Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Swedishchef]

The original chart would have made S&B a much more viable option, which I commented on about 60 pages ago.
By reducing TWF DPS (and THF DPS with the glancing blows nerf) S&B became viable once again. The new numbers don't reflect that, but the old ones would have.
Sure, they'd lag behind, but not to such a degree that they'd automatically be considered GIMP immediately.

Anyone, and i mean anyone who know something about dps can build a s&b intimi tank (bc face it that is the only good reason to s&b) and also make that build in to either a twf or a thf with good to excellent dps for when it´s needed and not just a one-trick-monkey.

So no need to go all Stalin on dps and make everything equal for everyone.

[Calebro]

So by this logic anything that most people do not like MUST be good for game balance and the fact that they built them by the rules in place matters for nothing, they are owed nothing and thier outcry is only because of thier ignorance

By your reasoning, any arcane that takes a Bard splash to get zero ASF in armor has a valid reason to complain when that gets fixed as well.
They built their toon upon the current rules.

Yes, one is an tantamount to an exploit and one is a simple imbalance, but the fact remains.

I'll repeat once again that most of my melee are TWFers, and I'll feel this just like the rest of you, but I'm not thinking with my own personal bottom line in mind. I'm thinking with the game's bottom line in mind.

[Tamerlane]

its keeps being said that changing twf and reducing lag are unrelated, but that is not what was said.

changing the way they calculate collision will reduce lag.
changing the number of offhand attacks will reduce lag.
changing the way they process offhand attacks, from checking your feat list on every attack to processing a % value that is cached will reduce lag.

the proposed changes to twf will reduce lag, to some degree, although that is not the only reason it was proposed.

[Luis_Velderve]

tempest I gives 10% offhand proc

If this is a joke sorry but its not funny at all! If they are going to fix lag affecting so much offer something of similar or higher value not lesser.

I quit playing Magic card game because they changed rules too frequently! If something is too strong or too unbias who is to blame, players? Turn your equation to 0=0 and be creative.

[Calebro]

the proposed changes to twf will reduce lag, to some degree, although that is not the primary reason it was proposed.

fixed it for ya

[Calebro]

If something is too strong or too unbias who is to blame, players? Turn your equation to 0=0 and be creative.

This would create the power creep that games try to avoid.
If this is the answer for everything, then eventually EVERYTHING will need to be nerfed, and the game would die when everyone left all at once.

[Krag]

the trap part was sarcasm, youre right
but im sure they will introduce something to make up for that

Pretty sure they will introduce something... within next 5 years.
Until then - no go.

[Galacticus]

where would be the difference to the current solution then?
they will both be equal
but the twf nerf doesnt put MORE things onto the server but actually less

thats why just boosting thf isnt reasonable

The nerf wont fix anything. Have you ever been in a shroud with all barbs as DPS tanks. The lag is the same as in an instance with TWFs. He stated it's not going to fix anything...It's a nerf

[Calebro]

The nerf wont fix anything. Have you ever been in a shroud with all barbs as DPS tanks. The lag is the same as in an instance with TWFs. He stated it's not going to fix anything...It's a nerf

No, he has stated that it's not going to fix everything. Very big difference.

[Visty]

The nerf wont fix anything. Have you ever been in a shroud with all barbs as DPS tanks. The lag is the same as in an instance with TWFs. He stated it's not going to fix anything...It's a nerf

yes its a nerf, i said that
whats the point of that post then?

[ChadeLanart]

By your reasoning, any arcane that takes a Bard splash to get zero ASF in armor has a valid reason to complain when that gets fixed as well.
They built their toon upon the current rules.

Yes, one is an tantamount to an exploit and one is a simple imbalance, but the fact remains.

I'll repeat once again that most of my melee are TWFers, and I'll feel this just like the rest of you, but I'm not thinking with my own personal bottom line in mind. I'm thinking with the game's bottom line in mind.

I said nothing of the sort I do say argue the Nerf on its merit and not to say that if its unpopular its good. A 60 percent tax increas would be unpopular but not at all good If they make a change like this they owe something in retribution to those affected for thier time and effort when following the rule. Would you change a contract just because later you felt the terms that you set and agreed to initially were not fair without feeling those who disagreed were owed something ?

You mmay feel TWF needs to be nerfed and I respect your right to that opinion . I disagree but I respect your right to it. I do not feel the fact that other disagree in numbers means your agument must be right

[Cashiry]

Until they introduce Epic Levels.. STWF should be left out of the game its a lvl 21 Feat.

[Galacticus]

I'll say it slowly s o you can follow here.... ready?

Because    It    Is    Overpowered.

I don't care how much grinding it takes to get it, it's too powerful and it needs a nerf. And who are you again?

And to all the people complaining about Tempest I splash nerf, it's not nearly as dramatic as you claim. They still get 2/3 of the TWF feats for free. They still get Bow Str, Rapidshot and Multishot. They still get a dual wielding shield bonus. They still get Favored Enemies.
To claim that any TWFer has to only take a single Feat (which isn't even coming for certain) is ridiculous. Taking Tempest I instead of any other melee class for 6 levels is still Hardly the difference of a single Feat. Period.
Tempest is and has always been front loaded on it's abilities. That's exactly why it was so favored as a splash, because it was TOO powerful compared to other Tier I PrEs.

Now they lose 10% attack speed in the main hand, but keep it in the off hand.
Is that a nerf? Yes.
Was that the point? YES!

To say that all those Tempest I splashes are now gimp is self-centered and short sighted. AS far as I'm concerned, Tempest I is in the same arena as eSoS.

Again I ask you do you even play and what server? Please list your toons........

[Natashaelle]

Anyone, and i mean anyone who know something about dps can build a s&b intimi tank (bc face it that is the only good reason to s&b)

hmmmm ... sorry, but I've been grinding up my AC on my main, and I've finally got it up to the point where S&B is a completely viable combat tactic, except (for the time being) in most Epics (and that's still just a work in progress btw) -- albeit not one that I would use 100% of the time.

YES it's slower, but basically : they die, you don't (well, not unless someone foolishly hits the Red DA button or some other accident occurs).

YES, it's a completely marginal tactic, depending on several months worth of grindety-grinding, but the ONLY game system -related reason why it's so marginal is the sheer rarity/grindiness of the loot that you need for it.

[Calebro]

Would you change a contract just because later you felt the terms that you set and agreed to initially were not fair without feeling those who disagreed were owed something ?

Your argument has no merit. The only contract you have with Turbine is if you're a VIP, and even then that contract is one of payment and can be canceled by you at any time.
We do not own our characters. Turbine does.
We do not own our loot. Turbine does.
As all of these things are owned by them, they will do as they see fit with their things in their pursuit to better the game.

If you rent a car from your neighbor, and he decides to downgrade it )or trade it in or paint it or whatever), you have little to say on the matter. You can choose to rent the new and/or different car, or you can choose to stop renting.

[Galacticus]

I'll repeat once again that most of my melee are TWFers, and I'll feel this just like the rest of you...

Again what server are you on and name the toons? Cause if you're just like us then you wouldn't want the nerf so much

[IronClan]

Since you clearly stated that the lag issue will NOT be fixed by this TWF nerf and you want to balance things out, why not give THF more DPS ability with a free feat. or something to that effect?

Boosting THF to be closer to TWF puts S&B even further behind. They are nerfing TWF to get it closer to THF so that when they buff S&B they only need to buff it a little... make AC reasonably achievable past Giant hold and the Tower Shield becomes a (sorta) valid option... Let Exotic hand and a half weapons do glancing blows [check - they're doling this] to make them worthy of a feat... and then I hope they give S&B a new feat line called something like "tactical fighting" which gives a synergy bonus to a S&B AC, then "Improved tactical fighting" and "GTF" for maybe a two more AC bonus and a 5-10% "double strike" boost while S&B'ing... 3 AC and some minor DPS added and suddenly a Long sword wielding Paladin or Stalwart Defender fighter is maybe just "non optimal" instead of being "gimp" and "short bus".

Still will be a hard sell to the Veteran player base that seems to be dominated (at least on the forums) by min maxers who only value extreme specialization and are willing to be jerks to more casual players over it. Maybe it's just the forums... It was nothing like this in NWN. If I didn't own the game (bought all content with turbine points) I would have already quit.

[Halock]

For all the people asing why so many people go TWF, the answer is because more classes naturally have bonuses for twf than THF...

Monks - full str on both main and offhand, double ki strike procs etc etc
Rogues - sneak attacks from both weapons, procs ( assassinate ) etc
Ranger - Tempest line, free TWF feats
Pallies - Double smites and sacrifices for offhand attacks

4 off the bat that are just designed from the ground up to work better dual wielding


Fighters - No real built in preference either ways, does well with both.
Barbs - Class bonuses for glancing blows, bonus to power attack which is doubled for THF


So of the 6 melee classes, 4 are just naturally designed to work better with TWF over the 1 designed for THF, with fighter being designed to have the flexibility to go either ways. Has little to do with TWF and more to do with the way classes are designed.

Edit: I should also mention khopesh, that 1 OP weapon screams to be dual wielded for double the OP'ness, the same way SoS does for THF, their just more easily accessible

[eonfreon]

Your argument has no merit. The only contract you have with Turbine is if you're a VIP, and even then that contract is one of payment and can be canceled by you at any time.
We do not own our characters. Turbine does.
We do not own our loot. Turbine does.
As all of these things are owned by them, they will do as they see fit with their things in their pursuit to better the game.

If you rent a car from your neighbor, and he decides to downgrade it )or trade it in or paint it or whatever), you have little to say on the matter. You can choose to rent the new and/or different car, or you can choose to stop renting.

While you are absolutely correct, it does seem rather unfair to someone who is locked into a subscription that won't expire for awhile.
To use your analogy, it would be akin to paying 6 months in advance to rent your neighbor's porsche and then a week after he trades it in for a station wagon or something.

Not saying it's the same, but neithere was your analogy any better.

So, yeah, it's their game. And we can stop paying if we don't like it.
But for those who are "locked in", it may certainly feel like they are getting the shaft if the rules were to change so much that they no longer desire to play the game.

Personally, other then my dislike of "double strikes" in place of Speed bonuses for Alacrity, I'm fairly satisfied with the current chart.
But I will indeed vote with my money.

[Calebro]

Again what server are you on and name the toons? Cause if you're just like us then you wouldn't want the nerf so much

Are you going to ask me to turn my rep on as well, so you can see whether or not I'm worth listening to?
I don't see what bearing my server or my toons have on this conversation.