Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Even if STWF is not available to 3/4 BaB classes, as much as I may cringe at my rep bar for saying this........but doesn't it make sense that a full BaB class should be able to do more damage than a 3/4 BaB class....across the board not just by way of having a higher to-hit bonus.

I agree that it doesn't make sense for non primary melee classes (as indicated by their BAB progression) to be able to do as much damage as full BAB.

The problem with the rogue dilemna is how do they make traps more deadly so rogues are more wanted without once again destroying the solo'ing aspect of the game...and don't say Rogue hirelings because we all know most people use two types of hirelings.....Arcanes and Clerics......this not including multiple GS hirelings.

Balancing trapmaking so it's actually useful at end game will be a challenge for Eladrin yet to come. But just because the power of rogues is being reduced now because of this change doesn't mean that they might not be buffed in the future. Of course if the form of that buff is through epic traps of some kind, not every player will like that kind of gameplay.

Garth

[Halock]

80% classes have inherited affinity for twf. Sneak attack, smite, inspire courage all favor twf. And I have not even mentioned monks and (melee)rangers who are forced into being twf. Which leaves Fighters who can go either way, Barbarians and WF-based arcane/divines who usually go THF.

Now tell me, are barbarians (almost exclusive THF users) underpowered? Do they need to take 5-15% dps of the rogue to make poor barbarians viable?

TY for posting this more eloquently than i did, i hope it gets noticed.

[Auran82]

I agree that it doesn't make sense for non primary melee classes (as indicated by their BAB progression) to be able to do as much damage as full BAB.



Balancing trapmaking so it's actually useful at end game will be a challenge for Eladrin yet to come. But just because the power of rogues is being reduced now because of this change doesn't mean that they might not be buffed in the future. Of course if the form of that buff is through epic traps of some kind, not every player will like that kind of gameplay.

Garth

But as far as I am aware, rogues are not supposed to be trap disablers that do a bit of melee fighting on the side. There is a large amount of what a rogue is supposed to be able to do (non combat skills etc) that is pretty much useless in DDO.

Why should other classes be negatively affected if they choose to melee? I thought one of the strengths of this game was the massive amount of choices fro character builds, aren't we just cutting this down with this change?

This has probably already been mentioned, but on the off chance that it hasn't...I don't understand why the devs wouldn't try to install the modified collision engine and see if it has a positive effect on lag before they once again cast an extended heightened slow spell on us.

What I don't understand, isn't it basic programming 101 that when you are trying to solve a problem or fix a bug, the last thing you want to do is make multiple changes to the one system at the same time? Why not make the physics detection change first, see if it has an effect on lag, if so, push it out then start working on these combat changes, it just kinda feels like they were trying to say "Hey look, we are looking into these changes to fix lag! Also, we are making sweeping changes to the combat system at the same time." The initial % for offhand attacks kinda look like they were trying to pass off the changes as reducing lag by reducing the number of attacks.

[Ollathir]

Endgame and Elite, yes. Epic, no. I find epic boring, for the exact reason you described coupled with the fact that I've already completed those quests countless times before.
And I agree that mobs' HP are too high for S&B to become a viable option. Which is exactly why DPS needs to be nerfed, because until DPS is nerfed, mobs' HP aren't going to change.

I don't see that happening. Like was mentioned before, I've seen no indication that any scaling adjustments will be made. If they are, I can picture it making no difference to the flow or speed of the game. Takes X amout of time to beat down A, now, if X = less DPS, A takes longer to beat down, if scaled, same amount of time.

Elaborating on that with appeal to an expert...
Why would an STWF feat be less fun than things like Cleave and Slicing Blow (if they had been fixed to be worthwhile)? All three feats have the end result of causing additional melee damage, so what's the difference?

As a major game designer recently explained, a character option probably isn't much fun if acquiring the option doesn't change what the player does. That fits STWF, because a player who has STWF does exactly the same things as when he only had GTWF (even if the results are a little more successful, he doesn't behave differently). But a player who gets Cleave or Slicing Blow will start doing new behaviors, as he begins watching for situations where those active feats work best and clicking the icon at the right times.

A game where active feats like Cleave and Slicing Blow have a useful place in combat is more fun than if they didn't.

I agree with this in a major way. Game would be a hell of a lot more fun if variety actually worked this way. When I first started playing I thought how cool the feat Whirlwind looked. Of course I also tried to use my heal kits to get back HP's and was iritated when I kept seeing "invalid target" pop-up in my screen.

[geoffhanna]

because presumably Eladrin has thought that twf has been out of balance (as evidenced by the large number of twf builds in the game - remember eSoS is an anomaly so cannot be used as evidence that thf doesn't need a relative buff), and Eladrin thought that if he's going to go to the effort to recode the off hand combat mechanics to reduce lag, he might as well also examine the power of two weapon fighting and try to rebalance to match the information he presumably has available to him (more than we do).

In my professional life I would recommend against this. It is too big and too core. Fix one thing at a time and prove the fix works - in production - before attempting more.

which you still can do, but now you need to invest feats to get it.

I may be misunderstanding - I probably am - but I think this is oversimplified. The second collision detect will be going away, replaced by an assumption, and I think this makes it impossible to attack two different targets at once.

Further, I am frequently able to hit opponents with my main weapon and my offhand on anything except a ONE, thereby applying the effects of each weapon. That will no longer be the case, ever, regardless of feats. My main hand effect applies as it did, but my offhand effect is never attempted in some percentage of the cases.

If I am wrong please explain, I don't want to remain wrong.

your sorc needs to take the twf feats, instead I'm sure he takes things like maximize and empower - would you be justified in complaining about poor dps on your firewalls if you didn't take maximize and empower?

Please note that I am not just fruitlessly complaining, but also proposing a solution. Besides, I am not talking about firewalls, that is a total straw man. I am saying that my sorc has weapons and spell choices that she acquired for a purpose that they can no longer fulfill, and a favorite tactic that is now closed to her. The fact that I spent extra to get matched weapons (she is vain), and then extra again to make them Icy only exacerbates it.

The whole idea of ensnaring your opponent and then auto-critting it to death was nerfed twice already (changes to W/P and changes to the woo woo stick). This nerfs it again, probably beyond any remaining usefulness.

not really any more unfortunate for dex builds. It's unfortunate for builds that cannot afford the feats or cannot attain the dex/BAB to get the higher level twf feats.

Again I may be misreading this but I don't think so. A DEX build gets DPS from the weapons it carries. Not just elemental damage but also status drains/stuns/lightning/radiance/vorpal/whatever. Today, it is common to be in situations where 95% of your offhand hits are striking (sometimes 100%). That is no longer possible, and I am asserting that difference is a bigger problem for DEX builds.

[xxScoobyDooxx]

Plenty of other posts about people struggling to get into Shroud or TOD raids.

Now the Turbine have confirmed one source of lag being TWF I can see the following happening.

Shroud LFM
Before update
Your a Monk/Ranger/Rogue causes to much DPS lag ... you can't come in ......

After Update
Your Monk/Ranger/Rogue doesn't do enough DPS ..... you can't come in .......

A friend of mine started a Rogue with THF ... we all laughed at him ... boy is he a genius.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

In my professional life I would recommend against this. It is too big and too core. Fix one thing at a time and prove the fix works - in production - before attempting more.

I agree, but I suspect the temptation of mixing a nerf with OMG THE LAG IS GONE YOU CAN HAVE MY FIRSTBORN is just too much for the devs.

I may be misunderstanding - I probably am - but I think this is oversimplified. The second collision detect will be going away, replaced by an assumption, and I think this makes it impossible to attack two different targets at once.

Correct. This also affect the strike where the mainhand kills the mob - in this case the offhand strike (and doublestrike) is lost.

Further, I am frequently able to hit opponents with my main weapon and my offhand on anything except a ONE, thereby applying the effects of each weapon. That will no longer be the case, ever, regardless of feats. My main hand effect applies as it did, but my offhand effect is never attempted in some percentage of the cases.

If I am wrong please explain, I don't want to remain wrong.

I think you are misunderstanding, the weapon in your offhand still happens, it just happens at the % chance as calculated by the number of twf feats (and tempest level). It's true that e.g. a gtwf fighter will not get an offhand attack in 20% of the cases though when previously there was an attack roll every time.

Please note that I am not just fruitlessly complaining, but also proposing a solution. Besides, I am not talking about firewalls, that is a total straw man. I am saying that my sorc has weapons and spell choices that she acquired for a purpose that they can no longer fulfill, and a favorite tactic that is now closed to her. The fact that I spent extra to get matched weapons (she is vain), and then extra again to make them Icy only exacerbates it.

Yup but this is a fluid game. My bard who right now can happily melee raid bosses (from behind) using 2x transmuting of pg rapiers and even though her attack is only around +30 can still hit, can no longer do this, because without taking any of the twf feats (which I can't afford) the % rate of offhand is only 20% and that simply isn't worth the -4 to hit (or whatever it is for offhand with 0 feats).

The whole idea of ensnaring your opponent and then auto-critting it to death was nerfed twice already (changes to W/P and changes to the woo woo stick). This nerfs it again, probably beyond any remaining usefulness.

For those who do not have the twf feats or tempest: correct.

Again I may be misreading this but I don't think so. A DEX build gets DPS from the weapons it carries. Not just elemental damage but also status drains/stuns/lightning/radiance/vorpal/whatever. Today, it is common to be in situations where 95% of your offhand hits are striking (sometimes 100%). That is no longer possible, and I am asserting that difference is a bigger problem for DEX builds.

For those without the feats, but if you have the twf feats then these are striking, and you are still getting all the effects/to-hit of whatever is in your offhand when those offhand strikes happen. It's only doublestrike that uses the weapon in your primary hand.

Garth

[Cashiry]

Can we form a consensus that STWF should not be added to the game, irrespective of whatever other changes transpire regarding TWF and attack speeds?

it shouldn't be added.. its a lvl 21 Feat....

[Banedern]

I have only ever posted 2 times ever since i started playing this game. This is the thread of both posts the first of which I was being sarcastic, but reacting to my irritation with the proposed "nerf".

What this may very well be all about is money. The introduction of the ddo store has seen some changes to the game that have made sense only as a monitary decision on the part of those who collect our money, nerfing true res clickies on the shroud items that we had to grind to get to a simple raise dead and no more res cookies during the holiday season. Why? Maybe because you can now open your wallet and purchase true res "cakes" at the ddo store. Well one could argue that if they make drastic changes to many of the dps builds as they are suggesting to try here "to fix lag" it may just be about money. How many people will just click on the ol ddo store button and pick themselves up a handy dandy lesser reincarnation heart of wood to fix thier now broken character or with dps being nerfed back how many clerics will down a pot or two extra in a quest to get the completion while the reduced dps takes that little bit longer to beat down the boss.

I have no problem with the ddo store, I even use it myself. What I do have a problem with is when changes are made that seem like they may just be another way to make a little more cash.

Then again maybe its just me

[Coldin]

It's a bit of shame that Eladrin posted this on a Friday of a long weekend. It would have been nice to get a few more dev posts. Three days of idle speculation aren't much fun after a certain point. Ideas mostly just get hashed and rehashed.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

It's a bit of shame that Eladrin posted this on a Friday of a long weekend. It would have been nice to get a few more dev posts. Three days of idle speculation aren't much fun after a certain point. Ideas mostly just get hashed and rehashed.

Yes; posting on a Friday before a long weekend, as well as posting on the same day as the +5 reincarnation tokens (to throw fuel on the tinfoil hat wearing ddo store conspiracy theorists) probably wasn't the wisest thing in the world to do. It wasn't helped that the weather in Boston was pretty good either.

Garth

[Keridan]

Yes; posting on a Friday before a long weekend, as well as posting on the same day as the +5 reincarnation tokens (to throw fuel on the tinfoil hat wearing ddo store conspiracy theorists) probably wasn't the wisest thing in the world to do. It wasn't helped that the weather in Boston was pretty good either.

Garth

Don't forget the extra bonus pts for a 50$ purchase this weekend! That's the respec they are going to say they offered us

[MarcusCole]

If it ain't broke.....



I just hope turbine will stick with its "Powered by our Fans" motto on this one.

[Swedishchef]

it is a nerf, yes, just not related to the lag fix

How is it not related when Eladrin stated this is a way for them to attack the dps lagg issue?

maybe it has a small impact but the nerf is a differant point

the nerf isnt tied to the lag fix
and DA did fix lag

DA fixed the pathing lag, this change will fix dps lag.

Talking against your self much?

[vVAnjilaVv]

What you say about STWF and 3/4 might be logically true but look at the case of monks. They count as a 3/4 BAB class. Yet when using monk weapons they are full BAB. One should therefore conclude that monks should be able to do as much damage as a normal full BAB class when using a monk weapon. However they don't get to because of STWF seeing them as a 3/4 BAB class when they are actually a full BAB class in certain situations. There is no news however of a way to address this problem. Though they get a 10% chance to double strike with Wind stance IV that in no ways is close to other full BAB classes that can attain 110% (105% in case of ranger) and 100% while monks have 110% and 80%. Monks also need hits for ki generation as to so it is lowering dps potential even more. Just counting hitting monks get a 15% decrease. Counting ki strike struggles it could very well be more. Monks at the very least, should get a way to compensate for such.

Though I myself have a warchanter battle bard and will be soon making a rogue, I can live with a slightly less then 10% dps decrease on them. I cannot however understand in the slightest why my monk would have an over 15% decrease in DPS fighters and paladin DPS only decrease by 5% and when using hand wraps my monk is a full BAB class like they are. I will not mention my suggestion to fix this as I have mentioned it twice in the thread already and do not want to be overtly redundant. I just want people to see that it is not always black and white. It is also not always that a 3/4 BAB class should logically have less dps then a full BAB. Especially when that 3/4 BAB class has full BAB most of the time.

Edit: Yes I know you were in no way singling out the monk class, I just think that the 3/4 BAB case is weak when it comes to monks.
Also sorry about using your post to vent this as I am just annoyed that monks are taking a 15% decrease in attack rate (and over 15% dps decrease) while other 3/4 BAB classes are taking a less then 10% decrease in dps.

I 100% agree about monks....they HAVE to make an exception with monks and STWF as long as they are centered or give them some other form of compensation...if they don't it will just be an atrocity to the class.

As I see it there should already be an exception to how early they can take the TWF and THF feats...just tie it to being centered...I mean seriously how many people play their monks uncentered?

[danielhrobbins]

Sorry, I just completely disagree with the notion of making trapsmithing harder and more requisite as some kind of trade-off for nerfing the DPS and TWF damage. The near-uselessness of trapsmithing as a primary ability is a fight I've given up and accepted long ago, and frankly I like it ... it really opened up the rogue class to me, and also made me appreciate the amount of damage and overall breadth of ability a rogue has.

Concerning the proposed changes, this really really worries me. If you take into account a rogue's sneak attack bonuses and crunch numbers with proposed changes, it seems like it would add up to a lot of damage possibly lost (and I'm curious why rogues aren't also among the classes that would get higher offhand percentages?).

Please, please, please: just try the physics check reduction first and see how that helps before making these potentially drastic changes to TWFs. I realize it will probably only be a little bit, but every little bit helps.

We still do not know how and/or if they will change requirements for current TWF feats.

Even if STWF is not available to 3/4 BaB classes, as much as I may cringe at my rep bar for saying this........but doesn't it make sense that a full BaB class should be able to do more damage than a 3/4 BaB class....across the board not just by way of having a higher to-hit bonus.

The problem with the rogue dilemna is how do they make traps more deadly so rogues are more wanted without once again destroying the solo'ing aspect of the game...and don't say Rogue hirelings because we all know most people use two types of hirelings.....Arcanes and Clerics......this not including multiple GS hirelings.

[vVAnjilaVv]

Sorry, I just completely disagree with the notion of making trapsmithing harder and more requisite as some kind of trade-off for nerfing the DPS and TWF damage. The near-uselessness of trapsmithing as a primary ability is a fight I've given up and accepted long ago, and frankly I like it ... it really opened up the rogue class to me, and also made me appreciate the amount of damage and overall breadth of ability a rogue has.

Concerning the proposed changes, this really really worries me. If you take into account a rogue's sneak attack bonuses and crunch numbers with proposed changes, it seems like it would add up to a lot of damage possibly lost (and I'm curious why rogues aren't also among the classes that would get higher offhand percentages?).

Please, please, please: just try the physics check reduction first and see how that helps before making these potentially drastic changes to TWFs. I realize it will probably only be a little bit, but every little bit helps.

I wouldn't worry about it too much, Turbine knows this is a huge balancing issue and probably just threw the rough sketch out to see the reactions and what they will have to tweak to make it work.

I would not look at Eladrinn's edited charted and think that is the end of the discusion...that is what this thread is for.

IMO....there is going to be a lot more adjustment to this before we see a live version.

[Khellendros13]

*sniff sniff*... smells like Heroic Surge.

That had less of an uproar, or at least posts regarding it. That got canned for the time being. Let's hope they realise the same for this, and just implement the lag fix.

In all honesty, who actually thinks THF needs TWF to be nerfed to be viable? Plenty of THF toons running around, and it is still the choice for casting classes to use with no feat investments.

Removing glancing blows is another kick in the jewels too for those that play tactically. How boring if we all just stand there and beatdown on trash as well.

[danielhrobbins]

I have to agree. My rogue is my favorite and by-far-most-played toon; in fact I frequently joke all my other toons are just gear hunters for my rogue. I worked really hard, for a long time, to get my rogue to the satisfying level of bad-a** that it is now, and frankly this will just make me give up on the game ... and I'm not a rage-quitter.

This.

If my Rogue, which is my favorite character, can no longer do her primary objective (DPS) I will find a better game.

[SteeleTrueheart]

Did we get any confirmation on whether wind stance will provide an incremental double strike bonus for each level to compensate for the loss of the insight attack speed bonus or is the 10% bonus only given for the final 4th tier?

My twf pali will admit that twf has been a little too powerful compared to the pnp feat versions. And the chance of triple crit smites sounds fun. Yes I know the chance of it happening is very low, but I play for fun and the day it does happen will be a whole bucket of fun for me.