Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Natashaelle]

Fighters do more damage than Rangers in TWF. What are you talking about?

Currently, this depends somewhat on your character creation and development skills, whereas it will be easier for the more casual gamers to make a competitive 2WF Fighter if the proposed changes are implemented.

[toughguyjoe]

they want you to use vorpals and **** to minimize dps lag. epic fail

Epic WIN for Handees "Power 5 Pally Brigade"

[Chuutritt]

No offense, but ever since capstones was raised pure builds are the FOTM... and pure builds are the true min/maxers..

No offense taken, but I disagree. Taking a mix of classes to get much improved armor class via a monk wisdom bonus, to be able to use heal scrolls, have minishot, get extra attack speed, strikes me as a lot more of a min/maxer than some barb, rogue, monk or ftr getting a capstone.

[GottDDO]

No one is asking for "Equality" What we're asking for is for some people to step away from PNP in some aspects, as it does directly relate to Video Game mechanics.

In PNP a Monk gets Flurry of blows, and potentially makes many many attacks per round. What better way to simulate that than to allow a Monk to gain Superior Two Weapon Fighting?

I'm not talking about equality, and I'm not one of those PnP guys.

In any MMO you play, there's a balance between classes that are pure melee and those with utility/survivability. Fighters and Barbarians should have more melee competence, due to having less utility/survivability.

[zealous]

Well, let me add on a small suggestion to further fix the twitching problem.

THF grants a glancing blow on the first and second moving attack animation right? Well, just simply remove the glancing blow off that first attack. Then moving isn't nearly so good because you're losing another glancing blow.

Attacks with two handed weapons while moving no longer perform Glancing Blows.

???

I think is a numbers game... icing on the cake so to say... your frenzied berzerker goes in and hits mob with a 500+ crit and then a little glance on some surrounding mob on a procing glance ... believe was borrow told me a while back people like numbers and wish to see the hits and plenty of them... was when I was *****ing bout BaB and to-hit purposes when most things hit on a two raid buffed ... anyway the glance proc is added gravy and not quite as significant as a proc on a twf build... when you're doing 60 a swing (500+ a crit) with a big axe and the glances are little less than half is shoving in more of the the big numbers are what's attractive on that barb... adding the extra swing in every 2 seconds is what they persue then. So come many mob glance but on one mob twitch.

A "icing" composing some 10-20% of the single target dps of a twitching 2h barb.

Removing glancing blows on moving attack will affect 2h twitch more than a 20% reduction of off-hand blows will affect 2wf.

"It's only small numbers" so exactly as you say, people tend not to notice.

[NuclearCoffee]

???????

[Auran82]

What I am seeing here is that we have a flat tire (dps lag)

They propose to use the physics calculation to work out whether you are in range of an enemy from the main hand attack for the offhand attack as well, thus cutting down some of the messier calculations (repair flat tire)

Then, while we're at it, lets completely rip the guts out of the combat system away from a set attack chain (ie - Full round attack in PnP, you know what attacks you get) to some % based system (lets replace the engine while we're at it)

[Natashaelle]

No offense taken, but I disagree. Taking a mix of classes to get much improved armor class via a monk wisdom bonus, to be able to use heal scrolls, have minishot, get extra attack speed, strikes me as a lot more of a min/maxer than some barb, rogue, monk or ftr getting a capstone.

It's two different styles of minimax, that I think of as Munchkin versus Monty Haul

It's fairly hard to make a toon that's both Munchkin *and* Monty Haul, but NOT impossible

[toughguyjoe]

I'm not talking about equality, and I'm not one of those PnP guys.

In any MMO you play, there's a balance between classes that are pure melee and those with utility/survivability. Fighters and Barbarians should have more melee competence, due to having less utility/survivability.

Heres the problem. Monks are pure Melee.

[Jendrak]

I don't even know where to begin.......

My first reaction was ohhh great here we go again remembering the brillant idea to mess with attack speed which left some TWF build slightly slower and screwed quarterstaff users.

Now after lookng at the tables and trying to read about 60+ posts before I went blind I gotta say I'm still not to impressed.

Now I understand this is gonnabe tricky to fix but since the lag is suffered primarily at high end "espically in high level raids". I'm very wary of a system that does nothing to address the problem at high level aside from a promise that it well help because the system will handle it better. I'm just not seeing how giving the same high end characters the same attacks with a chance of more is going to decrease the lag.

If you are dead set on doing this I would strongly suggest waiting until mod 7 or even 8 to make sure it is working perfectly.

I almost quit completly after the half-assed nerf that left my character playing like he was swimming through concrete. If it happens again because someone makes the decision to rush it through for mod 5 I think I may not be the only one quitting forever.

Basically, just make **** sure it's properly tested and tweaked before you put it in.

[Brennie]

The amount whereby 2WF specialists will be affected is being somewhat exaggerated by some people in this thread, as far as I can see.

For example, the fact that Fighters will be able to compete with Rangers in the 2WF area is more of a (needed) boost for Fighters than a Rangers nerf. There is no reason at all why Fighters should not be able to attain top-notch 2WF capabilities.

Those who will be most affected are people with a Ranger 6 splash with an otherwise non-mêlée focused character class, which is actually a LOT of people -- so that it's understandable that so many people are overreacting.

Fighters can already compete with rangers for TWF. Rangers get Tempest, and the ability to make extra attacks/attack faster, while fighters have weapon specializations, kensai, fighter capstone, strength enhancements, a truckload of feats, and fighter haste boost to make them attack fast and hit *hard*.

The proposed change allows fighters to not only have all their current bonuses, but also attack faster/more often then a tempest ranger. The problem i have with this is that the main major benefit of the Tempest PrE is having more two-weapon attacks and faster two weapon attacks. With the proposed changes, any character with STWF will have only 5% less double strike chance than a tempest ranger, but just as many offhand attacks. Fighters and paladins will actually have 5% MORE double strike chance with just as many offhand attacks.

For a pure ranger who skips the Tempest line entirely, they need only to invest in a single feat, STWF, to gain the major benefits of Tempest I and II! I don't see how this can be considered anything other than a huge nerf to tempest rangers.

Fighters will likely be the least effected by this proposed change, as they need only one extra feat in teh TWF line to have essentially the same TWF they have now. Lower BaB classes will lose out on an offhand attack, and Tempest Rangers will lose out on an offhand attack *and* 10% attack speed for the benefit of 5% double strike

[TiranBlade]

Heres the problem. Monks are pure Melee.

Actually monks are skilled-melee with a touch of defensive enhancing class features.

[donotdirect1]

Think there has been enough discussion yet developers?

General consensus, you've turned the world upside down.

My suggestion remains. If you want the servers to do less work, use more static numbers per attack chain.

We solved PnP time by doing the same thing. Not reducing the number of attacks by basically giving all things displacement from our off hand.

To those of you who are up in arms about superior two weapon fighting not granted to BAB 15 classes, I understand why you would be upset. The fact remains that BAB is a huge score that really is the base for all prestige classes and all of the best feats, that shouldn't change. But also, we shouldn't be gaining a phantom miss on off hand attacks for no real reason, when it's not built into the system that everything we play is.

Monks could use a nifty capstone and prestige enhancements, I'm going to have to agree on that. Especially if STWF is made and they do not qualify. Flurry of blows, while being a good example, isn't really STWF. They should gain something different, and not quite equal. Honestly, if we are keeping haste boosts around, monks should get them the same as fighters.

[toughguyjoe]

Actually monks are skilled-melee with a touch of defensive enhancing class features.

*edit* I'll come back to this when i'm not having keyboard face. What i wrote hardly sounded english to me once i re-read it

[Natashaelle]

Fighters can already compete with rangers for TWF. Rangers get Tempest, and the ability to make extra attacks/attack faster, while fighters have weapon specializations, kensai, fighter capstone, strength enhancements, a truckload of feats, and fighter haste boost to make them attack fast and hit *hard*.

Well sure, but I'm not thinking about 20th level single-class toons *only* I guess I should have clarified that earlier, to avoid confusion.

For a pure ranger who skips the Tempest line entirely, they need only to invest in a single feat, STWF, to gain the major benefits of Tempest I and II! I don't see how this can be considered anything other than a huge nerf to tempest rangers.

Well, I dunno -- High-level Rangers will still be able to purchase the STWF feat, although it remains very unclear how the devs might be planning on making this useful for them. STWF = the current Tempest II is useful for us to visualise what STWF will do, but it does not help us visualise how the attack speeds of a maxed out endgame Tempest Ranger will be affected in real terms, after all testing has been completed.

I can certainly see that STWF is intended to provide fighter types with attack speeds equivalent to Tempest II, but it would seem clear to me that Tempest III and purchasing STWF should provide some sort of attack speed bonuses to endgame Rangers as compared to Tempest II/other STWF.

Fighters will likely be the least effected by this proposed change, as they need only one extra feat in teh TWF line to have essentially the same TWF they have now. Lower BaB classes will lose out on an offhand attack, and Tempest Rangers will lose out on an offhand attack *and* 10% attack speed for the benefit of 5% double strike

I do agree that Fighters will be the least affected, which I'd hoped would have been implicit in my argument here

[Annosirus]

Just another thought on this subject, I am not sure if this has been mentioned yet or not. First off, I am new to the game so this won't affect me either way as I don't know the difference. However, by reading the posts on this subject two things are clear. First, fix the lag on high end raids. Second, there is a mixed reaction to changing the mechanics for dual wielding characters. For the lag, what about splitting up how the server processes the game? If you split it into two sections, one part governing the lower level content, say lvl 1-14 then have a second part governing the high end content (CD 15-20) to reduce the strain on the server. Then add more memory to each side that should reduce if not eliminate the lag. Now to the new mechanics proposed for dual wielding characters. If the lag is fixed by my above suggestion then don't change anything. If my above suggestion is impossible to make happen or does not fix the problem after being attempted then I say do whatever needs to be done to eliminate the lag. As long as the newly proposed mechanics still offer critical hits and apply all other modifiers to the off-hand weapon that are applied to the main hand weapon. I believe that if you have devoted enough feat and enhancement points into this style than it should be just like wielding with two main hands. Thanks!

[Kace]

I think the big problem with the Nerf is tied to one of the big allures of this type of game, the thrill of progression.
Having invested so much personal capital in climbing those last few rungs, regression becomes terribly painful, especially when there is no avenue to regain one's previous majesty. I suspect a leading cause of the ragequit.
My thesis is that this is unrelated to the intrinsic value of the product post-bat. This leads to the rub. Any nerf will do great harm to the experience of current nerf-ees. Leaving things unbalanced or using power creep will harm the experience of future easy touches. The obvious solution is to dissemble and give misleading reports to your superiors about a miraculous vapor solution and quietly slip out the back. Vigil Games is hiring

[Soleran]

In any MMO you play, there's a balance between classes that are pure melee and those with utility/survivability. Fighters and Barbarians should have more melee competence, due to having less utility/survivability.

Barbs and Fighters aren't lacking in suvivability at all, last time I checked those are 99% of the time tanking and topping dps, try doing a raid without barbs and fighters and instead insert all monks to replace them and epic fail where you can replace the monk(insert rogue too unless rogues are disabling trap bosses) with the other 2.

The balance between barbs, fighters and monks(insert rogue or ranger here as well) having utility is that nearly all monk utility can be gained with minimal loss with gear changing for situations while the same cannot be said for switching out barb and fighter survivability(hp at 20) and dps vs monks and bosses.

In all MMO that I have played when you start to hit 20 and raid and do harder content all that matters is hp and dps and how to keep that up.

Anyway in as far as the last twf line is concerned they should make sure to keep those things in mind.

[Natashaelle]

As long as the newly proposed mechanics still offer critical hits and apply all other modifiers to the off-hand weapon that are applied to the main hand weapon. I believe that if you have devoted enough feat and enhancement points into this style than it should be just like wielding with two main hands. Thanks!

That's pretty much how things worked in AD&D, with the limitation that either your off-hand weapon needed to be smaller than your mainhand weapon, or you were dual wielding two small weapons like daggers (but not two shortswords for example). Longsword or bastard sword/shortsword combo was popular.

This was changed to the 3rd Edition system ; basically because it was overpowered, particularly when combined with the AD&D version of haste which doubled ALL of your attacks

[Merlocke]

The proposed change allows fighters to not only have all their current bonuses, but also attack faster/more often then a tempest ranger. The problem i have with this is that the main major benefit of the Tempest PrE is having more two-weapon attacks and faster two weapon attacks. With the proposed changes, any character with STWF will have only 5% less double strike chance than a tempest ranger, but just as many offhand attacks. Fighters and paladins will actually have 5% MORE double strike chance with just as many offhand attacks.

For a pure ranger who skips the Tempest line entirely, they need only to invest in a single feat, STWF, to gain the major benefits of Tempest I and II! I don't see how this can be considered anything other than a huge nerf to tempest rangers.

Tempest Rangers will lose out on an offhand attack *and* 10% attack speed for the benefit of 5% double strike

this is what ive been saying...Dodge/Mobility/Spring attk for that? Really?