Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Calebro]

why would an item {eSoS} you HAVE to grind to get and not get one lucky pull to aquire need a nerf? please tell me ??!!!!!!!!!!

I'll say it slowly s o you can follow here.... ready?

Because    It    Is    Overpowered.

I don't care how much grinding it takes to get it, it's too powerful and it needs a nerf.

And to all the people complaining about Tempest I splash nerf, it's not nearly as dramatic as you claim. They still get 2/3 of the TWF feats for free. They still get Bow Str, Rapidshot and Multishot. They still get a dual wielding shield bonus. They still get Favored Enemies.
To claim that any TWFer has to only take a single Feat (which isn't even coming for certain) is ridiculous. Taking Tempest I instead of any other melee class for 6 levels is still Hardly the difference of a single Feat. Period.
Tempest is and has always been front loaded on it's abilities. That's exactly why it was so favored as a splash, because it was TOO powerful compared to other Tier I PrEs.

Now they lose 10% attack speed in the main hand, but keep it in the off hand.
Is that a nerf? Yes.
Was that the point? YES!

To say that all those Tempest I splashes are now gimp is self-centered and short sighted. AS far as I'm concerned, Tempest I is in the same arena as eSoS.

[Marcus-Hawkeye]

To Eladrin,

I just found this thread, it is extremely long and baby makes it hard to take the time to read it all so if it's been covered I appologize for asking about it again. While I know this is not something people use much, if at all, but does this change affect thrown weapons in the same manner? Specifically, my thrown weapon fighter has the capstone, which is pretty important to have when you are a thrown weapon build. If it does not affect thrown weapons then I've just lost an important enhancement making her even less desirable (which is pretty low on the desirability scale already, understandably).

Also, if it has not been discussed, what about the alacrity items such as the quiver of alacrity and black dragon scale armor?

If these have been answered, could someone point me to the page they are on?

[IronClan]

But as we then take a little longer to complete raids, longer times beating on bosses, and then the server population goes up by another 40%, won't we be in exactly the same spot for lag if not worse, and then Turbine have to consider further changes?

Reverse this logic... they do nothing and the server population goes up 40% and then people start Lagging fighting everything from Bloodknuckles to the ice flencer in MP (well okay not him he's squishy).

[LunaCee]

Don't ask for further buffs for THF and the like just so TWF can be left alone. Power creep is a very very evil thing when it hits critical mass. Far better to take the nerf now than to take the emergency nerf later where you don't even get a say.

[bradleyforrest]

Sometimes there's an opening for an attack and sometimes there isn't.

Isn't that what the attack roll is to determine?

[Beethoven]

If someone here actually bothers to do the calculations rather than just complaining (Maybe MrCow can step in here...?) - I think you will find that assuming you are able to take stwf or tempest II, the dps loss is around 10% in total.

I believe you are right, Garth, but I don't think stwf should be used as a baseline. I still have strong feelings that while stwf may help on one side it severely breaks things on the other.

/If/ the goal is to bring twf and thf closer in terms of dps it would need to be without stwf for several reasons:
* twf is already a lot more expansive then thf, adding the requirement of yet another feat for them to be comparable (especially one heavy on pre-reqs) creates only the hypothetical possibility of them being close. However, in reality the extra feat and attribute investment required (not to even mention extra grind) would rather create a situation where twf either gets you the attack speed but lack in damage per swing to be comparable or has the damage per swing but lacks the extra number of attacks to make up the difference.
* it'd make the Tempest PrE absurd. 3 feats and 14 APs for 5% double-strike is ridiculous - a deepwood sniper with stwf would be vastly superior to a Tempest (the deepwood sniper would have nearly similar melee capability, 2 more feats to spend, couple more APs and better ranged attacks).

So, I think if we start comparing things we should either:
a) make them using 100% main / 80% offhand for twf (and act as if Eladrin never mentioned stwf) or
b) use stwf numbers but take into account that the tempest pre would require some added benefit to remain feasable or be actually superior (taking into account that toons with the feat will have less feats, less damage to begin with)

[Swedishchef]

I'll say it slowly s o you can follow here.... ready?

Because    It    Is    Overpowered.

I don't care how much grinding it takes to get it, it's too powerful and it needs a nerf.

And to all the people complaining about Tempest I splash nerf, it's not nearly as dramatic as you claim. They still get 2/3 of the TWF feats for free. They still get Bow Str, Rapidshot and Multishot. They still get a dual wielding shield bonus. They still get Favored Enemies.
To claim that any TWFer has to only take a single Feat (which isn't even coming for certain) is ridiculous. Taking Tempest I instead of any other melee class for 6 levels is still Hardly the difference of a single Feat. Period.
Tempest is and has always been front loaded on it's abilities. That's exactly why it was so favored as a splash, because it was TOO powerful compared to other Tier I PrEs.

Now they lose 10% attack speed in the main hand, but keep it in the off hand.
Is that a nerf? Yes.
Was that the point? YES!

To say that all those Tempest I splashes are now gimp is self-centered and short sighted. AS far as I'm concerned, Tempest I is in the same arena as eSoS.

I do agree with what your are saying to a point but: what about 2wf bards/rogues? Should they be shafted in to: support healing and buffing/trap monkeys just bc the top BAB classes are dualwielding?

I have a solution (i think) you know b4 they added theese **** numbers showing up (crit ex: 155+4+12+9+3) as a **** blur there were no lagg, remove this from game and i bet that it will clear some lagg.
The old days were better in this aspect as we only had the essential number showing up, now with frenzy+brust+crit+blast+holy+force+ what ever it all becomes unreal and blury casuing lagg.

*disclaimer* with green steel and force ritual all was fine at lvl 16 cap, then they started with this *we want ddo to look like a more wow number thing wehn dmging a mobb game* it all went titsup.

[Visty]

I do agree with what your are saying to a point but: what about 2wf bards/rogues? Should they be shafted in to: support healing and buffing/trap monkeys just bc the top BAB classes are dualwielding?

I have a solution (i think) you know b4 they added theese **** numbers showing up (crit ex: 155+4+12+9+3) as a **** blur there were no lagg, remove this from game and i bet that it will clear some lagg.
The old days were better in this aspect as we only had the essential number showing up, now with frenzy+brust+crit+blast+holy+force+ what ever it all becomes unreal and blury casuing lagg.

*disclaimer* with green steel and force ritual all was fine at lvl 16 cap, then they started with this *we want ddo to look like a more wow number thing wehn dmging a mobb game* it all went titsup.

bards/rogues/meleecasters
all those will loose some of their dps

but you shouldnt forget that they still have spells/songs/traps at their proposel

what do fighters have? or barbs?
you got it, nothing

those classes are about damage
those hybrids dont have their mainfocus on combat, thats why they have a lower bab and wont reach a fighter in power

[aax]

please please please do NOT decrease attack speed. you guys have reduced attack speed before in the past and it didnt sit well and you guy switched it back. the only good reason for this besides the lag is to make weapons like vorpal less useful.

someone said it best, slow = boring.

lets try to find a way to keep the attack speed while lowering the dps lag issue. for alot of people the fast combat system is what keeps us here.

[ChadeLanart]

A wise man once told me people are not stupid so you don't take a turd and paint it orange and try to call it a carrot. We built our characters according to the rules . The rules you gave us. We spent hours planning and playing to get them there. In short we lived up to our part. Now you want to change the rules with little to no regard for that. Add to that you have already written the code to do it on the test server. So you are determined to move in that direction. Therefore asking our input is probably more of trying to convince us something is not what you say. If you are going to nerf something have the fortitude to say so. Each player will then decide if they want to stay ( which most of us will as long as the game is not mucked up too much) or if we do not. Those of us that stay are not stupid. I was a supervisor in public safety for more than 30 years. When I had bad news I gave it and my people and I lived though it but I never tryed to tell them it was something it wasn't

[Visty]

please please please do NOT decrease attack speed. you guys have reduced attack speed before in the past and it didnt sit well and you guy switched it back. the only good reason for this besides the lag is to make weapons like vorpal less useful.

someone said it best, slow = boring.

lets try to find a way to keep the attack speed while lowering the dps lag issue. for alot of people the fast combat system is what keeps us here.

the fix which fixes the dps lag doesnt reduce attack speed in any way

also the combat wont be much slower with the current numbers

[Visty]

A wise man once told me people are not stupid so you don't take a turd and paint it orange and try to call it a carrot. We built our characters according to the rules . The rules you gave us. We spent hours planning and playing to get them there. In short we lived up to our part. Now you want to change the rules with little to no regard for that. Add to that you have already written the code to do it on the test server. So you are determined to move in that direction. Therefore asking our input is probably more of trying to convince us something is not what you say. If you are going to nerf something have the fortitude to say so. Each player will then decide if they want to stay ( which most of us will as long as the game is not mucked up too much) or if we do not. Those of us that stay are not stupid. I was a supervisor in public safety for more than 30 years. When I had bad news I gave it and my people and I lived though it but I never tryed to tell them it was something it wasn't

welcome to MMOs

and they said they are nerfing twf

[WirelessJoe]

Reverse this logic... they do nothing and the server population goes up 40% and then people start Lagging fighting everything from Bloodknuckles to the ice flencer in MP (well okay not him he's squishy).

Then you add more servers to decrease the pop per server, you don't nerf the people that have been on the server for four years to accomodate new players.

[Brother_Solar]

Just to run some scenarios to see what kind of difference we're talking about, I picked a level 20 Kensai Fighter with the fighter capstone. This example won't give an accurate representation of other classes, but I had to start somewhere.

Fighter stats
Strength: 46 = 16 Base + 5 Level + 3 Class Enhancements + 6 Gear Enhancement + 3 Exceptional + 3 Tome + 8 Insight (Kensai Power Surge) + 2 Rage Spell
Extra from feats/enhancements (TWF): +8 Dmg, +4 Seeker
Extra from feats/enhancements (THF): +10 Dmg, +8 Seeker, 25% glancing blow effects
Fighter critical accuracy III: +6 to confirm critical rolls
Fighter Capstone
Missing only on a roll of 1
Bloodstone

Weapons (with Kensai 3 critical range)
TWF: 2x Mineral II Kopesh (1d10+5 16-20/x3 Holy, Acid Burst, Acid Blast)
THF: Mineral II Greataxe (3d6+5 18-20/x3 Holy, Acid Burst, Acid Blast)

Hasted Attack Rates (without speed boosts)

Style			Attacks per Minute
Current TWF (w/ GTWF) 	114 main hand, 114 off hand
Proposed TWF (w/ GTWF)	115 main hand, 84 off hand
Current THF 		109
Proposed THF 		112
Current THF Twitch 	140
Proposed THF Twitch 	140

Calculation Results

Style			DPS
Current TWF		315.87
Proposed TWF		279.07
Current THF		234.24
Proposed THF		240.69
Current THF Twitch	280.99
Proposed THF Twitch	241.27

So, with the removal of glancing blows while twitching (I actually don't know how twitching works, but I assume, since you don't get glancing blows on your first swing of the attack series, that you won't be getting any glancing blows at all), there will be no point in twitching.

It looks like TWF fighters, due to the loss of the 10% alacrity bonus for off-hand attacks, will be doing 88% of their current DPS. However, this value is still around 16% higher than THF after the changes (which is much closer than the current 35% higher).

Below are the inputs/outputs from my equation. I'd give you the equation itself for documentation purposes, but I think the post is long enough already. Unless you are interested in checking my work, you should probably stop here.


Current Main Hand TWF

Player Inputs
Effective Strength Modifier: 18
Weapon Base Damage: 5.5
Weapon Enhancement: 5
Class Bonuses: 8
Power Attack Value: 5
Bard Song: 4
Weapon Critical Multiplier: 3
Critical Range: 16-20
Seeker: 10
Extra to confirm criticals: 6
Sneak Attack Damage: 0

Enemy Inputs
Enemy Fortification: 0%
Lowest roll required to hit: 1
Enemy Damage Reduction: 0

Applied Effects
Holy (Y: +7)
Acid Burst (Y: +3.5, Z: +11)
Acid Blast (Z: +11, V: +14)

Attack Rate
Attack rolls per minute: 114

Calculation Results
X component sum: 45.5
Y component sum: 10.5
Z component sum: 22
V component sum: 14

Average chance to touch: 95%
Average chance to confirm a critical hit: 100%
Average chance to score a critical hit: 25%
Average chance to score a vorpal strike: 5%

Average damage per attack from X component: 73.47
Average damage per attack from Y component: 9.98
Average damage per attack from Z component: 5.5
Average damage per attack from V component: 0.7

Total average damage per attack roll = 89.65

Average single target DPS = 170.33

Current Off Hand TWF

Player Inputs
Effective Strength Modifier: 9
Weapon Base Damage: 5.5
Weapon Enhancement: 5
Class Bonuses: 8
Power Attack Value: 5
Bard Song: 4
Weapon Critical Multiplier: 3
Critical Range: 16-20
Seeker: 10
Extra to confirm criticals: 6
Sneak Attack Damage: 0

Enemy Inputs
Enemy Fortification: 0%
Lowest roll required to hit: 1
Enemy Damage Reduction: 0

Applied Effects
Holy (Y: +7)
Acid Burst (Y: +3.5, Z: +11)
Acid Blast (Z: +11, V: +14)

Attack Rate
Attack rolls per minute: 114

Calculation Results
X component sum: 36.5
Y component sum: 10.5
Z component sum: 22
V component sum: 14

Average chance to touch: 95%
Average chance to confirm a critical hit: 100%
Average chance to score a critical hit: 25%
Average chance to score a vorpal strike: 5%

Average damage per attack from X component: 60.43
Average damage per attack from Y component: 9.98
Average damage per attack from Z component: 5.5
Average damage per attack from V component: 0.7

Total average damage per attack roll = 76.6

Average single target DPS = 145.54

Proposed Main Hand TWF

Player Inputs
Effective Strength Modifier: 18
Weapon Base Damage: 5.5
Weapon Enhancement: 5
Class Bonuses: 8
Power Attack Value: 5
Bard Song: 4
Weapon Critical Multiplier: 3
Critical Range: 16-20
Seeker: 10
Extra to confirm criticals: 6
Sneak Attack Damage: 0

Enemy Inputs
Enemy Fortification: 0%
Lowest roll required to hit: 1
Enemy Damage Reduction: 0

Applied Effects
Holy (Y: +7)
Acid Burst (Y: +3.5, Z: +11)
Acid Blast (Z: +11, V: +14)

Attack Rate
Attack rolls per minute: 115

Calculation Results
X component sum: 45.5
Y component sum: 10.5
Z component sum: 22
V component sum: 14

Average chance to touch: 95%
Average chance to confirm a critical hit: 100%
Average chance to score a critical hit: 25%
Average chance to score a vorpal strike: 5%

Average damage per attack from X component: 73.47
Average damage per attack from Y component: 9.98
Average damage per attack from Z component: 5.5
Average damage per attack from V component: 0.7

Total average damage per attack roll = 89.65

Average single target DPS = 171.83

Proposed Off Hand TWF

Player Inputs
Effective Strength Modifier: 9
Weapon Base Damage: 5.5
Weapon Enhancement: 5
Class Bonuses: 8
Power Attack Value: 5
Bard Song: 4
Weapon Critical Multiplier: 3
Critical Range: 16-20
Seeker: 10
Extra to confirm criticals: 6
Sneak Attack Damage: 0

Enemy Inputs
Enemy Fortification: 0%
Lowest roll required to hit: 1
Enemy Damage Reduction: 0

Applied Effects
Holy (Y: +7)
Acid Burst (Y: +3.5, Z: +11)
Acid Blast (Z: +11, V: +14)

Attack Rate
Attack rolls per minute: 84

Calculation Results
X component sum: 36.5
Y component sum: 10.5
Z component sum: 22
V component sum: 14

Average chance to touch: 95%
Average chance to confirm a critical hit: 100%
Average chance to score a critical hit: 25%
Average chance to score a vorpal strike: 5%

Average damage per attack from X component: 60.43
Average damage per attack from Y component: 9.98
Average damage per attack from Z component: 5.5
Average damage per attack from V component: 0.7

Total average damage per attack roll = 76.6

Average single target DPS = 107.24

Current THF

Player Inputs
Effective Strength Modifier: 27
Weapon Base Damage: 10.5
Weapon Enhancement: 5
Class Bonuses: 10
Power Attack Value: 10
Bard Song: 4
Weapon Critical Multiplier: 3
Critical Range: 18-20
Seeker: 14
Extra to confirm criticals: 6
Sneak Attack Damage: 0
Glancing Blow Effect Proc Chance: 25%

Enemy Inputs
Enemy Fortification: 0%
Lowest roll required to hit: 1
Enemy Damage Reduction: 0

Applied Effects
Holy (Y: +7)
Acid Burst (Y: +3.5, Z: +11)
Acid Blast (Z: +11, V: +14)

Attack Rate
Attack rolls per minute: 109

Calculation Results
X component sum: 66.5
Y component sum: 10.5
Z component sum: 22
V component sum: 14

Average chance to touch: 95%
Average chance to confirm a critical hit: 100%
Average chance to score a critical hit: 15%
Average chance to score a vorpal strike: 5%

Average damage per attack from X component: 89.43
Average damage per attack from Y component: 9.98
Average damage per attack from Z component: 3.3
Average damage per attack from V component: 0.7
Average damage per attack roll before glancing blows = 103.4
Average damage per attack from glancing blows = 25.54

Total average damage per attack roll = 128.94

Average single target DPS = 234.24

Proposed THF

Player Inputs
Effective Strength Modifier: 27
Weapon Base Damage: 10.5
Weapon Enhancement: 5
Class Bonuses: 10
Power Attack Value: 10
Bard Song: 4
Weapon Critical Multiplier: 3
Critical Range: 18-20
Seeker: 14
Extra to confirm criticals: 6
Sneak Attack Damage: 0
Glancing Blow Effect Proc Chance: 25%

Enemy Inputs
Enemy Fortification: 0%
Lowest roll required to hit: 1
Enemy Damage Reduction: 0

Applied Effects
Holy (Y: +7)
Acid Burst (Y: +3.5, Z: +11)
Acid Blast (Z: +11, V: +14)

Attack Rate
Attack rolls per minute: 112

Calculation Results
X component sum: 66.5
Y component sum: 10.5
Z component sum: 22
V component sum: 14

Average chance to touch: 95%
Average chance to confirm a critical hit: 100%
Average chance to score a critical hit: 15%
Average chance to score a vorpal strike with first or second attack: 5%

Average damage per attack from X component: 89.43
Average damage per attack from Y component: 9.98
Average damage per attack from Z component: 3.3
Average damage per attack from V component: 0.7
Average damage per attack roll before glancing blows = 103.4
Average damage per attack from glancing blows = 25.54

Total average damage per attack roll = 128.94

Average single target DPS = 240.69

Current THF Twitch

Player Inputs
Effective Strength Modifier: 27
Weapon Base Damage: 10.5
Weapon Enhancement: 5
Class Bonuses: 10
Power Attack Value: 10
Bard Song: 4
Weapon Critical Multiplier: 3
Critical Range: 18-20
Seeker: 14
Extra to confirm criticals: 6
Sneak Attack Damage: 0
Glancing Blow Effect Proc Chance: 25%

Enemy Inputs
Enemy Fortification: 0%
Lowest roll required to hit: 1
Enemy Damage Reduction: 0

Applied Effects
Holy (Y: +7)
Acid Burst (Y: +3.5, Z: +11)
Acid Blast (Z: +11, V: +14)

Attack Rate
Attack rolls per minute: 140

Calculation Results
X component sum: 66.5
Y component sum: 10.5
Z component sum: 22
V component sum: 14

Average chance to touch: 95%
Average chance to confirm a critical hit: 100%
Average chance to score a critical hit: 15%
Average chance to score a vorpal strike: 5%

Average damage per attack from X component: 89.43
Average damage per attack from Y component: 9.98
Average damage per attack from Z component: 3.3
Average damage per attack from V component: 0.7
Average damage per attack roll before glancing blows = 103.4
Average damage per attack from glancing blows = 17.03

Total average damage per attack roll = 120.43

Average single target DPS = 280.99

Proposed THF Twitch:

Player Inputs
Effective Strength Modifier: 27
Weapon Base Damage: 10.5
Weapon Enhancement: 5
Class Bonuses: 10
Power Attack Value: 10
Bard Song: 4
Weapon Critical Multiplier: 3
Critical Range: 18-20
Seeker: 14
Extra to confirm criticals: 6
Sneak Attack Damage: 0
Glancing Blow Effect Proc Chance: 25%

Enemy Inputs
Enemy Fortification: 0%
Lowest roll required to hit: 1
Enemy Damage Reduction: 0

Applied Effects
Holy (Y: +7)
Acid Burst (Y: +3.5, Z: +11)
Acid Blast (Z: +11, V: +14)

Attack Rate
Attack rolls per minute: 140

Calculation Results
X component sum: 66.5
Y component sum: 10.5
Z component sum: 22
V component sum: 14

Average chance to touch: 95%
Average chance to confirm a critical hit: 100%
Average chance to score a critical hit: 15%
Average chance to score a vorpal strike: 5%

Average damage per attack from X component: 89.43
Average damage per attack from Y component: 9.98
Average damage per attack from Z component: 3.3
Average damage per attack from V component: 0.7
Average damage per attack roll before glancing blows = 103.4
Average damage per attack from glancing blows = 0

Total average damage per attack roll = 103.4

Average single target DPS = 241.27

[Consumer]

I'll say it slowly s o you can follow here.... ready?

Because    It    Is    Overpowered.

Rather than nerf a weapon people have spent time aquiring an equivilent weapon should be made for TWF, an epic Khopesh with a base of 2d10 and a multiplier of 4 would provide similar but not more DPS than an epis SoS in the hands of a Fighter. We will also get epic deathnips in the future which could be made to close the gap, eventually epic greensteel weapons aswell.

[Calebro]

I have a solution (i think) you know b4 they added theese **** numbers showing up (crit ex: 155+4+12+9+3) as a **** blur there were no lagg, remove this from game and i bet that it will clear some lagg.
The old days were better in this aspect as we only had the essential number showing up, now with frenzy+brust+crit+blast+holy+force+ what ever it all becomes unreal and blury casuing lagg.

The display isn't causing lag. It still has to compute those numbers either way.
If you don't believe me then go into Options, turn that off, and see if it helps.

[Calebro]

Rather than nerf a weapon people have spent time aquiring an equivilent weapon should be made for TWF, an epic Khopesh with a base of 2d10 and a multiplier of 4 would provide similar but not more DPS than an epis SoS in the hands of a Fighter. We will also get epic deathnips in the future which could be made to close the gap, eventually epic greensteel weapons aswell.

No.
This is exactly the problem with the power creep. This was the reasoning when eSoS was created. Creating 1 handed weapons to rival it is the exact WRONG thing to do.

[ChadeLanart]

welcome to MMOs

and they said they are nerfing twf

thanks for the welcome this is the first time I posted but I have read these forums for nearly a year now. In truth I do not think I had a right to comment on things before this as I was still learning the game ( and in fact still am ) They spent a good bit of time telling us how they were doing this to help us. A position I personally do not agree with. I think they are following a personal agenda and trying to make expedient fixes rather than fixes that will take more work and but be more palatable to the players . I hope I am wrong and if so I will post saying I was wrong.

[Swedishchef]

bards/rogues/meleecasters

what do fighters have? or barbs?
you got it, nothing

those classes are about damage
those hybrids dont have their mainfocus on combat, thats why they have a lower bab and wont reach a fighter in power

So you mean that a full assasin isn´t built for dps? yeah right i build my assasin rogue for traps that makes perfect sense so i can be a trapmonkey.

And what you are saying is that we should not allow multiclassing bc it will gimp all none dps full bab builds.

1: Tanks/dps->barbs,fighters (they have nothing else going for em your own words)
2: support bards/rogues/pallys/monks/rngs (party buffs can come from all of theese classes and they should only be abel to support bc the barbs and fighters should be and can only bring dps this aplys to the 2 following aswell)
3: healing clr/fvs (no need for battle clrcs or wf fvs they should only heal)
4: arcane casting sorc/wiz (only bring dbuffs/arcane dps, no splashing bc it´s better you stay pure and you should not make a 2wf hybrid bc u can´t come in my dps grp.)
5: Bards and rogues and meleecasters don´t reach barb or fighter in dps as it is now (not counting SA) so there is nothing wrong there, mabye you didn´t know that but that is how it works atm.

[Consumer]

snip

Horribly inaccurate