it, since the raid mechanics force you to take breaks and breaks fix it but it is yet another example of DPS lag occurring when fighting stationary targets with TWF but not THF.

+1 rep.

[IronClan]

Still don't believe this is all about nerfing TWF?

Still? Anyone who doesn't believe this is about nerfing TWF didn't read the original post or SCORES of other posts pointing out that turbine is admitting in the original post they need to balance TWF. They are doing it at the same time they address DPS lag spikes, and because the nerfs have synergy with lag fixes and are interelated to one another they are doing them at the same time:

Also being nerfed:
Two handed fighting "twitch/sploit" glancing blows (probably a minor lag benefit here less client updates from the player breaking the attack chain every swing)
And combat speed boosts that stack with haste (Fighter cap, Tempest, Zeal etc.) which is probably purely about lowering the density of combat calculations.

Pass it along no ones trying to pull the wool over your eyes

[Cetus]

That isn't the reason you can't use eSoS for balancing purposes.
ESoS is overpowered, but quite a bit I might add. It needs to be nerfed. You can't balance a game based on an item that is too powerful or you create a power creep that will be unfixable. Unfixable. Repeat: Unfixable.
It doesn't matter how may people have it, or how long it took them to grind for it. That is all irrelevant. What is relevant is that it is overpowered and cannot be used as a baseline.

And IMO the nerf isn't nearly as dramatic as many of you are claiming.

The Epic SoS is NOT overpowered. Anyone who has used one understands that it is a situational weapon: None or Low DR target, and Low or No fortification target. The epic SoS is AS powerful as a dang EPIC weapon should be.

Or do you presume our epic weapons all turn into epic siroccos?

[Krag]

That isn't the reason you can't use eSoS for balancing purposes.
ESoS is overpowered, but quite a bit I might add. It needs to be nerfed. You can't balance a game based on an item that is too powerful or you create a power creep that will be unfixable. Unfixable. Repeat: Unfixable.
It doesn't matter how may people have it, or how long it took them to grind for it. That is all irrelevant. What is relevant is that it is overpowered and cannot be used as a baseline.

And IMO the nerf isn't nearly as dramatic as many of you are claiming.

I can't remember Devs stating anything about eSoS fix. Therefore arguments based on it's actual value rather than some imaginary wannabe fixes are perfectly viable.

[bandyman1]

The Epic SoS is NOT overpowered. Anyone who has used one understands that it is a situational weapon: None or Low DR target, and Low or No fortification target. The epic SoS is AS powerful as a dang EPIC weapon should be.

Or do you presume our epic weapons all turn into epic siroccos?

Dude...even the **** Devs admitt they went overboard with that one.

I'm not trying to **** in your Cheereos, but you're most likely gonna see a nerf bat swung at your toy.

[Visty]

The Epic SoS is NOT overpowered. Anyone who has used one understands that it is a situational weapon: None or Low DR target, and Low or No fortification target. The epic SoS is AS powerful as a dang EPIC weapon should be.

Or do you presume our epic weapons all turn into epic siroccos?

eladrin himself said its overpowered, so it is

[Calebro]

So is Greensteel.

No argument.

I've never been in one but has anyone run a THF only shroud or ToD? If so, was the lag difference so noticable that it would have justified Turbine touting it as a side benefit of the nerf?

Do you really think that the implications of this are only going to directly affect those two raids?
This has server-wide implications.
It isn't just the people in the raid that affect the off-hand calculations, but everywhere. It isn't removing (just shy of) 50% of the off-hand calculations in that raid, it is removing them everywhere. If each instance was run from a different source your argument would be valid, but that isn't the case.
Reducing almost 50% of those calculations in *every* instance will help those people that need it.

Less load on the servers = less lag in those raids.

[Cetus]

Dude...even the **** Devs admitt they went overboard with that one.

I'm not trying to **** in your Cheereos, but you're most likely gonna see a nerf bat swung at your toy.

Theres a fine line between calling something "powerful" and something "too powerful".

The Epic SoS is very powerful, but it is not OVERPOWERED. There are situations where it is rendered useless and these situations keep it from being too powerful.

It is a **** game that consists of you accelerating your character, what is wrong with throwing players a bone to promote what they are here to do in the first place, HAVE FUN. Its a game.

[Calebro]

I can't remember Devs stating anything about eSoS fix. Therefore arguments based on it's actual value rather than some imaginary wannabe fixes are perfectly viable.

Well then here you go.

I won’t hide that these proposed changes do reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting. Skipping the extreme outlier of the Epic Sword of Shadows (we got a little carried away there, didn’t we?), estimated damage output over time for the two styles should be extremely close to each other if we go this route. (Which style is superior ends up being heavily dependent on your character's abilities.)

Emphasis red.
Implication: overpowered, and they know it.
Deduction: A nerf will be coming.