Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Brother_Solar]

How will these proposed changes affect Ki regeneration?

Let's find out.

A level 20 monk without Haste and without Wind IV will attack approximately 96 times per minute with the main hand.

A level 20 monk with Haste (or just the 15% Enhancement portion of Wind IV) will attack approximately 115 times per minute with the main hand.


Current level 20 monk in Wind IV:
128 attack rolls per minute with main hand + 128 attack rolls per minute with off hand = 256 attack rolls per minute

Proposed (110% main hand + 80% off hand) level 20 monk in Wind IV:
1.1*115 main hand attack rolls per minute + 0.8*115 off hand attack rolls per minute = 218 attack rolls per minute

Assuming a 5% chance to miss, a 10% chance to critically hit, and the use of the Henshin Mystic necklace...

Current Ki generation in a minute:
256*(2*0.85+3*0.1) = 512

Proposed Ki generation in a minute:
218*(2*0.85+3*0.1) = 436

So, the proposed ki generation with the stated build/gear will be around 85% of what it is currently (due to the lower number of attacks).

[moorewr]

How would stwf help rangers when they already got 100% offhand proc?

That is incorrect - Tempest III rangers already have 100% off-hand procs, not all rangers. Thus an arcane archer could potentially be a far better melee than a melee-spec GTWF rogue (given an interesting mix of feats).

Just like a Tempest taking the archer capstone essentially for free and thus being a better archer than any other class, this makes no sense.

[Baahb3]

What is great about this game is no one build is a must as nd any well built char will work. This change has the potential to do this. As a twf rouge player this change will devastate his dps through loss of attacks. It was hard to make it seem worth it to play a rogue for dps as it was with poor dps pre enhancments compared to other melee classes.

It just figues anyway i finally got my rogue up and going at cap. So gut fealing about this is *&=%$#$%=&*()(*&=%$4#&=%$#%=&*(*&=%

I have seen a good combat rogue pull agro from a raging barbarian and a dual weilding fighter, do you really think this is the way it should be?

Rogues are a DPS class, I whole-heartilly agree, but they should be behind the DPS of true TWFers with STWF or Tempest III.

I think the word devistate is a strong word, with an item or two to get their double strike up to 10% (Eladrin hinted that items with attack speed boost will get changed to this) they will be just fine in the DPS department.

[IronClan]

well my feelings on this BIG TWF NERF...

is that they look at is as a way to generate more cash from the older player base...through TRs LRs and GRs

Of course you do, because you don't like being nerfed (understandable no one does) but you're willing to throw around tin foil hat rationalization to try and paint Turbine as greedy mean, user base hating bad guys... And cast FUD on the nerf to raise the level of "rabble rabble rabble" already going on in this thread. Instead of recognizing what everyone knows (even TWF min maxers who aren't lying to themselves) that TWF is overly dominant and even this nerf will still leave them ahead of THF.

[wolfy42]

I propose you change THF instead. Nerfing is a bad idea always and that is pretty much what is happening here.


I suggest increasing the damage of THF (which I think is fine already but obviously you don't) by adding an additional damage bonus from the THF tiers. There are a bunch of ways to add the damage bonus by I suggest the following.

THF gives the current bonuses AND adds 2 damage per attack while using power attack.

ITHF gives the current bonuses AND adds 4 damage per attack while using power attack.

GTHF gives the current bonuses and adds 6 damage per attack while using power attack.

All of that is before crits etc, it's a bonus to base damage.

It makes sense that having greater skill with two handed weapons would improve how much you get out of power attack.

It would boost the average DPS of THF slightly without being to insane but would not increase calculations at all.

As far as TWF leave it alone and find other ways to reduce lag (Such as making more people likely to use THF). Boost player strength do not nerf it. If the game is too easy players can always run quests on high difficulty levels with fewer players. Don't increase difficulty, don't reduce players current strength or abilities.

Doing so can ruin the game for players easily. You build a character that is slowly increasing in power (well slowly for new players at least) and then suddenly your character is changed so you will never get back to the point you were before no matter how long you play. That is not fun for anyone.

Making changes like this is bad enough for older players who know how the game works and can roll with it. For new players it can be game breaking.

Don't nerf players.

Find a way to make changes that solve problems while giving bonuses to current builds and players.

TWF causes to many calculations? Fine, make it so if the first hand lands the second automatically does as well, reducing the number of to hit rolls by 25%.

Right now you roll to hit for each primary and secondary attack.

With the change you roll to hit with your primary and if you hit both your primary and offhand attack lands. If you miss the offhand attack rolls to hit as as well.

That would reduce lag drastically and increase TWF damage in the process (although honestly not by much at higher levels since most players hit most of the time anyway.

There are many ways to fix the lag problem without thrashing TWF combat.

There are many POSITIVE ways to fix the TWF/THF balance issues as well.

Don't make negative changes.

[Chai]

How would stwf help rangers when they already got 100% offhand proc?

And it isnt infite its average 5% so total rangers loose ALOT compared to now

They wont have to be tempest to out dps other classes for free now. You can go AA, pick up the STWF feat (or get it free) and still out alot of other TWF toons dps due to offhand procs. Then you have a many shot that hoses down everything in the room, and powerful enough melee to clean up the scraps.

[uhgungawa]

Eladrin has already stated they that they feel that TWF is overly dominant and needs to be nerfed... would people stop acting like they're trying to pull the wool over their eyes?

The problem with "democracy" and player feedback is that the average person only cares about his own self interest and will rabidly fight anything that threatens it.

Turbine might have to make some hard decisions here... there are obviously an overwhelming number of players here who are against this, for turbine it's a made your bed now lay in it problem... to fix the large disparity between S&B and TWF/THF they need to knock both of them down a little (very little in the case of THF) to make any buffs to S&B not be so drastic... TWF is still more uber than THF with this nerf (as it should be due to the possible need for an extra feat for OTWF) unless you're one of the teeny tinny few who have an Epic Sword of Shadows... In other words unless you're among a handfull of players. This nerf does not make TWF inferior to THF; and the game can not be balanced for a handful of extreme outlier players who are a minority even among the minority who grind epic content...

The game must be balanced for the majority... and the majority will never even SEE an Epic SoS in action let alone grind for one... If ESoS is such a problem then they'll need to put in something equally as epic (and rare) for dual wielders and make it exclusive, Epic TWF Khopesh in main hand and GS in the other...

For the record I hate the double strike idea, it's a klunker. But i recognize that it's a bone thrown in to try and lessen the pain of a needed adjustment to the TWF style... And also slow combat down a little. The actual TWF nerf is really not that bad... 10-15% is a small thing... except to those who are most self centered, most "min maxed" and play the game thinking they and everyone that dares join their party, MUST be optimal... or they are the scum of the earth "gimps" "short bus" players, etc....

Sadly the nerf that DDO most needs, is a nerf of Munchkins...

Some people seem to be overly dramatic LOL. You blow-up at a post poking a bit of fun at all this nerfing talk?

And for the record S&B should be about defense not offence. So that would be getting AC back in line, and not trying to bring it up to snuf with TWF and THF.

So the message of the day would be Lighten up buttercup

[Chai]

There are many POSITIVE ways to fix the TWF/THF balance issues as well.

Don't make negative changes.

But this doesnt "fix the lag".

[Baahb3]

I propose you change THF instead. Nerfing is a bad idea always and that is pretty much what is happening here.


I suggest increasing the damage of THF (which I think is fine already but obviously you don't) by adding an additional damage bonus from the THF tiers. There are a bunch of ways to add the damage bonus by I suggest the following.

THF gives the current bonuses AND adds 2 damage per attack while using power attack.

ITHF gives the current bonuses AND adds 4 damage per attack while using power attack.

GTHF gives the current bonuses and adds 6 damage per attack while using power attack.

All of that is before crits etc, it's a bonus to base damage.

It makes sense that having greater skill with two handed weapons would improve how much you get out of power attack.

It would boost the average DPS of THF slightly without being to insane but would not increase calculations at all.

As far as TWF leave it alone and find other ways to reduce lag (Such as making more people likely to use THF). Boost player strength do not nerf it. If the game is too easy players can always run quests on high difficulty levels with fewer players. Don't increase difficulty, don't reduce players current strength or abilities.

Doing so can ruin the game for players easily. You build a character that is slowly increasing in power (well slowly for new players at least) and then suddenly your character is changed so you will never get back to the point you were before no matter how long you play. That is not fun for anyone.

Making changes like this is bad enough for older players who know how the game works and can roll with it. For new players it can be game breaking.

Don't nerf players.

Find a way to make changes that solve problems while giving bonuses to current builds and players.

TWF causes to many calculations? Fine, make it so if the first hand lands the second automatically does as well, reducing the number of to hit rolls by 25%.

Right now you roll to hit for each primary and secondary attack.

With the change you roll to hit with your primary and if you hit both your primary and offhand attack lands. If you miss the offhand attack rolls to hit as as well.

That would reduce lag drastically and increase TWF damage in the process (although honestly not by much at higher levels since most players hit most of the time anyway.

There are many ways to fix the lag problem without thrashing TWF combat.

There are many POSITIVE ways to fix the TWF/THF balance issues as well.

Don't make negative changes.

/not signed

The power creep in this game is getting out of hand. Every time they make a mistake and release something that is over the top (i.e. ESoS) everyone says, just increase the other stuff to match, this needs to stop.

Sometimes you need to take a step back to make progress going forward.

[k1ngp1n]

My sole concern is this double strike mechanism. It completely skewers any future 'double strike' rates of increase to favor THF massively. Not only is this a massive step away from DnD, but it creates a new system for power creep, this time in the hands of the THFers. Before the power creep was in crit rates and in static bonuses (which favored TWF). So we're just trading one for the other.

If Turbine were to absolutely freeze damage mods where they're at, then this mechanism will be fine. If not, well, we're screwed.

[Aashrym]

Right, all those classes now have to take 4 levels of a 1/1 BAB class just to gain the feat, and sacrifice alot in doing so.

Rogues are circumstantially supposed to be near the top in DPS, that circumstance of course being when sneak attack is applicable. With this, it will not be the case. Right now my rogue can compete. Instinctively I doubt he will be able to if this goes live and they dont build something into the pure rogue class that bumps the offhand proc chance. This makes sense because rogues are the_dex_kings in most cases, and only sharing that throne with dex rangers.

If they dont put something in for pure rogues, I see alot more multiclassing in the future where rogue levels will be taken minimally to gain their skills as class skills. This is already an issue, but will become alot more extreme. And all this, after they put capstones in to encourage pure class builds.

Perhaps that can be entered into the enhancement lines to increase the proc rate or something.

I don't agree that rogues should have access to the feat just because it's there and fighters/rangers can get it, but I do agree rogues need some love somewhere.

[Boromirs]

Probably the most important question that hasnt been asked thus far,

Eladrin-

If you are going to implement this, WHEN is this all happening? AND will you announce it to everyone when it does?

[nessguy]

Why do i feel like EVERYTHING i invest to gets NERFED????

so not only is my 14barb/6ranger SUPREMELY FUBARD by my Crit Rage enhancements locking most feats and enhancements forever. but now i will be also getting nerfed in the Alacrity bonus that TEMPEST RANGERS SHOULD GET and also by reducing the number of offhand attacks i get..

Firewall
Wounding puncturing weapons
Critical Rage I, II
Concordant Opposition's
and now TWF

Seems like another clear case of TURBINE making mistakes, and then taking away from us to fix he problem that they introduced.

Instead, i propose TURBINE upgrade the servers and equipment they use to push our DDO experience to a higher level.

But they would just rather put money for upgrades in their pockets!
and continue to shaft us any way they can by making our gaming time invested into future NERFS!

its like job security for them. at least until the majority of us get fed up and quit flat out.

[Baahb3]

My sole concern is this double strike mechanism. It completely skewers any future 'double strike' rates of increase to favor THF massively. Not only is this a massive step away from DnD, but it creates a new system for power creep, this time in the hands of the THFers. Before the power creep was in crit rates and in static bonuses (which favored TWF). So we're just trading one for the other.

If Turbine were to absolutely freeze damage mods where they're at, then this mechanism will be fine. If not, well, we're screwed.

Possibly, they could institute regulations to help this out though, like double strike percentages are halved for THF, or double strike percentages are capped at a lower percent for THFers.

There are several things that could be put into place to help balance and regulate the double strike mechanic.

[IronClan]

Why would you choose to believe something that's not true.

Eladrin has specifically stated that the TWF nerf is because he considers TWF to have an "extreme dominance over two handed fighting".




The lag fix was the piggybacking of the offhand attack to the main hand attack.

Had they tried to sell the TWF nerf as fair because now there is no collision check for the offhand, they would have been called outright liars. Because anyone who plays the game can see that the offhand collision check is superfluous and unnecessary. How often have the monsters moved away fast enough that you didn't get in the offhand attack?
Especially Raid Bosses who stand there and attack.

I believe they did consider selling it as part of the "fix" but thought better of it. Hence the "I won't hide the fact...." line.
Because until that point in the post there was no mention that the two were really unrelated.

As far as Eladrin's later comment that "sometimes you have an opportunity to attack with the offhand and sometimes you don't" as an attempt to justify the "missing" attack when you are clearly in range but the % dice roll says the second hand doesn't have a chance to attack, all I can say is that is attempt to say that it's fair because now that there is no offhand collision check that we will hit the monsters more often, which I mentioned above.

The attack roll determines if you have a chance or not. It's always been understood by long time D&D players of all types that "hitting" is not always an actual hit. Sometimes it is just that, opening up an opportunity for a true strike.

Just as hit points are not a full picture of the health of the character but also his ability to "survive" combat. That's why "resting" recovers some hit points, because he's getting his wind back, regaining his stamina, etc.

So the to-hit roll is what determines if you have an "opportunity to hit" just as much as an actual hit. And the damage done determines if it's a full hit, a scratch, or just enough to "open" the monster for another attack.

This, people who never Played P&P D&D need to read this and even some who did play but didn't pay attention to the justifications for various rules and abstractions...

[moorewr]

Perhaps that can be entered into the enhancement lines to increase the proc rate or something.

I don't agree that rogues should have access to the feat just because it's there and fighters/rangers can get it, but I do agree rogues need some love somewhere.

This is why they shouldn't invent things that entirely do not exist in the source game. if we're going to have imbalances, let them be inherited imbalances.

In the source game, a rogue can qualify for Tempest as their prestige class almost as easily as a ranger or fighter can. In the source game, there's no business with alacrity (just BAB as an advantage for the number of strikes). In the source game there's no STWF at all.

[rezo]

So........ over all you would say that it's bring the TWF more balance in the dpsing??? I kind of like it. In someway it's better then trying to speed up s&b and THF to make them faster dpsing, lol.

[Baahb3]

Why do i feel like EVERYTHING i invest to gets NERFED????

so not only is my 14barb/6ranger SUPREMELY FUBARD by my Crit Rage enhancements locking most feats and enhancements forever. but now i will be also getting nerfed in the Alacrity bonus that TEMPEST RANGERS SHOULD GET and also by reducing the number of offhand attacks i get..

Firewall
Wounding puncturing weapons
Critical Rage I, II
Concordant Opposition's
and now TWF

Seems like another clear case of TURBINE making mistakes, and then taking away from us to fix he problem that they introduced.

Instead, i propose TURBINE upgrade the servers and equipment they use to push our DDO experience to a higher level.

But they would just rather put money for upgrades in their pockets!
and continue to shaft us any way they can by making our gaming time invested into future NERFS!

Wow, I don't want to make you even more angry but mistakes happen man, that is just life.

Some things just cannot be solved by 'upgrade servers and equipment'. These things need to be changed through code and other processing behaviors.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Firewall
Wounding puncturing weapons
Critical Rage I, II
Concordant Opposition's
and now TWF

Seems like another clear case of TURBINE making mistakes, and then taking away from us to fix he problem that they introduced.

It's natural for players to try and identify the weaknesses in game balance and try to exploit them as much as possible.

It's also natural for the devs to try and fix these faults, and for players to get upset as a result.

MMOs are about change and adapting to change. If you want a static game, then go play Dragon Age.

Garth

[Boromirs]

As a new player to DDO/very old (Ultima Online) MMO player. This is the first time I have ever seen such a expansive change to a combat system before in the middle of a game's life cycle. This is pretty nuts, and although I don't have much time invested in DDO as of yet am VERY VERY WORRIED that a SUDDEN CHANGE may occur ON ANY BUILD I create in the future.