Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Boromirs]

What all these "Lets bring them down to our levels" MUST realize is that TWF is extremely costly to get to it where it is, there are a whole lot of other aspects of the game that people who want to TWF well must bite the bullet for in order to get TWF to where it is.

Folks, if you pay 100$ for something you want it to be really good, if you pay 50$ for something it's probably only half as good...now you THFers and non TWFers want to pay 50$ BUT WANT THE 100$ ITEM. THATS JUST NOT GOING TO WORK.

[Halock]

Where do "non-stance" monks stand?

Well, they're far closer to Wind stance DPS with the change than they were before (if they're Hasted). This isn't because they are being buffed, but rather because Wind stance is being reduced.

With the latest revision that Eladrin posted last night, Wind IV will supply a 10% "Double Strike" chance, but will not affect the off-hand attacks at all. My assumption is that the lower tiers of Wind stance will provide an incrimental increase up to the 10% for Wind IV (Wind I: 2.5%, Wind II: 5%, Wind III: 7.5%).

For the current Wind IV, monks will make 128 attacks per round with each hand for a total of 256 attack rolls.

With the proposed change, Wind IV monks will make 115*1.1 = 126 main hand attacks and 115*0.8 = 92 off hand attacks for a total of 218 attack rolls.

Non-stance monks will only be making 5% fewer attacks as long as they are hasted. 115 main hand and 115*0.8 = 92 off hand for a total of 207 attacks per minute.

For a table:
Stance			Attacks/Min
Current Wind IV		256
Proposed Wind IV	218
Current Other		230		
Proposed Other		207

I feel this is a good change as it brings non-wind stances closer to Wind IV, making other options more available. However, it is a larger nerf to Wind stance than any of the others. All TWF classes are being nerfed, non-Wind monks are receiving an equivalent nerf, and Wind monks are receiving a slightly larger nerf.

Non-wind monks will be doing 90% of their current DPS. Wind monks will be doing 85% of their current DPS.

As has been shown a large portion of monk dps stems from their ki strikes and added effects, with offhand hooks now being random no longer guaranteeing double KI strikes, isnt it even a larger nerf to monk dps than these straight number of attacks show?

Eg: Earth strike 4, no double proc, earth strike 3, no double proc, earth strike 2, proc, earth strike 1, proc as opposed to all double procing in the current scenario at cap + all feats etc.
This also affects pallies and their smites etc and i'm not sure how may other classes.

Also, the double strike only has a chance to proc off main hand attacks correct? If so thats another bit of lost ground for monks

[Aashrym]

I would really like to hear a comment from a dev about implementing a double strike ability for rogues, like in the form of the Opportunist special ability. It would be nice to know if it's something the devs would consider.

Yes, I think the opportunist idea was the best idea I've seen in this thread.

/signed.

[Borror0]

BAB and attack bonus are not the same thing. BAB affects number of attack and final bonus on the chain.

BAB stops giving "more attacks" and increased to-hit on those extra swings at 3 BAB. Your understanding of BAB is outdated by several months. BAB stopped working like you describe in the second week of September 2009.

One thing you do not mention is tiny bonus to attack speed that comes with 20 BAB but that is negligible.

I thought you were asking for something similar to the BAB bonus from Divine Power.

He is asking for exactly that and it's a relatively minor bonus.

[jcTharin]

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
VVVVVVVVVVVV
vvvvvvvvvvvv
VVVVVVVVV
VVVVVVVVV
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
VVVVVVVVVVVVV
VVVVVVVVV
vvvvvvvvvvvvv
vvvvvvvvvvvv
vvvvvvvvvv

BUMP


maybe this wont get lost in here
but A SERIOUS QUESTION that even in the monk forums i cant get an answer

where on that chart do monks NOT in wind IV fall?
i know they wont be under 'other' since we get a natural increase in attack speed as we lvl
so where would a lvl 20 no stance monk be?

and about stwf, its rumored to be BAB 16, monks dont even get that high..well we do when centered, but that doesnt count for feat purposes, so does that mean we're excluded?

Look above your own post

/facepalm

i just felt that this needed to be thrown in

[Natashaelle]

i just felt that this needed to be thrown in

So, I guess that's another vote in favour of adding the Opportunist special ability then ?

[Aashrym]

BAB stops giving "more attacks" and increased to-hit on those extra swings at 3 BAB. Your understanding of BAB is outdated by several months. BAB stopped working like you describe in the second week of September 2010.

One thing you do not mention is tiny bonus to attack speed that comes with 20 BAB but that is negligible.

He is asking for exactly that and it's a relatively minor bonus.

That's good to know. I missed that one and never hit that BAB on a bard.

[moorewr]

What all these "Lets bring them down to our levels" MUST realize is that TWF is extremely costly to get to it where it is, there are a whole lot of other aspects of the game that people who want to TWF well must bite the bullet for in order to get TWF to where it is.

Folks, if you pay 100$ for something you want it to be really good, if you pay 50$ for something it's probably only half as good...now you THFers and non TWFers want to pay 50$ BUT WANT THE 100$ ITEM. THATS JUST NOT GOING TO WORK.

This might be true if you are talking two GS items v. one. But in general that's not a good way to look at TWF v. THF.

[Timjc86]

oh wait I got one...


successfully Bluffing an opponent could add a 5% DS bonus... and Improved Feint could make that +10% for 6 sec


that would be a benefit for Rogues and other Bluff masters (bardsI guess) and actually make Bluff useful for a change

Replying as I make my way through the thread; I apologize if this has been brought up already and I just haven't reached it.

That's a good idea, but for it to really work, Bluff's animation would have to be changed so that it doesn't take the time it currently does. It's been years since I've played with Improved Feint but I recall it basically being an attack. As long as it seamlessly folds into your attack chain (as monk ki strikes do) then that's fine.

[Ollathir]

Eladrin has already stated they that they feel that TWF is overly dominant and needs to be nerfed... would people stop acting like they're trying to pull the wool over their eyes?

The problem with "democracy" and player feedback is that the average person only cares about his own self interest and will rabidly fight anything that threatens it.

Turbine might have to make some hard decisions here... there are obviously an overwhelming number of players here who are against this, for turbine it's a made your bed now lay in it problem... to fix the large disparity between S&B and TWF/THF they need to knock both of them down a little (very little in the case of THF) to make any buffs to S&B not be so drastic... TWF is still more uber than THF with this nerf (as it should be due to the possible need for an extra feat for OTWF) unless you're one of the teeny tinny few who have an Epic Sword of Shadows... In other words unless you're among a handfull of players. This nerf does not make TWF inferior to THF; and the game can not be balanced for a handful of extreme outlier players who are a minority even among the minority who grind epic content...

The game must be balanced for the majority... and the majority will never even SEE an Epic SoS in action let alone grind for one... If ESoS is such a problem then they'll need to put in something equally as epic (and rare) for dual wielders and make it exclusive, Epic TWF Khopesh in main hand and GS in the other...

For the record I hate the double strike idea, it's a klunker. But i recognize that it's a bone thrown in to try and lessen the pain of a needed adjustment to the TWF style... And also slow combat down a little. The actual TWF nerf is really not that bad... 10-15% is a small thing... except to those who are most self centered, most "min maxed" and play the game thinking they and everyone that dares join their party, MUST be optimal... or they are the scum of the earth "gimps" "short bus" players, etc....

Sadly the nerf that DDO most needs, is a nerf of Munchkins...

I believe its pretty much a done deal. To me this seems more of a 'get this out of your system' deal.

Giving a TWF a % chance to actually use his other arm in addition to a lower To-Hit bonus while TWF = Dont bother with TWF when the THF will edge it out with extra Con and To-Hit bonus.

[Quijonsith]

BAB stops giving "more attacks" and increased to-hit on those extra swings at 3 BAB. Your understanding of BAB is outdated by several months. BAB stopped working like you describe in the second week of September 2010.

One thing you do not mention is tiny bonus to attack speed that comes with 20 BAB but that is negligible.

He is asking for exactly that and it's a relatively minor bonus.

Borror0 is an alien from the future!!!

[jcTharin]

So, I guess that's another vote in favour of adding the Opportunist special ability then ?

yep

[Grendyll]

People keep saying that 2WF is so much better than 2HF, when the truth is at end game this is no longer true. EPIC groups and TOD raids are much more likely to turn down rogues and rangers and take barbarians and 2HF kensai. You can't swing a dead halfling at end game without hitting a WF barbarian. 2HF is only slightly less DPS than 2WF when you don't consider ESOS. With ESOS, 2HF is now superior. Shade's DPS challenge has demonstrated that 2HF is superior v. 100% fort mobs with unbypassable DR. The various methods of boosting strength and critical damage have pushed 2HF to a near balanced level with 2WF, even though 2WF requires more grinding for gear, more DEX, and more feats (I would consider Oversized 2WF feat a necessity). Please stop with the misdirection that somehow 2HF is so far behind 2WF.

[Borror0]

Why you are so concerned that classes with more going for them than melee need to be so concerned about the melee ability of a class that pretty much has nothing but melee going for it.

You keep avoiding Angelus_dead's question:
In what way will it improve the game to further reduce the effectiveness of TWF Clerics and Favored Souls?

Those builds have made sacrifices to get there and, unless their power level is somewhat upsetting to game balance, it makes no sense to nerf them. Those builds don't "more going for them" than melee; melee is part of their abilities, because they specced for it. The reason to be "so concerned" is that it will weaken builds that were not overpowered which will unnecessarily upset the players who specced that way and reduce the diversity in the game as less popular builds get even weaker.

You're arguing against it because it potentially helps other classes and not all.

He is against it because it unnecessarily messes up with balance that didn't need to be messed with.

Again, answer the following question:
In what way will it improve the game to further reduce the effectiveness of TWF Clerics and Favored Souls?

If melee characters are too weak, or if TWF clerics and favored souls are too powerful, then it'd be alright to make this change but that is not the case. A change is justified if it has benificial effect which this change lacks. You defend your position with comments like "Melee classes should be much better at melee than TWF [cleric] and FvS" but, as already pointed to you, those classes are already better. How do you justify making them even better?

[Emili]

What all these "Lets bring them down to our levels" MUST realize is that TWF is extremely costly to get to it where it is, there are a whole lot of other aspects of the game that people who want to TWF well must bite the bullet for in order to get TWF to where it is.

Folks, if you pay 100$ for something you want it to be really good, if you pay 50$ for something it's probably only half as good...now you THFers and non TWFers want to pay 50$ BUT WANT THE 100$ ITEM. THATS JUST NOT GOING TO WORK.

The expenditure and cost of TWF is most deffinately higher then THF ... in practice THF is most definately an equal to TWF ... tested and seen in practice ... not on some spreadsheet against some stationary non-moving, million hp mob. Twf builds require a dex expenditure and often four feats compared to three feats into a THF... concentration on dex too much and other stats suffer with little payback in other areas...

Lets take two Kensai - one a TWF and the other a THF... A similar geared twitched THF with a GS G-axe (lightning strike or min II) is the equal of a TWF wielding two GS Khopesh (lightning strike or min II) for the most part in practice withing 10-150 dps of each other either way played by the same person given the quest circumstances... even though people tout the spreadsheet numbers - they do not hold true as this game contains more movement then any PnP game - Cycle breaks on TWF hurts damage output on that attack chain... but does not on a THF chain. The earlier the procs the more significant... Changing aspect on either side in the currect state of the game weilds the other better.

[Borror0]

Borror0 is an alien from the future!!!

I use the same system as car makers, to count years. *cough*

[Razcar]

So, I guess that's another vote in favour of adding the Opportunist special ability then ?

Or make rogues get 20% more loot than other classes. Hey, their off-hand must be doing something all that time when it is idle, and you know what they say about idle hands...

But seeing how the devs treated rogues up to now I guess they'll just give them 20% more hairy palms instead

[Tabun]

I have played since level cap 10. I have never had a real problem with any "nerf" .....until now...... Something like w/p that does not bug me at all not at all.. but something like a build nerf ... ouch there is about 40 large scales of mine invested in my main toon that will be effected by this thats alot of time and grinding in a game that flaunts its no grinding................ not to mention the "nerf" seems a bit strange does it not? to help with dps lag? are you kidding??? get better equipment with the oodles of new money comming in with the DDO store and what not ... and the nerfing of GTWF only boost the effectiveness of the F2P cats comming from the "hunters" in WoW a game that has nothing to do with D&D............ this one hurts guys glad I get to toss out my last 2.5 3 yrs whatever of shroud grinding to try to make a new top dps toon this is another example of long time players getting dumped on to try to get more players from wow. I like F2p it helps my game DDO get more money and keeps it here but it is being mismanaged and it makes me angry and sad. I have met a ton of great peeps and had alot of fun with the turbine guys on the forums I dont want to leave all this but it looks grim for me.

[DoctorWhofan]

you forgot something, dearheart.

*sighs*

Sorry, one DOOM! per person. He already had a doomed thread.

[KRaNiX1337]

Long story short, this thread really doesnt read as an "we may do this, what do you think?" kind of deal so much as "we are doing this, heres your warning, negative replies are just being ignored. Hi, Welcome." kind of deal.

On a side note, anyone notice their Polar Rays and firewalls doing bout 25% less damage the last few days?