Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[GottDDO]

Ten more pages of, "Woe is me. I'm not going to have superior DPS, so THF is going to be viable, making me useless. I'm going to quit the game."

I had several characters affected by the evasion nerf, and that was back when it wasn't nearly as easy to level as it is now.

[redgod]

ok guys lets see with the little proposed info who can build a build that will get twf with off hand attacks close to 100% while taking advantage of double strike as described well call it the lagbot

itll be the new craze thousands will copy it if you get it right and ddo will be all vanilla again (circa ranger rogue monk)
mod 8 dont forget epic gear and new prestige classes if its unballanced before they fix it maybe they wont break it

[Angelus_dead]

There's very few ways to raise your BAB - tensor's and DP, and that's how it should be.

A warchanter song to grant full BAB would be an alternative to DP clickies, and a weak one because it depends on outside character to provide the buff. Characters that can benefit from DP items would still carry them, so the hypothetical song would mainly be a convenience that saves them a bit of item swapping when a Warchanter is around. It does not provide a capability players couldn't already get.

[Angelus_dead]

I had several characters affected by the evasion nerf, and that was back when it wasn't nearly as easy to level as it is now.

Correction: You had several characters affected back when there hadn't been nearly as much effort invested in crafting weapons.

[Kepli_Moonshadow]

ok guys lets see with the little proposed info who can build a build that will get twf with off hand attacks close to 100% while taking advantage of double strike as described well call it the lagbot

itll be the new craze thousands will copy it if you get it right and ddo will be all vanilla again (circa ranger rogue monk)
mod 8 dont forget epic gear and new prestige classes if its unballanced before they fix it maybe they wont break it

Wow, you really are quite offended by the whole thing, huh?

That sucks. Well, if it makes you feel any better, tomorrow is my birthday! I'm having a BBQ (BYOB, no cake)

[IronClan]

As a new player to DDO/very old (Ultima Online) MMO player. This is the first time I have ever seen such a expansive change to a combat system before in the middle of a game's life cycle. This is pretty nuts, and although I don't have much time invested in DDO as of yet am VERY VERY WORRIED that a SUDDEN CHANGE may occur ON ANY BUILD I create in the future.

Dude did you play Ultima Online for more than the trial period?

[Visty]

Do you see Heroic Surge on Live??? Nope,....

hmm, i see it from time to time

strange if it never passed llama

[Calebro]

How is it good?

That hasn't been explained at all...just comments about the change....This nerf isn't going to solve lag issues, period.

All it will do is nerf my twf builds that I've ground out ingreds for...and whatever even if it's magionally...we are talking about game sweeping changes to MANY toons for the raid boss lag....to explain it thus is an insult.

The Bytcher~
and whats so wrong about calling the dev's into question....Or Bytchin when I am unfairly cheated.

No, the nerf will not solve lag issues. The nerf was never intended to solve lag issues. This is what some of you are having a hard time understanding after 75 pages.
Ignore the TWF nerf as a means to reduce lag. It is completely separate.

And yes, we are certainly talking about game sweeping changed to many toons, but the changes are needed.
As has been said many times, TWF was unmatched until ESoS showed up. The fact that so many toons now build their entire concept around the idea that they'll one day have it is testament to the fact that it's overpowered.
Remove it from the equation.
That leaves TWF as King again. But it still needs a nerf.

The original idea accomplished that goal. The new numbers, unfortunately, do not.
It's a step in the right direction, but we're far from done.

This change is a good thing, but IMO it isn't good enough. I know I'm in the minority on this one, but I actually preferred the original numbers.

[ripperj]

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maybe this wont get lost in here
but A SERIOUS QUESTION that even in the monk forums i cant get an answer

where on that chart do monks NOT in wind IV fall?
i know they wont be under 'other' since we get a natural increase in attack speed as we lvl
so where would a lvl 20 no stance monk be?

[moorewr]

A warchanter song to grant full BAB would be an alternative to DP clickies, and a weak one because it depends on outside character to provide the buff. Characters that can benefit from DP items would still carry them, so the hypothetical song would mainly be a convenience that saves them a bit of item swapping when a Warchanter is around. It does not provide a capability players couldn't already get.

I completely agree - and I have to say it isn't particularly good flavor. I think of warchanters as getting people worked up and enraged.. so more damage, not more accuracy is the right flavor.

If we really go down this "double hit" rabbit hole, I like your "Urgent Shout" idea.. a powerful short party buff is still impressive - maybe even too much so even in that form.

[Quijonsith]

I considered that new Warchanter song earlier and recommended against it. It would widen the melee DPS gap between Warchanter and non-Warchanter groups too much. Imagine if today the Haste cast by a Warchanter gave 10% more attack speed than other Hastes... that would be excessive, right? But that's rather what a Doublestrike song could do.

Here's a bit of elaboration on it. The naive way to make a Song of Doublestrike is for it to work like a regular bardsong with the same 3-6 minute duration, and for it to give a +10% increase to Doublestrike. That'll mean 10% more DPS from THF/S&B guys, 5% for STWF guys, and in between for other types of TWF builds. That could be similar results to a stacking +8 damage song, which is clearly very powerful and would have to be the primary benefit of Warchanter 2 or 3. But if they reduce the Doublestrike bonus to 5% or something then the song doesn't seem fun anymore, because players rarely ever notice it triggering.

So a better approach is to make it a bigger doublestrike bonus, but with a lower uptime (duration/cooldown ratio). That means that whenever the Warchanter uses it everyone can see the power boost, but he can't keep it going enough to be really imbalancing. Maybe something like this:

Urgent Shout: cost 30 sp, duration 8 sec, cooldown 60 sec, casting time very fast. Nearby allies gain a temporary +30% doublestrike. (Metamagic cannot apply)

That version has 13% uptime, so the total effective mainhand boost is 4%. It would be only one of several new effects Warchanters get, so it doesn't need to be the main attraction.


Sure, all three bard specialties need help. The ones not related to melee attacks would be pretty offtopic here.

Hmm, interesting insight A_D. You make a good point about the power vs. duration. What you say would make it more like monk buffs where the benefit of stacking and/or power (aligning the heavens, grasp of the earth dragon, walk of the sun) are balanced by only being 1 min long.

[cpito]

[Drakos]

Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:

    Doublestrike    Bonus    Main hand    Off hand
No feats    0    20%    100%        20%
TWF        0    +20%    100%        40%
ITWF        0    +20%    100%        60%
GTWF        0    +20%    100%        80%
STWF        0    +20%    100%        100%
Tempest I    0    +10%    100%        90%
Tempest II    0    +10%    100%        100% 
Tempest III    +5%*    0    105%        100%
Wind IV        +10%    0    110%        80%
Zeal        +10%    0    110%        80%
Alacrity    +10%    0    110%        80%

* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

An alternate chart had the TWF not giving a bonus to off-hand proc rate, but increasing each tier to 25% - so it would have been 25%/25%/50%/75%/100%

What about Wind I-III will they no longer provide a benefit?

[DoctorWhofan]

THis thread isn't needed.

[Visty]

What about Wind I-III will they no longer provide a benefit?

they still give dex +2/+3

[Angelus_dead]

What about Wind I-III will they no longer provide a benefit?

The chart listed a 10% bonus for Wind IV, with the implication that Wind I-III gradually build up to that number. Probably they'll be 2.5%, 5%, and 7.5%.

[Coldin]

I would really like to hear a comment from a dev about implementing a double strike ability for rogues, like in the form of the Opportunist special ability. It would be nice to know if it's something the devs would consider.

[Calebro]

maybe this wont get lost in here
but A SERIOUS QUESTION that even in the monk forums i cant get an answer

where on that chart do monks NOT in wind IV fall?
i know they wont be under 'other' since we get a natural increase in attack speed as we lvl
so where would a lvl 20 no stance monk be?

Actually, you *would* be in the "other" category. The natural attack speed of a monk being faster has no bearing on the number of off-hand attacks, nor does it affect the proc% of Double Strike.
You'll attack just as fast as you do now in any other stance, but your off-hand attacks may be slightly lower by ~20% when not in Wind Stance.
Double Strike will make up some of this difference for you, so the effects won't be nearly as noticable as some people seem to think.

That's my thought process on it anyway.

[ripperj]

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BUMP


maybe this wont get lost in here
but A SERIOUS QUESTION that even in the monk forums i cant get an answer

where on that chart do monks NOT in wind IV fall?
i know they wont be under 'other' since we get a natural increase in attack speed as we lvl
so where would a lvl 20 no stance monk be?

and about stwf, its rumored to be BAB 16, monks dont even get that high..well we do when centered, but that doesnt count for feat purposes, so does that mean we're excluded?

[Emili]

So... if I wish to keep my DPS on my fighter I should be switching her back to a GTHF build and circumvent speed of attacks by twitching... I will like a way to decompose GS back into ingredients please.... and maybe 12 free hearts?

Let me understand this... you increased the proc rates on THF beefed up THF styles which have always been played around (twitched) by player style to near-equal the number if attacks of a TWF... then take the TWF chain and intend on nerffing it down? With the expediture it takes to persue the TWF chains being deeper in character build the outcome of this is that the THF now comes ahead again.

How about this? Instead of sending back to the clients every little single Sleashing, Pure good, Holy, Flaming die roll in a separate message to be logged ... since it is all from one swing send it all in one packet (by swing) instead... I do not believe it's the hundred calc's but the hundreds of message packets going back to the clients involved...