Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Vint]

I have not read many of the "Nerf" posts, just have a question that might have been answered. If TWF is going to get nerfed, give players a Deconstruction of there GS weapons. This is not very popular with some and it is all about the grind, but some people, including myself have 4 or more characters with min 2 Picks, D Axes, what not...that dont want to keep shrouding as they keep nerfing.

If the TWF "nerf is not that big an issue, please disreguard.


P.S. I Love Beagles

[WirelessJoe]

Well, I can't read through all 78 pages to see if this is addressed, but it looks like rogues, who have midland feat choices, poor capstone, low AC etc. have now had their only outstaning characteristic, DPS, nerfed by approximately 25%. Since my rogue is my only toon, I guess I won't be losing much if this turns out to be true and I stop paying/playing. What's the point of having my two very expensive (in time and materials) GS rapiers when I'll be missing half the time with my off hand, or am I missing something?

[Rexmundis]

Yeh, I really don't understand where the Devs are coming about that TWF in Eladrin's words "Far Exceed THF in DPS" when in reality at end game it does NOT. (then if you account for eSoS THF actually is GREATER then TWF).

I think the devs understand this (somewhat) and thus have made it possible to achieve 110% mainhand and 100% offhand at endgame (given STWF...although I hope and pray this will be just an auto feat because it will hurt a lot of builds if the reqs stay the same).

However, in reality TWF should ALWAYS be more powerful then THF just by the virtue of a ton more feats/weapons/time invested into it. If this thing were to go live the devs will need to consider/implement the following beforehand.

1.) Consider toning down the Reqs for STWF (if you truly truly truly want this feat...although I think this is a pandora's box in the making).

2.) You MUST NERF epic SoS before any of this goes live (that is a PRIORITY 1 I will SERIOUSLY QUIT (not a threat but a promise) if eSoS stays where it is and my TWF toons get nerfed hardcore.

3.) THF will definetly need it's grazing hit during movement nerfed too to keep it in lock step with the massive nerf for TWF.

To be fair, this is the way I see it.

As of now,

Currently:
TWF costs 100$ but I get 90$ worth of goods.
THF costs 70$ but I get 90$ (possibly 100$ if you throw in eSoS) worth of goods.


Post-Nerf:

TWF costs 150$ (due to the extra feats/reqs/hardship in leveling <-probably biggest factor) I get 80$ worth back.
THF costs 70$ but I get 80$ worth of goods back (if eSoS is thrown in, it remains at 90$)

[aLiishere78]

well my feelings on this BIG TWF NERF...

is that they look at is as a way to generate more cash from the older player base...through TRs LRs and GRs

and at the same time disregarding us because the new people who dont have wat we have from 4 years of grind will then be equalled up in dps.....now any newb can easily make a barb THF and out dps some vets TWF baby whose had 4 years of attention.....

this is wat this nerf is about nothing to do with lag at all....seeing as the lag has to do with GS procs and not so much offhand attacks and or TWF dps

wat i dont get is how 5 dollars to be premium out wieghs a full vip payment but i guess that turbine has a bigger money crunch going on......

so hey. I play thf barb. I am in game for 4 years. i am vip. How do you out wieght me ?

This is more of fix than a nerf.

Thumbs up.

[moonprophet]

I like it although it would seem to me that Tempest Ranger should have 100%/100%, if it is to keep its place as the example of 'best/perfect twf'.

I actually got the DPS lag thing one night in Devil's Assault (normal, believe it or not), and suffered Lag-death as a result.

I would also consider the monk the "perfect" two-weapon fighter, as the handwrap is the monks primary weapon. What I ultimately want to know is this. I am gonna be completely selfish here. How is this going to affect the damage output on my main toon (monk 13/rogue4/pal3) with greater twf and wind stance 2? I rely on a large number of attacks and lots of elemental damage rather than a single big attack. I play this toon because I have fun with it. Will I still be having fun with it after the proposed changes (ie: still able to be as effective in solo and group play as now), and will the PERCEPTION of my effectiveness still be the same (allowing me to pug without becoming an outcast)?

If the answer to either of these questiosn is NO, then I will be spending alot more time engaging in other persuits. I did not put 4 million xp into a toon to have it made unenjoyable to play.

Please find another way to fix the lag issue. Spread out the server population, verify hit proximity in a different manner, or just leave it alone. The REAL truth is that the lag problem just isnt that bad. It is not preventing players from completing content 99.99% of the time. Also, no matter WHAT you do to fix lag, players will always have SOME lag. Unless you can controll the performance of the machines your client is runing on, and the internet service providers between here and there, you will NEVER eliminate lag. Another truth is that there is a percentage of lag complaints that are imaginary and used as an excuse for player performance. Everyone knows someone, or is someone that has at least once blamed lag for a personal mistake.

Just my 2 coppers.

[joneb1999]

It seems to me that due to their stereotype in fantasy adventure its only fair that rogues are looked upon as natural 2 weapon fighters in their basic proficiency that they get at first. This would mean that either they get a rogue only feat that allows them to always get the chance to hit on offhand or gives them a huge percentage increase to get that chance when using their basic weapons such as daggers, shortswords and rapiers. However any additional weapon proficiency from for instance a splash of fighter or from taking a feat in another weapon wont be included.

[Rav'n]

Look at that... we took a Lemon Thread and turned it into Lemonade! Or...since this is DDO.... maybe it's Lemon-Aide!






Oh... I prefer Angel Food Cake!! Baked a week prior and left out to get Stale! Tear off a handfull and Eat!

YUMMYNESS!!!

[SaisMatters]

they will NEVER do a GS deconstuct. The Devs have said this MANY times. Everyone get that through your thick skulls!!!!
Its not a nerf, twf is still a viable option, and this ISNT SET IN STONE
STOP THE WHINNING

[Natashaelle]

Yeh, I really don't understand where the Devs are coming about that TWF in Eladrin's words "Far Exceed THF in DPS" when in reality at end game it does NOT. (then if you account for eSoS THF actually is GREATER then TWF).

I don't think he's referring to the powergamer's endgame in those comments, but to the overall balance between 2WF and 2HF including among the more casual gamers...

[Razcar]

Well, I can't read through all 78 pages to see if this is addressed, but it looks like rogues, who have midland feat choices, poor capstone, low AC etc. have now had their only outstaning characteristic, DPS, nerfed by approximately 25%. Since my rogue is my only toon, I guess I won't be losing much if this turns out to be true and I stop paying/playing. What's the point of having my two very expensive (in time and materials) GS rapiers when I'll be missing half the time with my off hand, or am I missing something?

You'll loose 20% of your off-hand attacks. What sucks for rogues is that they rely on a steady stream of sneak attacks instead of big crits for their DPS. Kind of like monks, who also rely on a steady flow of attacks. However, monks are in the minds (and TWF table) of the devs, while rogues are not.

[Asketes]

Round and round we go

[Glenalth]

Happy Birthday.

[Ollathir]

Well, I can't read through all 78 pages to see if this is addressed, but it looks like rogues, who have midland feat choices, poor capstone, low AC etc. have now had their only outstaning characteristic, DPS, nerfed by approximately 25%. Since my rogue is my only toon, I guess I won't be losing much if this turns out to be true and I stop paying/playing. What's the point of having my two very expensive (in time and materials) GS rapiers when I'll be missing half the time with my off hand, or am I missing something?

Nah, didnt miss anything.

[Tabun]

Yeh, I really don't understand where the Devs are coming about that TWF in Eladrin's words "Far Exceed THF in DPS" when in reality at end game it does NOT. (then if you account for eSoS THF actually is GREATER then TWF).

I think the devs understand this (somewhat) and thus have made it possible to achieve 110% mainhand and 100% offhand at endgame (given STWF...although I hope and pray this will be just an auto feat because it will hurt a lot of builds if the reqs stay the same).

However, in reality TWF should ALWAYS be more powerful then THF just by the virtue of a ton more feats/weapons/time invested into it. If this thing were to go live the devs will need to consider/implement the following beforehand.

1.) Consider toning down the Reqs for STWF (if you truly truly truly want this feat...although I think this is a pandora's box in the making).

2.) You MUST NERF epic SoS before any of this goes live (that is a PRIORITY 1 I will SERIOUSLY QUIT (not a threat but a promise) if eSoS stays where it is and my TWF toons get nerfed hardcore.

3.) THF will definetly need it's grazing hit during movement nerfed too to keep it in lock step with the massive nerf for TWF.

To be fair, this is the way I see it.

As of now,

Currently:
TWF costs 100$ but I get 90$ worth of goods.
THF costs 70$ but I get 90$ (possibly 100$ if you throw in eSoS) worth of goods.


Post-Nerf:

TWF costs 150$ (due to the extra feats/reqs/hardship in leveling <-probably biggest factor) I get 80$ worth back.
THF costs 70$ but I get 80$ worth of goods back (if eSoS is thrown in, it remains at 90$)

good post

[Krag]

People keep saying that 2WF is so much better than 2HF, when the truth is at end game this is no longer true. EPIC groups and TOD raids are much more likely to turn down rogues and rangers and take barbarians and 2HF kensai. You can't swing a dead halfling at end game without hitting a WF barbarian. 2HF is only slightly less DPS than 2WF when you don't consider ESOS. With ESOS, 2HF is now superior. Shade's DPS challenge has demonstrated that 2HF is superior v. 100% fort mobs with unbypassable DR. The various methods of boosting strength and critical damage have pushed 2HF to a near balanced level with 2WF, even though 2WF requires more grinding for gear, more DEX, and more feats (I would consider Oversized 2WF feat a necessity). Please stop with the misdirection that somehow 2HF is so far behind 2WF.

Do not forget EWP: Khopesh. Yeah, we are talking about 2 feat difference.

[chubbs99]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, or brought up recently.
But what about doing a larger fix to the system in general to even everything out.

by the time you hit level 20, hell even maybe 15, everything is 100% hit able all the time on a non gimped character. Because of this, we see mobs with blanket immunities and HP values rivaling Apple's Stock value.

Rather then decreasing combat speed, why not increase Monsters AC while Reducing HP. Make it so "standard" (used loosely, not looking at someone in full Raid/Epic/Greensteel) gear would be hitting trash 90~100% of the time, Red name bosses 80~90% of the time. and Purple raid bosses 70~80% of the time. If the scales are re-balanced properly I would think that because mobs are receiving less blows the system wouldn't lag to the swarm of numbers flying at it, while at the same time combat takes just as long (due to reduced HP values), and combat speed remains the same keeping people happy.

Granted, since THF get less attacks per min, maybe throw them a bone and leave them with double strike, or extra str bonus or something. So that when they hit they hit HARD where was the TWF people are just the flurry of smaller blows. And S&B.... Alot more has to be reworked for S&B to work in combat

[moonprophet]

Ten more pages of, "Woe is me. I'm not going to have superior DPS, so THF is going to be viable, making me useless. I'm going to quit the game."

I had several characters affected by the evasion nerf, and that was back when it wasn't nearly as easy to level as it is now.

Evasion was not nerfed. it was broken. You were taking advantage of an exploit that allowed you to use evasion with heavier armor than the rules intended. This is not the same thing. The current system does not violate established rules. This is not even being PRESENTED by the devs as a rule fix. It is being presented as fixing an IT problem. Gameplay is clearly a SECONDARY consideration here.

If you DO NOT believe the devs, then this change is nothing but a nerf. Frankly, I don;t think they would go through THIS much trouble JUST to screw with the player base. That being said, regardless of the INTENT, this will quite possibly nerf TWF. Wether or not it makes those builds obsolete, or UN-FUN to play, remains to be seen.

[karnokvolrath]

This thread for the win.

Never before has such blantant hijackery been on full display.

Rav'n, you rock. Cant pass any rep your way ATM, but your on the list for tomarrow .

I mean c'mon, without this thread we'd have all gone to Kepli's Birthday party expecting Birthday Cake!

[suitepotato]

I am a DDO God!! I am uber!! I do more damage than anyone!!!! Wait, you are nerfing me?? You mean my TWF uberness is going to come down to the lvls of scrubby THF?? There is no room for balance in this game I say!! I'm gonna fight this. I'm gonna kick and scream and cry!!! I am gonna nerdrage until the heavens quake and the Gods fear my wrath!! I'm gonna...well...screw it, I'm gonna adapt.

Good attitude. When your mechanic says he's merely going to ask you to use the brakes less instead of fixing them, adapt. When your plumber says you should go in a bucket and compost it instead of having him fix your pipes, adapt. When your dentist hands you a tube of Anbesol and says he's not fixing your broken tooth, adapt. When your kid's teacher says they'll get by fine with a box of Cliff's Notes instead of going to school, adapt. When your doctor says that dying isn't so bad instead of getting that surgery, adapt.

The problem isn't TWF, it's that they designed a system that their hardware and architecture and coding skills aren't up to snuff to scale up with usage. So, instead of fixing that, they're reducing the usage. As the numbers of people continue to go up, the problem will remain, namely that their systems are loltastically incapable of scaling, and we'll be back to where we started.

They're raising a sinking boat by lowering the ocean. It's the only idea they've demonstrated any affinity for to date.

[krud]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, or brought up recently.
But what about doing a larger fix to the system in general to even everything out.

by the time you hit level 20, hell even maybe 15, everything is 100% hit able all the time on a non gimped character. Because of this, we see mobs with blanket immunities and HP values rivaling Apple's Stock value.

Rather then decreasing combat speed, why not increase Monsters AC while Reducing HP. Make it so "standard" (used loosely, not looking at someone in full Raid/Epic/Greensteel) gear would be hitting trash 90~100% of the time, Red name bosses 80~90% of the time. and Purple raid bosses 70~80% of the time. If the scales are re-balanced properly I would think that because mobs are receiving less blows the system wouldn't lag to the swarm of numbers flying at it, while at the same time combat takes just as long (due to reduced HP values), and combat speed remains the same keeping people happy.

Granted, since THF get less attacks per min, maybe throw them a bone and leave them with double strike, or extra str bonus or something. So that when they hit they hit HARD where was the TWF people are just the flurry of smaller blows. And S&B.... Alot more has to be reworked for S&B to work in combat

Not possible given the d20 system. With the values you suggested everyone else with slightly better than "standard" gear will pretty much be auto-hitting. GH alone will cover the gap. Add in bard songs and other buffs and half of the d20 is already covered.