Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Therilith]

ive invested all my time learning and twinking out for twf play style (good rapiers cost a frikkin fortune). my best efforts just so i can contribute to the success of the group. once i become useless to them, the game becomes useless to me.

Good thing you won't "become useless to them" then.

[Isolani]

Who knew the fix to dps lag could be so simple? Just remove dps. Duh.

This isn't something I would cancel over, but it does hurt a lot of my characters (TWF FvS, TWF wiz/kensai, etc). Some of my favorite characters are twf casters, they aren't exactly melee dps powerhouses to begin with and this won't help at all.

I spent real money at the ddo store on +2 dex tomes for a lot of characters so they could get GTWF...turns out I should have just used a greataxe all along instead of wasting money at the ddo store.

Hmm, I find myself becoming enraged the more I think about that.

[Aashrym]

You still have not acknowledged the point that matters:
In what way will it improve the game to further reduce the effectiveness of TWF Clerics and Favored Souls?

Do you think the current TWF potential of divine casters is overpowered compared to other kinds of characters?

Melee classes should be much better at melee than TWF and FvS. That really is like saying fighters should be more effective casters compared to clerics and fvs.

I'm not sure why you think they should be entitled to the feat just because a fighter are ranger would have access. Fighters fight. That pretty much is what they do. They might THF or TWF, but they have those feats and those options because that is what the class is capable of.

Clerics and FvS are primarily casters. They really can be built to melee well but if we push them closer and closer to melee those top tier feats that fighters (rangers too, simply because they were built with TWF in mind) have access too it's more like a proxy nerf (your term) to fighters as we give what they can have to other classes with nothing in return.

There are also PnP roots to this game and clerics didn't have access to all feat chains there either. That might be a weaker point in the discussion, but it is valid too.

When I read your comments I see, "I want to have the feat because it exists in my chain so I should have it because it exists and other people can get it."

We all have to make choices when we build characters. Fighters still have to meet requirements to get those feats too. If there is a DEX requirement and a BAB requirement this feat will exist and it will be hard for everyone to qualify for, except rangers if they get it free. And only classes capable of doing that will get it. That makes it a top tier feat.

It might not be worth putting in. But not putting it in because not everyone will have easy access to it doesn't make a lot of sense looking at what those classes already have in lieu of that feat.

Sure a fighter can get it, but he really won't have the casting ability of either clerics or favored souls. Is the one feat really worth what that fighter doesn't have when he makes his build choices to grab that one bit more chance at an offhand attack?

Sorry for the wall. I think you post a lot of good comments and ideas, and I have given rep to you several times. Clerics and FvS's (and several other classes) thinking they need to add that one more feat just because it's there in order to be viable does seem silly to me.

[Therilith]

This is a PVE game, you do 2x as much damage as I do, that's cool

All other things equal it is, in fact, not cool that one style of combat outclasses another to such an embarrassing degree.

Best to play it safe Eladrin, do the physics change first, and only go further if tests can truly PROVE that the lag gets reduced a considerable amount by altering the combat rules further

The TWF nerf isn't about reducing lag, it's about nerfing TWF. Don't feel bad though, I only know that because I'm part of a secretive and elite group of people who actually read the OP.

[Chai]

That is incorrect. It can take several seconds longer for some enemies.

Non epic trash mobs with full con and crits only on weapon threat take that long to kill. Non epic trash mobs in auto crit with 0 con, which is what WoP workes on, take barely a second to drop once they are in auto crit mode. The difference had minimal impact to the game. Theres a chance this one will too. I see parallels here in the amount of open forum neg feedback.

So my question still stands. Are you willing to eat those words if all this gloom and doom forshadowing is incorrect?

[Tarnoc]

Good thing you won't "become useless to them" then.

how do you know this as you dont have any meellee toons

[SteeleTrueheart]

Again I hope that the lesser reincarnations are given 1 per character or at least on sale for something like 90% off for a week.

A question a guildy asked me today and I wasn't sure. If your main hand attack misses, does that mean you have no chance to proc a 2nd hand attack from that swing? Or are these independent of each other?

[IronClan]

That's right, you heard it here first. The finalized TWF is here now for your viewing, enjoy.

Eladrin has already stated they that they feel that TWF is overly dominant and needs to be nerfed... would people stop acting like they're trying to pull the wool over their eyes?

The problem with "democracy" and player feedback is that the average person only cares about his own self interest and will rabidly fight anything that threatens it.

Turbine might have to make some hard decisions here... there are obviously an overwhelming number of players here who are against this, for turbine it's a made your bed now lay in it problem... to fix the large disparity between S&B and TWF/THF they need to knock both of them down a little (very little in the case of THF) to make any buffs to S&B not be so drastic... TWF is still more uber than THF with this nerf (as it should be due to the possible need for an extra feat for OTWF) unless you're one of the teeny tinny few who have an Epic Sword of Shadows... In other words unless you're among a handfull of players. This nerf does not make TWF inferior to THF; and the game can not be balanced for a handful of extreme outlier players who are a minority even among the minority who grind epic content...

The game must be balanced for the majority... and the majority will never even SEE an Epic SoS in action let alone grind for one... If ESoS is such a problem then they'll need to put in something equally as epic (and rare) for dual wielders and make it exclusive, Epic TWF Khopesh in main hand and GS in the other...

For the record I hate the double strike idea, it's a klunker. But i recognize that it's a bone thrown in to try and lessen the pain of a needed adjustment to the TWF style... And also slow combat down a little. The actual TWF nerf is really not that bad... 10-15% is a small thing... except to those who are most self centered, most "min maxed" and play the game thinking they and everyone that dares join their party, MUST be optimal... or they are the scum of the earth "gimps" "short bus" players, etc....

Sadly the nerf that DDO most needs, is a nerf of Munchkins...

[moorewr]

What I object to anything that stovepipes builds in ways not intended by PnP.

It is all very well to give a % boost to Tempest, as it does now, but here we are talking about an insurmountable difference between an STWF Tempest III and a GTWF rogue. The rogue will simply have no chance to compete with th off-hand and double-strike chances built into the new system. That's far inferior to the situation with alacrity now.

That's far more unbalanced than the classes are in PnP, and it is bad for the game because it removes choices from us players in building a character.

[Chai]

Melee classes should be much better at melee than TWF and FvS. That really is like saying fighters should be more effective casters compared to clerics and fvs.

I'm not sure why you think they should be entitled to the feat just because a fighter are ranger would have access. Fighters fight. That pretty much is what they do. They might THF or TWF, but they have those feats and those options because that is what the class is capable of.

Clerics and FvS are primarily casters. They really can be built to melee well but if we push them closer and closer to melee those top tier feats that fighters (rangers too, simply because they were built with TWF in mind) have access too it's more like a proxy nerf (your term) to fighters as we give what they can have to other classes with nothing in return.

There are also PnP roots to this game and clerics didn't have access to all feat chains there either. That might be a weaker point in the discussion, but it is valid too.

When I read your comments I see, "I want to have the feat because it exists in my chain so I should have it because it exists and other people can get it."

We all have to make choices when we build characters. Fighters still have to meet requirements to get those feats too. If there is a DEX requirement and a BAB requirement this feat will exist and it will be hard for everyone to qualify for, except rangers if they get it free. And only classes capable of doing that will get it. That makes it a top tier feat.

It might not be worth putting in. But not putting it in because not everyone will have easy access to it doesn't make a lot of sense looking at what those classes already have in lieu of that feat.

Sure a fighter can get it, but he really won't have the casting ability of either clerics or favored souls. Is the one feat really worth what that fighter doesn't have when he makes his build choices to grab that one bit more chance at an offhand attack?

Sorry for the wall. I think you post a lot of good comments and ideas, and I have given rep to you several times. Clerics and FvS's (and several other classes) thinking they need to add that one more feat just because it's there in order to be viable does seem silly to me.

I agree with most of what you say here however...

What about dex builds?

Its more realistic that a high dex build will have STWF than min maxed str builds who take the min dex requirement just to fit the feat in. My 40 dex rogue wont have access to this due to the BAB 16 requirement but a 19 dex fighter will have access to it. Unrealistic at best. I believe they will have to change to requirements to please people, and if they do, whats to stop all the clerics, bards, and FvS from jumping on that bandwagon too?

I believe what you say about fighters, and Id toss barbarians in there too. If you bring everyone elses melee too close to theirs, it takes away from fighters and barbarians. If I can build a FvS that can melee 90% as well as a barbarian or fighter, I will take that any day of the week.

[Towrn]

Monk Air stances now grant a +5%/+10%/+15%/+20% insight bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks instead of an insight bonus to attack speed. (Enhancement bonus to attack speed remains.)
remain unchanged.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:

	Doublestrike	Bonus	Main hand	Off hand
No feats	0	20%	100%		20%
TWF		0	+20%	100%		40%
ITWF		0	+20%	100%		60%
GTWF		0	+20%	100%		80%
STWF		0	+20%	100%		100%
Tempest I	0	+10%	100%		90%
Tempest II	0	+10%	100%		100% 
Tempest III	+5%*	0	105%		100%
Wind IV		+10%	0	110%		80%
Zeal		+10%	0	110%		80%
Alacrity	+10%	0	110%		80%

* Only when wielding two weapons.

Eladrin, in your first posting of numbers you didn't have double strike.

Now that you do I have a question pertaining to monks. (Please forgive me if it's been asked, I don't have the time to read all 1400 posts.)

In the first sentence I quoted it says that monks wind stance will get 5%/10%/15%/20% to off hand proc rate.

Now you have changed it to double strike %. But wind 4 says it would give a 10% chance for double strike proc. Does that mean that each level of wind stance will give a 2.5% chance, or is wind 4 the ONLY level of that stance that will give double strike proc %?

Also, has there been any thought to Ki generation? With monks taking a big hit to the amount of times they will hit with their off hand they will not be generating as much ki, perhaps on double strikes they should get a percentage of extra ki than a normal hit? Ideas on this?

[Tapsimanxer]

does double strike just copy the damage of the main hand? so if i smite for 400 on the main hand, doublestrike just copies the number? will my smite still proc on the offhand? can there be 3 smites for one turn undead? if it's like this, maybe i can work with the change.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

This is a TWF CHANGE not a nerf. (Unless you're a rogue. Kinda hosed there.)

No, even Eladrin says its a nerf. This change was deliberately designed to reduce DPS for ALL TWF. Yes, rogues are among the worst hit, but everyone is hit, that's the point.

[Philam]

Are you, ie devs, asking for the player base opinion on this so called "fix" to the lag issue OR have you already made up your minds and this is just a "courtesy" warning?

Ph

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

A question a guildy asked me today and I wasn't sure. If your main hand attack misses, does that mean you have no chance to proc a 2nd hand attack from that swing? Or are these independent of each other?

assuming the main hand swing had a physics hit with a mob in front of you (and didn't miss because they were 3 feet away), then you get a combat roll against the mob with your main hand, then a % chance (e.g. 80% for monk... see the table in the OP) of a combat roll against the mob with your off hand weapon. Then you get another % chance of your main hand having another second attack (e.g. 10% for fighter/20 capstone). All three of these potential rolls are independent of each other and are done using the attack bonus of the individual weapon you're attacking.

The answer to your question is even if you roll a combat miss (e.g. a 1) on your main hand you still get a chance to hit on your 'off hand attack' and also on your potential double strike (with main hand weapon)

Garth

[Chai]

What I object to anything that stovepipes builds in ways not intended by PnP.

It is all very well to give a % boost to Tempest, as it does now, but here we are talking about an insurmountable difference between an STWF Tempest III and a GTWF rogue. The rogue will simply have no chance to compete with th off-hand and double-strike chances built into the new system. That's far inferior to the situation with alacrity now.

That's far more unbalanced than the classes are in PnP, and it is bad for the game because it removes choices from us players in building a character.

Yeap, you think you see alot of multiclass rogues now? the most rogue levels that will be taken will be 2 unless something is built into the rogue class that makes it compete.

I am STILL reserving actuall numerical judgement until I see it tested.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

does double strike just copy the damage of the main hand? so if i smite for 400 on the main hand, doublestrike just copies the number? will my smite still proc on the offhand? can there be 3 smites for one turn undead? if it's like this, maybe i can work with the change.

Each strike gets an independent attack roll and chance to proc effects on a successful combat hit.

It's therefore possible for a paladin with zeal to smite for 400 three times in one attack (once on the mainhand, once on the off hand, and once through double strike due to Zeal 10% double strike rate)

Garth

[Tarnoc]

Eladrin has already stated they that they feel that TWF is overly dominant and needs to be nerfed... would people stop acting like they're trying to pull the wool over their eyes?

The problem with "democracy" and player feedback is that the average person only cares about his own self interest and will rabidly fight anything that threatens it.

Turbine might have to make some hard decisions here... there are obviously an overwhelming number of players here who are against this, for turbine it's a made your bed now lay in it problem... to fix the larg disparity between S&B and TWF/THF they need to knock both of them down a little to make any buffs to S&B not be so drastic... TWF is more uber than THF unless you're one of the enny teeny tinny few who have an Epic Sword of Shadows... In other words unless you're handfull of players. This nerf does not make TWF inferior to THF (unless you're among the handfull) and the game can not be balanced for a handfull of extreme outlier players who are a minority evenj among the minority who grind epic content...

The game must be balanced for the majority... and the majority will never even SEE an Epic SoS in action let alone grind for one... If ESoS is such a problem then they;ll need to put in something equally as epic (and rare) for dual wielders and make it exclusive Epic TWF Khopesh in main hand and GS in the other...

For the record I hate the double strike idea but i recognize that it's a bone thrown in to try and lessen the pain of a needed adjustment to the TWF style... And also slow combat down a little. The actual TWF nerf is really not that bad... 10-15% is a small thing... except to those who are most self centered, most "min maxed" and play the game thinking they and everyone that dares join their party, MUST be optimal... or they are the scum of the earth "gimps" "short bus" players, etc....

Sadly the nerf that DDO most needs, is a nerf of Munchkins...

have you had a lvl 20 toon?and i dotn know wat content you play but almost all barbs i know and alot of uber dps wf fvs i know have epic SOS....funny how you can make blanket statements yet your highest toon is lvl 6.......

[IronClan]

As for dial up no clue what your talking about...can take this to another thread though as it has nothing to do with the issue at hand

Tarnoc appearently has some goofy notion about other players connection speeds causing lag for him...

[sephiroth1084]

I'd bet that greensteel weapons would be changing significantly in a future update if we revert these changes.

As unpopular a topic as it may be for some people, greensteel weapons should probably get looked at for an adjustment irrespective of what happens with this lag fix. And obviously, we would need deconstruction to go along with whatever adjustments are made.