Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Perseu]

I´m probably the most unqualified person to raise my voice here. I´m not a heavy player, i´m not a build expecialist, even know right how it really will modify the game, but i consider myself the model of the average V.I.P costumer of this company. I play 1 hour or 2 3 or 5 times for week and i expend 15 to 50 dolars every month in this game becouse it is a nostalgic thing to me, this remember me my teenage and now that i´m more than 30 years old i don´t have more time to my D&D fun and even the possiblity of find a group to play. I´m not alone, mostly of the players that i talked untill today have more than 30 and gladly expend this money (and we just don´t expend more becouse your DDOstore is terrible) becouse this game is very mutch like the real thing beside the part of the "role playing" thing. We use this game reading the dialogs in the quests and fell like if we are back at the old times.
Maybe i´m wrong, but i think that you guys are aiming at the other group, that ones are Free to play or just pay the regular V.I.P for some months than buy some packs as "the twelve" and "Amarath" and disturb all you developers and business mans to make their game faster and better.
So... becouse of this free players that have a lot of time to get here and say hell about the lag of this 3 or 4 raids... you guys will do a lot of changes that will transform a really good game, that is very mutch like the real one, in some bizarre monster game; and if you try adapt this no sense doble strike that has no logical explanation to this game just to compensate other thing... well thats is exactly what it will become.
Well, if this is the real thing and this is what this company is looking for i will cancel my account right when this update be release and i see that it´s not like was before, like a real representation of my old table game, and i think there´s more of me out there, that have no time to be here and complain about this, and this is the only reason why i´m here wasting my time and not just waiting to see what it will become and if come to be what i dislike i just turn off the computer and cancel my account.
I really hope that you guys look carfully to your real market share and see who you are listen.

P.S ---> I´m really sorry if ofend anyone and about my poor english, becouse this is not my mother language and i´m tired becouse here is more than 2 in the morning.

[Roziel_Longblade]

I like the addition of STWF. It forces builders to make hard decisions.

I like that wind stance is now a % double attack.

I like that distinct flavor of double attack vs OH procs.

What I may have missed it how the 2hf feats affect 2h wpns now. Does it still grant glancing blow damage while stationary or something else? Does it do absolutely no glancing damage when moving or 'twitching"?

[ripperj]

assuming I read Eladrin's post right, if you proc on your main hand then you also proc on any additional (either offhand or double strike) attacks as well. If you're spending Ki then you're guaranteed the ki attack on your main hand and also potentially getting it on offhand and double strike.

Garth

does that also work with cleave/assassinate/quivering palm?

[Brother_Solar]

So to compensate builds who loose 10% they could increase the amount of damage for off hand attacks. It seems that this problem is really about a CPU crunching a long sequence of numbers very frequently, so don't change the string of off hand numbers just make one of the existing variables higher in the off for those affected.

Well, therein lies the other issue. The developers (or, if not "developers" then at least Eladrin has mentioned it) of the opinion that TWF builds are doing too much damage over THF builds. They seem to believe that a 10% DPS reduction to TWF will put the different build types back to where they should be in relation to eachother.

I haven't done an in depth study between THF vs. TWF with "standard gear" yet, so I don't know where to stand on that issue just now. I'm inclined to give the developers the benefit of the doubt until I've run a number of calculations.

They're aiming for two birds with one stone. It's hard to say how effective the rock will be at hitting each of the birds.

[Calebro]

They're aiming for two birds with one stone. It's hard to say how effective the rock will be at hitting each of the birds.

They are actually two separate stones, that look like one stone when put together.
The first is a reduction of the number of physics/disatnce checks by automatically assuming the target is in range for the off hand.
The second is a change from Feats checks every attack to a flat percentile chance for the off hand to proc.

[Chuutritt]

Have to see how it all works out. If the changes result in the cookie cutter FOTM mele types being brought closer to par with straight up level 20 melee types it will be a good thing. If you give up something or similar value to get what your obtaining from splitting classes I see this as a good thing, as it is the game seems to excessively favor certain types of mixed builds. My main concern is whether this might hurt certain pure builds too much and make the FOTM even more preferable. In particular, I'm concerned that pure rogue builds might take a big hit here. Monsters and Exploiters, etc I'm not too worried about as they are already somewhat out of whack.

[Angelus_dead]

I like the addition of STWF. It forces builders to make hard decisions.

Hard decisions like "Don't be a TWF Rogue, Bard, Cleric, Favored Soul, or Monk". And that's a good thing?

[ripperj]

Hard decisions like "Don't be a TWF Rogue, Bard, Cleric, Favored Soul, or Monk". And that's a good thing?

as it sits now, non of those classes would be able to get it due to BAB restrictions,

[Havenor]

I´m probably the most unqualified person to raise my voice here..../snip...becouse this game is very mutch like the real thing beside the part of the "role playing" thing. We use this game reading the dialogs in the quests and fell like if we are back at the old times.
Maybe i´m wrong, but i think that you guys are aiming at the other group, that ones are Free to play or just pay the regular V.I.P for some months than buy some packs as "the twelve" and "Amarath" and disturb all you developers and business mans to make their game faster and better.
So... becouse of this free players that have a lot of time to get here and say hell about the lag of this 3 or 4 raids... you guys will do a lot of changes that will transform a really good game, that is very mutch like the real one, in some bizarre monster game; and if you try adapt this no sense doble strike that has no logical explanation to this game just to compensate other thing... well thats is exactly what it will become.
Well, if this is the real thing and this is what this company is looking for i will cancel my account right when this update be release and i see that it´s not like was before, like a real representation of my old table game, and i think there´s more of me out there, that have no time to be here and complain about this, and this is the only reason why i´m here wasting my time and not just waiting to see what it will become and if come to be what i dislike i just turn off the computer and cancel my account.
I really hope that you guys look carfully to your real market share and see who you are listen.

P.S ---> I´m really sorry if ofend anyone and about my poor english, becouse this is not my mother language and i´m tired becouse here is more than 2 in the morning.

Well, if what you are upset about is this change not resembling PnP D&D, please tell me when any class in D&D, from any edition, was able to attack more than 60 times per minute. My main experience is with AD&D, and i do remember that a round was 1 minute (divided into 10 Segments of 6 seconds each), during which time most classes got to attack once. You were semi-tough if you got to attack twice in the even numbered rounds, and the truly badass got up to 3 attacks a minute with main-hand, and 1 more if TWF for a blinding swingspeed of 1 attack every 15 seconds, but at a significant penalty (unless you were using Traits and were ambidextrous). I know they sped things up in later editions, but still, attacking at faster than 1 second per swing is a far cry from the PnP you are so nostalgic about.

[countesscrow]

Ok, I can't find anything in this thread that answers my questions, so could someone to be frank and give me the straight up news on my current melee's. It looks like most of the testing is looking at Tempest, Pali's and Monks.

I wan't to know the effect of the proposed changes will be on my 4 melee's.

1. FB WF 18 Barbarian / 2 Rogue GTWF (HvY Picks/Khopesh) Base DEX: 17

2. FB Dorf 18 Barbarian / 2 Rogue GTWF (DA) Base DEX: 17

3. Kensai WF 18 Fighter / 2 Rogue GTWF (Khopesh) Base DEX: 17

4. Assassin Halfling 20 Rogue GTWF (Rapier) Base DEX: Can't remember, maxed out DEX.

Thank you and I appreciate your time if you answer my questions.

Erek

I have the exact same question but about just one build.

1. Kensai WF 12, Monk 8 with Windstand 2 and of course GTWF.

[eonfreon]

as it sits now, non of those classes would be able to get it due to BAB restrictions,

Yes. And A_D's point is why is that a good thing? Specifically why should it be; either be a full TWF melee OR be a Warchanter, Rogue, Favored Soul, etc. and not be a full TWF melee type?

[78mackson]

Have to see how it all works out. If the changes result in the cookie cutter FOTM mele types being brought closer to par with straight up level 20 melee types it will be a good thing. If you give up something or similar value to get what your obtaining from splitting classes I see this as a good thing, as it is the game seems to excessively favor certain types of mixed builds. My main concern is whether this might hurt certain pure builds too much and make the FOTM even more preferable. In particular, I'm concerned that pure rogue builds might take a big hit here. Monsters and Exploiters, etc I'm not too worried about as they are already somewhat out of whack.

No offense, but ever since capstones was raised pure builds are the FOTM... and pure builds are the true min/maxers..

[Angelus_dead]

as it sits now, non of those classes would be able to get it due to BAB restrictions,

Plus half of the existing TWF characters of those classes couldn't get STWF due to either dexterity or feat slots. To get 17 dex is tough for many guys; but 19 dex is barely possible.

Or a finesse character would hit the dex naturally, but a nonhuman Rogue has 7 feat slots. GTWF, PA, IC, and Finesse already leave just one, which mostly goes for Toughness but can be Skill Focus. If STWF is added (and the BAB requirement isn't prohibitive) then that means all seven of the Rogue's feat slots go to merely the baseline function of "Standard attacks with my weapons". There's zero room for even a sliver of interesting customization, whether for special attack manuevers (Cleave, Sap, Slicing Blow, Hamstring) or defensive and utility bonuses.

A dual-wielding Paladin would be in the same situation, except with khopesh instead of finesse.

[Roziel_Longblade]

Yes. And A_D's point is why is that a good thing? Specifically why should it be; either be a full TWF melee OR be a Warchanter, Rogue, Favored Soul, etc. and not be a full TWF melee type?

It will be tough for any class to muster the feats for STWF except for fighters. Barbs, Pallies, and Rangers will all need to give up something to get it. Bards, Rogues and other 3/4BAB types will need to deal with 80% OH or consider multiclassing. If you already have a pure, 3/4BAB class, 2wf build I can understand the frustration at getting a dps hit.

DDO might consider lowering the BAB for the feat and/or change the TR feat of fighter to +x BAB so 3/4 BAB classes that TR from fighter have a shot at the feat. A tweak like that would only be to make a smooth transition for some builds.

That being said, I dont think that STWF would a build maker or breaker.

[Souless]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
I won’t hide that these proposed changes do reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting. Skipping the extreme outlier of the Epic Sword of Shadows (we got a little carried away there, didn’t we?), estimated damage output over time for the two styles should be extremely close to each other if we go this route. (Which style is superior ends up being heavily dependent on your character's abilities.)

It is a separate issue, yes.
BUT
They also thought of a way to further reduce lag slightly by changing the dynamics of exactly how TWF works. So the nerf was because it needed it, as shown by this part of Eldarin's post:

This, to me, makes it obvious that they intended to nerf it anyway at some point.
So the fact that they thought of a way to do that by also reducing lag was just gravy.

This is where I have an issue....Where is the extreem dominance to which u speak of occuring?

It has already been stated in this thread that THF have the advantage at lower levels because the TWF's lack the feats to support the build.....

At shroud levels the twf's catch up (they say in this thread).....

I say maybe......but the extreme dominance over two handed fighting I am just not seeing. 2HF do just fine. Prove me wrong if u can...but I doubt it.....I have seen too many 2HF's kickin tail and taking names...

And ealier I spoke of the ESOS, in the grps that I run with...that is the weapon barbs are grinding for....and posses....so to discount it on some future nerf...just like twitch, is silly. The game is being played with both...what is...is....

I have even heard commented while short-manning the epic dragon.."Oh we have 3 ESOS's in grp...we'll be fine." when asked do we think we have enough dps.

So I take issue with this "extreme dominance"...I have NEVER heard in groups....Oh we have 3 barbs using min2/lit2 khop's we'll be fine.

So i just say: prove that twf dominates 2hf at any stage of the game...

And all this has nothing to do with the lag issue. I say eliminate the necessary physics check to eliminate lag (if that will actually work), I don't care if my off-hand sword hits an already dead/moved/whatever monster....just don't make my grinded for items usless/weakened/minimalized/whatever as it appears the devs are going to do.

The Bytcher~

Souless/Xbow/Valice/Tazzor/Spectyr/Vampir/Xindao/Richgirl

[Ollathir]

assuming I read Eladrin's post right, if you proc on your main hand then you also proc on any additional (either offhand or double strike) attacks as well. If you're spending Ki then you're guaranteed the ki attack on your main hand and also potentially getting it on offhand and double strike.



Assuming a monk in wind 4 and full twf feats, and assuming I've read Eladrin correctly, and assuming a specific exception to these rules for ToD hasn't been made... then a monk hitting ToD has a 74% chance of hitting for 1000, a 18% chance of hitting for 500, and a 8% chance of hitting for 1500 (avg 950 for 50ki).

Garth

May be the case, but it seems more likely to me that when this goes live ToD wont proc in the offhand, and will only proc at 10%(or basically next to no) chance with Double Strike bonus.

[zorander6]

This may be a dumb question but why not offload some of the calculations to the client side rather than server side? Ok, get rid of the extra calc for in range, let the client side roll and then decide to proc the second hand in TWF instead of the server doing so. Just feed the server more compiled numbers rather than having the server do all the work. Granted on slower computers that will cause problems but a few extra calcs on my end won't hurt anything I don't think.....

[chubbs99]

Not possible given the d20 system. With the values you suggested everyone else with slightly better than "standard" gear will pretty much be auto-hitting. GH alone will cover the gap. Add in bard songs and other buffs and half of the d20 is already covered.

Thats not necessarily true if they do it right. A good minimum to hit by level 20 is what (assuming full DPS class),

BAB 20
Str +7
GH +4
Bard +4-+8 (so, say +6)
Monk Walk on the sun +1
Rage spell +1
Haste +1
+5 Weapon +5

giving you a chain of 45/45/50/55/55. Plus the d20 roll.

What I'm saying is, then increase trash mob AC to around 47. So you have to roll a 3 or better which comes up 90% of the time.

Red name bosses around 52 AC. Meaning unless you crit on your first 2 hits they will miss, and then a 90% chance on your third attack, and 2 auto hits (assuming no 1's). giving an over all. This would also bring usefulness to confirm critical. As the feat power critial alone is +4, this would give you an confirmation roll of 49, meaning a 4 or better is needed to confirm, or 80% chance.

For Purple Raid bosses, AC should be about 57. Again No hits with first 2 swings, but a 60% chance to confirm crit (with Power Crit), a 65% chance to hit with your third attack, and a 90% chance with your last 2 attacks.

As I said, when Raising the Mob AC, an HP reduction should follow suit, This way battle should take just as long, and just as many resources are used keeping the fight the same difficulty. Logically then, there is no real loss in loosing a few hits every attack sequence since those few won't matter in the long run. This should also slow down the long flood of numbers the server has to calculate reducing the chance to see DPS lag.

[Merlocke]

We’re also considering introducing a new mechanic to replace some speed bonus effects, called double strike:

For a future update, we’re considering revisiting some old items (such as Jorgundal’s Collar, which currently doesn’t stack with Haste) and replacing the effects with a double strike effect.

Fighter Alacrity (capstone) now grants a +10% bonus to double attack with the main hand instead of a 10% speed increase.
The Paladin spell Zeal now grants a +10% Sacred bonus to double attack with the main hand instead of a 10% speed increase.

What about the madstone boots 20% attack-speed boost? will that be changed as well?

It reduces the number of permanent speed increases in the game ............ and makes the off-hand more unpredictable than before. It is also (on average) reducing the frequency of off-hand attacks.

No one wants to lose attacks are you serious?
Most people I play with they dont want to feel like they are attacking in slow motion.

Every melee loves the haste spell and abilities that stack with haste help to increase attack speed/DPS. Taking these away will make DDO melee combat slow-paced more boring and last longer!

[TiranBlade]

These are serious questions for Eladrin and the Dev team that I think if they would implement it would cause a shift of opinion in the changes being handled on the matter of altering the fuction of Two Weapon Fighting and have more people join onto the combat system changes, as they would be easier to implement with the changes being made to the system.

1. Verstile Weapon Property: With the changes currently being planned, would it be possible to open up the option of the Verstile Weapon property? This property would allow a player to automatically wield a single One Handed Weapon with the Verstile Weapon property as Two Handed for the purposes of damage as long as they use nothing in thier Off Hand. Examples of Versitle Weapons would include the Bastard Sword and the Dwarven War Axe.

2. Double Weapon Property: With the changes currently being planned, would it be possible to open up the option of the Double Weapon property? This property would allow a player to automatically wield a Double Weapon as a single weapon that fuctions as Two Weapons for the purposes of Two Weapon Fighting. In effect allowing that specific single weapon to proc Off Hand attacks as well as being the Main Hand weapon. A weapon with this property though would not gain 1 and 1/2 times strength modifier on the Main Hand attack. Example of a Double Weapon would be Quarterstaff (Double), an altered version of the Quarterstaff, leaving the original quarterstaff to become Quarterstaff (Two Handed).

3. Finesse Weapon Property: With the introduction of properties, would it be possible to open up the option of the Finesse Weapon proterty? Though redundant of the current fuction of the Rapier, it would allow a clear understanding that a weapon with this property can be used with the Weapon Finesse feat. On this note you could introduce this function if you wish to add weapons listed from D&D v.3.5 suppliments, such as the Elven Courtblade Sword from Races of the Wild, you could introduce the One Handed Finesse Weapon and the Two Handed Finesse Weapon Properties, to allow a greater ability to add more content to the game.

***A note on these properties, they do not function as Enchantments but as part of the weapon as normal, similar to the Light Weapon, One Handed Weapon, and Two Handed Weapon discriptions.

These are some ideas if I saw happen, and if I am understanding the way you are recoding the combat system, all of these would be possible aside from the Finesse Weapon property which is already running in the game currently, though without a solid name to signify it.

UPDATE: I have created a Suggestion Forum Thread for discussion of this idea. I would like to hear player opinion of this idea on this thread or in my New Thread.

Thank you,
TiranBlade