Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Delacroix21]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eladrin

---

Edit:
Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:


Code:
Doublestrike Bonus Main hand Off hand
No feats 0 20% 100% 20%
TWF 0 +20% 100% 40%
ITWF 0 +20% 100% 60%
GTWF 0 +20% 100% 80%
STWF 0 +20% 100% 100%
Tempest I 0 +10% 100% 90%
Tempest II 0 +10% 100% 100%
Tempest III +5%* 0 105% 100%
Wind IV +10% 0 110% 80%
Zeal +10% 0 110% 80%
Alacrity +10% 0 110% 80%* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.


This still puts monks at an even greater DPS disadvantage vs. other TWF classes then they are now. With Fighters/Rangers etc. having 20% more offhand attacks through Superior TWF, monks will be left behind in the dps charts.


Think about it... currently unarmed ALLREADY attacks more times per minute then regular TWF, yet it STILL does less dps (due to better weapon options, crit multipliers, crit ranges of weapons). This change will actually give monks LESS attacks per minute then a similar fighter/ranger etc. and just make things worse.

Ranger (assume 100 attacks)
105 main hand (100 + 5 double hits)
100 off-hand
= 205 total

Monk LIVE (assume 110 attacks do to unarmed speed)
110 main hand
110 off hand
=210 total (despite this higher number their dps is still the lowest!)

Monk Update 5 (assume 110 attacks)
121 main hand (110 + 11 double hits)
80 off-hand
= 201 total (DPS nerf to lowest meele dps class)


Monks are allready the most DPS deprived meele class, and require the most farming (2 ToD rings) to even reach their true potential. Please evaluate this accordingly. Perhaps give unarmed a BASE 40% chance of off-hand attacks (without feats) so it can hit 100% with 3 feats.


Reposted due to being buried to deep. This IS a concern as now monks will have LESS attacks then other TWF meele, despite ALLREADY having LESS DPS. The main point being that monks (with this change) will be even FURTHER BEHIND in dps. Even if you "think" monks SHOULD have less dps (as they do now) do you honestly believe it should be nerfed MORE?

[Timjc86]

With the announced changes to Epic mob to-hit functionality in U5, this statement may be incorrect. If so, then having to make decisions between DPS and AC may not be such an obvious choice moving forward.

That's potentially true. Like these TWF changes, we haven't really seen them yet so we can't say for sure. I can only express my worries based upon the status quo and how I think the changes will be implemented based upon what has been said.

But even if epic mobs get a -1d20 to to-hit, the builds that that will make a difference for are Defenders of Siberys and Stalwart Defenders. Dex based other builds and/or monk splashes may only see a very very marginal benefit from such a change. Strength based non defenders won't see a change.

[Calebro]

Then I must be missing something because remember my TWF hitting more than 20%-40% of the time with the off hand when I was low level. They seemed to have repaired the higher levels for the most part. The mechanic is different, but you will still be hitting at 100% or close to it with off hand attacks with the proper feats and PrE's if they go ahead with the second chart numbers that were posted.

OK, look at it this way.

Previously with no TWF feats and full attack sequence: Main Hand / Off Hand
100% / 0%, 100% / 0%, 100% / 0%, 100% / 0%
Now, with no TWF feats:
100% / 20%, 100% / 20%, 100% / 20%, 100% / 20%
An increase of 20% chance for off hand on every attack


Previously with only the first TWF feat and full attack sequence: Main Hand / Off Hand
100% / 100%, 100% / 0%, 100% / 0%, 100% / 0%
Now, with onlt the TWF feat:
100% / 40%, 100% / 40%, 100% / 40%, 100% / 40%
The first attack suffers a decrease, but the rest offer an increase of 40% each, for a gain of 60% chance overall

You won't always be assured of a hit the way you were before, but you'll be getting more hits overall. The further you go in the TWF chain, the less gain you get, until eventually with GTWF you have slightly less chance for an offr hand than you did before, but at lower levels it's the opposite. So lower level toons actually get a boon from this, while higher level toons take a hit.

Make sense now?

[Natashaelle]

With the announced changes to Epic mob to-hit functionality in U5, this statement may be incorrect. If so, then having to make decisions between DPS and AC may not be such an obvious choice moving forward.

It's not even completely accurate now, AC 55+ does start contributing towards survivability in the Epics, with some variation depending which Epic Q you go into. With this Epic trash change, ACs 45/50+ will also start contributing (albeit NOT in any kind of reliable manner).

ofc the AC that you'd really want in there would be more along the lines of 75-100, to make any *significant* impression ...

[Banedern]

lag is not that big a problem for me but nerfing 2WF is, I guess if ddo gimps all my toons I will have more money to spend each month and alot more time on my hands. I need a reason to quit anyway

Oh maybe another good idea could be move the level cap back to level 4 so all the calculations can be done on a solar calculator. this way there will be no lag and all the players will be so happy, we will be part of the best MMO ever.

[SolarDawning]

Ranger (assume 100 attacks)
105 main hand (100 + 5 double hits)
100 off-hand
= 205 total

Monk LIVE (assume 110 attacks do to unarmed speed)
110 main hand
110 off hand
=210 total (despite this higher number their dps is still the lowest!)
Don't you mean "=220 total"?

Monk Update 5 (assume 110 attacks)
121 main hand (110 + 11 double hits)
80 off-hand
= 201 total (DPS nerf to lowest meele dps class)

Snuck in a little correction. You indicated that monks would lose 9 hits out of every 100 attack animations, while if we go by the numbers you wrote, it's actually 19. However, I'd take that with a grain of salt, as we're not exactly sure of the speed difference between unarmed and other weapons.

I find it easier not to compare the other classes, and instead just look at the difference between current monks and U5 monks: 15% of our total attacks.

Changing 10% insight attack speed to 10% doublestrike (which only applies on main hand hits) = 5% less total attacks.
80% of offhand hits instead of the current 100% = 10% less attacks.

Total: 15% fewer monk attacks.
This will also lower monk ki generation by 15%, so it'll be more difficult to use a full rotation of ki strikes and abilities, such as Touch of Death.

[sephiroth1084]

It's not even completely accurate now, AC 55+ does start contributing towards survivability in the Epics, with some variation depending which Epic Q you go into. With this Epic trash change, ACs 45/50+ will also start contributing.

ofc the AC that you'd really want in there would be more along the lines of 75-100, to make any *significant* impression ...

How can you say that an AC of 50 will mean something, while you want an AC of 75+ to make a significant impression? If AC 75 isn't no-hit AC, then AC 55 = 0. If AC 75 is just no-hit AC, then AC 55 is only providing a 5% miss chance above the normal 5% for rolling a 1.

[Steen]

So turbine wants to fix lag by reducing dps? Funny thing as I thought dungeon allert was going to fix lag. If dungeon allert doesn't fix the lag take that out of the game and simply ask Warner Bros to buy you guys real servers. End result 0 lag, 0 gimping and we can all zerg to our hearts desire! I fixed everything

[SquelchHU]

With the announced changes to Epic mob to-hit functionality in U5, this statement may be incorrect. If so, then having to make decisions between DPS and AC may not be such an obvious choice moving forward.

Afraid not. They still have huge piles of HP, and the only way to take those down sometime today is auto crits. So it will still be all about the stun and the holds. Not AC tanking, even if you can actually do that now stunned mobs do 0 DPS, and the DPS also provide stun.

Didn't realize you changed it, but the one that used to say how 4th edition players hate you so.

Something that has nothing to do with my players. That was there because 4th edition players get so mad when you try to paint it as anything less than perfect, and every single one of em does it. No room to accept criticism at all. And that's not surprising, given how 4th edition falls apart completely under criticism.

[Visty]

So turbine wants to fix lag by reducing dps? Funny thing as I thought dungeon allert was going to fix lag. If dungeon allert doesn't fix the lag take that out of the game and simply ask Warner Bros to buy you guys real servers. End result 0 lag, 0 gimping and we can all zerg to our hearts desire! I fixed everything

another one who didnt read the OP carefully

the nerf isnt tied to the lag fix
and DA did fix lag

[geoffhanna]

Apparently we aren't allowed to try and create aggregation threads on this topic nor discuss specific aspects of the change except within this actual thread.

In spite of the fact that this thread is now approaching War and Peace volume.

I am very skeptical that anyone will read this post.

I am disappointed that I won't have an opportunity to provide usable feedback on a topic that is so important.

[Steen]

another one who didnt read the OP carefully

the nerf isnt tied to the lag fix
and DA did fix lag

LOL you obviously don't raid much. And yes, sorry I play much more than I post

[Ollathir]

The only concern I have for TWF offhand fix that is incoming... is oddly enough for my wizard. Do I still get auto hit on offhand attacks without the feats against a held target I just put the blue rings of death on or FtS'd?

Honestly that would be the biggest setback for me, having the offhand pick just not even land while smacking down something I've put into auto-critical. Using melee damage to finish something off is rather useful at times...

Interesting question, however I'd be lead to believe that auto-crit would not = auto-hit w/ offhand. You still need a proc.

No clue if the following points have been raised (I did not read the full thread):

1) The fighter capstone currently effects TWF, THF and S&B. Will the capstone for THF and S&B fighting stiles be changed to double attack aswell? The Fighter Alacrity capstone, and the Paladin spell Zeal would be changed to a +10% bonuses to double strike.

2) Many people reported a hidden attack speed increase with the barbarian capstone will this be adjusted or fixed (if not intended)? If its not listed in the description it will be changed. Not WAI.

You got it wrong. It's: DA worked; now, let's fix DPS lag.

No. It means "Instead of changing Green Steel, we're changing how TWF works."

DA worked, but the bigger lag issues still remain with spawning and teleporting.

if they would hold true to pnp then thf would be superior to twf already even with the 3 feat cost twf has

so id say you can be lucky that they threw you* a bone

*not you as you but you as general twflers which complain here

PnP doesnt = $ for DDO. TWF simply put costs more grinding to build effective DPS, than slapping on STR, CON on a tank and swinging an GS GA. The 3 THF feats are rather useless in and of themselves leaving you with other options as a THF. A nerf to TWF could effect this.

Yes, it is. Eldarin even admitted it as such in the OP that you quoted, although you conveniently left that part out of your quote.
Not all nerfs are bad.
The fact is, in PvE oriented game (as opposed to PvP oriented games) almost all nerfs are for the betterment of the game. The people effected by those nerfs will invariably cry Foul when it happens, but that doesn't in itself make it a bad thing. It doesn't? Do you have all the facts? Will this nerf slow down game play at all? If it does, then that would be a pretty bad thing.

The people are all up in arms because they think that Turbine is out to get them by nerfing their toons. But if no nerf was needed, then why do 3/4 of the melee population go TWF, with the sole exception being Barbarians and players looking to eventually acquire the eSoS?
If TWF wasn't ahead of THF, this wouldn't be the case.
So everyone rolled TWF toons to take advantage of the huge advantage that they have. Everyone saw what was clearly better and did it. But not all of them are actually good at it. Then eSoS came along, which was an admitted blunder on their part, so it stands to reason that they intend to fix that blunder eventually. When this happens, TWF will still outpace THF.
What they're attempting to do is nip that in the bud when they fiddle with the TWF off hand code. If they're already going into the off hand code, now is the perfect time to start the TWF nerf process.

I know many people are upset by it, but the sheer number of people upset by it should give you an indication that it was needed. Notice the few posts regarding the THF glancing blows nerf, which isn't insignificant to them. The few people upset by that vs. the large number of people upset by the TWF nerf just shows the ratio of TWFers to THFers.
If there is such a huge difference in the ratio, doesn't that say something about balance in itself?

Nerfs = attempts at game balance
Game balance = good

Currently the game is balanced if you take all factors into consideration not just end results. Couple examples below.

Two Weapon Fighting comes at a much higher cost to the player using it. Here’s (a bunch, sorry) of food for thought.

*Feats Cost* – At level 20, non-humans have base 7 feats, human 8.
-To be good, TWFers need at least : Toughness, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, + (PA or OTWF, I’ve heard varying opinions). That’s 5 feats right there. They will also likely take Exotic : Khopesh, and Imp. Crit : Slashing. That is all 7 base feats for a non-human. A human is afforded the ability to take PA and OTWF, but again, all 8 base feats are now gone.
-To be good, THF need at least : Toughness, Power Attack, THF, ITHF, GTHF, Imp. Crit of their choice. So, THFers have more free-ish feats in their arsenal, need no exotic weapon feat, and also don’t have to make a judgment call on whether or not to pick up PA. They can take that 7th or perhaps even 8th base feat slot and fill it with another Toughness Feat, a second Imp. Crit, whatever.

*Monetary* Cost –
• Green Steel – Takes twice as many rare items, such as Shards of Power and Large Ingredients to make an effective TWFer. Example : In the same time a TWFer can make their dual Min II Khopeshes, a THFer now has both their Min II Greataxe, and their Min II Accessory.
• Epic Items – Takes twice as many Epic Scrolls/Seals/Shards to make, takes twice as many Epic Dungeon/Raid Tokens to slot. That Epic SoS, slotted with Good (Or Silver, for Pure Pallies) in its Red slot is easier to achieve that two Epic Chaosblades, for example.
• Stone of Change Rituals – Same. Twice as many collectables are required to get Force/Force Criticals.
• Buying AH-able items – For every one weapons, named or non-named, a THFer buys, a TWFer better buy two.

*Inventory Cost* – It takes twice as many backpack/bank/shared bank slots for a TWFer to hold their Devil/Portal/Trash Beaters, Vorpals, etc. Makes inventory space super cramped, if someone specializes beyond their Min II Khopesh Set.

*Ability Points Cost* – To be a TWFer, one needs at least Str/Dex/Con. Dex 17 for GTWF. To be a THFer, one needs only Str/Con. Forget what other class-specific abilities you may need to get by. Builds often have to sacrifice Strength to-hit and damage, or hit points, or both, to be able to go down this special feat chain. THFers can dump stat Dex, and get back at a minimum 8 Ability Points with +2 Tome, 13 Points without.

In sum, I could roll a TWF and THF, say, Human Paladin, tomorrow. I could play both for exactly the same amount of time. And in the same time that the TWFing build would be fit for high-end content, the THFing build could have (+45 GS, +22 Toughness,+20~40 Extra Con) 87~107 extra hit points, and possibly a higher Charisma score for better LoH, Saves, Smites. When looking at this, the THF build really does seem like the Lazy/Poor man’s build, as it’ll take the TWFer much longer to get to the same level as the THFer in areas other than DPS. It’s a trade-off, more DPS versus more everything else, and now we’re saying that trading away every other facet of our characters’ creation is overpowered?

Actually, for the most part that's how it was in DDO as well. TWF was rather uncommon. It was far easier to level up a THF because it was far easier to build without having to know too much about the game (Create a melee, max out Str, distribute other stats as needed, pick up a Great axe and voila, easy). As you learned more about Feats you began to see the THF and TWF Feats. If you followed the simple formula of maxing out Strength and Con you automatically could qualify for the full THF Feat Line. Most discovered the versatility and power of TWF as they played the game, read the forums, and watched more experienced players use TWF.
While playing most folks began to accumulate nice sets of weapons.
Then after quite a bit of the knowledge of the game rules, how to qualify and build for TWf, and having decent enough gear to make it viable, most folks rolled up a TWF to see how good it really was.
In the case of creating a viable TWF Paladin for instance it was often desirable to have earned 32 Pointers.
The game simply was quite static for awhile. Eventually it was nigh-impossible not to have an incredible amount of weapons and gear. And once your character slots were full and you wished to play on the same server because of Guilds and Friends, but you wanted to create more characters, you had to make choices of who to delete.
In many cases I deleted my THF builds simply because it was easier to distribute their lesser amount of gear then my TWF builds.

Not saying that makes it fair or unfair, but it's what happens when people play far more often then I can ever remember playing PnP, and the speed is far greater.
There is no need to be insulting to players (and Turbine since they are the "bad DM's" you mention in this case) simply because the game has led to the current state which the players basically play.

I'm wondering what BAB and dex requirement will be needed for Superior TWF?If implimented 18 BAB 19 DEX seems about right.

[Calebro]

Currently the game is balanced if you take all factors into consideration not just end results.

I realize that you didn't include these, but:
Taking all factors into consideration is to take into consideration a weapon that is broken and a playstyle that was never intended. As stated by someone earlier, you simply cannot balance the game on an unintended quirk of the engine. Nor should you balance the game based on a broken item.

When considering balance, eSoS and twitching simply cannot be considered in the equation.

[Visty]

LOL you obviously don't raid much. And yes, sorry I play much more than I post

how do you come to the conclusion that i dont raid much?
ah wait, is it because i said DA is fixed?
i bet it is that

well, then let me explain something

there are several types of lag: pathing lag, dps lag, server lag, connection lag, your-pc-suxxors lag

DA fixed the pathing lag, this change will fix dps lag.
there will still be lag, you cant remove all...esp as the connection and your-pc-suxxors lag is nothing turbine could ever fix

and now search this thread about a post from tolero with the searchword "disease" and you will find the more detailed verison

[duncangolden]

Been looking at this (outside of work hours) and pondering what this will mean for almost two days now. Bottom line, it does not look good. The argument from the enraged two handed full BABs seems to be that due to having only offense, they should have superior DPS (sorry for slandering those axers that do not think this way). What said two handed full BABs do seem to say is that higher survivability should result in less dps. NEWSFLASH: in our current endgame, the only avoidance worth anything is DR (AC does not work) and who is it that naturally gets DR (oh yeah, thats right, High HP barbarians) So who has the most natural (class based DR) survivability. Until other forms of survivability are made viable for other melees, in my opinion the Two handed proponents do not have a leg to stand on in their argument that they should have superior dps.

Sorry for the rant, I have been thoroughly disgusted by the sanctimonious tones from the two handed fighting proponents arguing that two weapon fighting should be taking a big dps hit, as TWF has higher survivability.

And again, I am coming from a rogue perspective. IF these changes go through as proposed, it will hurt rogues to a degree I do not think most who play other classes can even begin to comprehend.

[Visty]

to obtain similar dps, takes twice as many attacks (or are you really that obtuse?)

more attacks -> more procs of special effects like holy and such

and no, im not obtuse as i understand what this is about and dont just cry that they destroy my chars

[sephiroth1084]

Apparently we aren't allowed to try and create aggregation threads on this topic nor discuss specific aspects of the change except within this actual thread.

In spite of the fact that this thread is now approaching War and Peace volume.

I am very skeptical that anyone will read this post.

I am disappointed that I won't have an opportunity to provide usable feedback on a topic that is so important.

Well, I read this, and since you ended up posting no useful information, you've fulfilled your own prophecy.

[nessguy]

please find another way to fix lag.
do not make changes to current players...
this is just another way to nerf what we have worked towards.



my vote is NO NO NO!!!!

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Apparently we aren't allowed to try and create aggregation threads on this topic nor discuss specific aspects of the change except within this actual thread.

In spite of the fact that this thread is now approaching War and Peace volume.

I am very skeptical that anyone will read this post.

I am disappointed that I won't have an opportunity to provide usable feedback on a topic that is so important.

If it makes you feel any better, I've read every post, and I'm not even paid to. Tolerant's job is to read these threads and ensure the player feedback is passed to the devs. Then we know Eladrin had read thus thread because he posted here. He's probably enjoying his long weekend at the moment. We need to pray for rain in Boston really.

Although I will say that posting this in a Friday before a long weekend seems shortsighted. Probably better to post earlier in the week so players' concerns are addressed in real time, as they were being so effectively on Friday.

Garth