Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Brother_Solar]

Edit:
Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:

	Doublestrike	Bonus	Main hand	Off hand
No feats	0	20%	100%		20%
TWF		0	+20%	100%		40%
ITWF		0	+20%	100%		60%
GTWF		0	+20%	100%		80%
STWF		0	+20%	100%		100%
Tempest I	0	+10%	100%		90%
Tempest II	0	+10%	100%		100% 
Tempest III	+5%*	0	105%		100%
Wind IV		+10%	0	110%		80%
Zeal		+10%	0	110%		80%
Alacrity	+10%	0	110%		80%

* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

For monks, I like this. Lots. This will actually REDUCE the supremacy of Wind stance over all of the other monk stances (assuming that the other stances are Hasted). Without Haste, Wind will still keep its major lead, and with Haste, other stances will be within 5% of Wind DPS.

I can't comment on any of the other classes though, I'm just a monk junky.

[SisAmethyst]

Clerics and Favored Souls are already have melee damage far behind the primary melee classes. Is there any justification to give them a further reduction compared to Fighters, Barbarians, and Rangers?

/ironie on

Yeah, reducing Clerics and FvS to just plain Healbots, put them in the corner where they do belong!!!

Player A: Mhhh, where did all the Clerics and FvS go?
Player B: Well its too awesome to play those classes.
Player A: Why, but I need someone to heal me?!
Player B: They only can Heal and are unable to solo and are sooo boring to play...
Player A: They should be able to solo perfectly as they can heal themself!
Player B: ... the last one who tryed that fought several minutes the same Mob with his low damage output but was finally slain as his SP ran out from self healing.

/ironie off

[sly_1]

So long as 2wf is still a viable and effective character build than imo it doesn't matter if it receives a slight nerf.

Overall 2wf should be at least slightly better than 2hf simply because you need to sacrifice a lot for 2wf:

- most 2wf builds you need to start with 15 dex and buy a tome or start with 16+ dex: that is a large sacrifice compared to 2hf that can dump dex to pump other stats.
- you need to craft 2 gs weapons, or farm/buy in ah etc 2 weapons, meaning double the effort compared to 2hf.

So yeah, given the sacrifices, 2wf should have a slight edge. Doesn't have to dominate, just should be a bit better than 2hf against a single foe is all.

[Sirslapemsack]

eladrin already stated that windstance would keep its attack speed bonus. it would just also add to the TWF abilities. I believe these charts are just proc % not attack speed.

[Tarnoc]

My twf wf kensai with khopeshs does it all the time

well im all for nerfing your dial up connection anyhow...but once again im sure the only time you steal agro is because your critting and the THf is not or thus chained or outta buffs that you got in the other side of the room......and he didnt get even haste for fear of taking off his boots......also a factor dont wf get a power attack enhancement line so if your kensia is wf and the barb isa dwarf i can see an issue thier....

NERF WF

[akiraproject24]

well im all for nerfing your dial up connection anyhow...but once again im sure the only time you steal agro is because your critting and the THf is not or thus chained or outta buffs that you got in the other side of the room......and he didnt get even haste for fear of taking off his boots......also a factor dont wf get a power attack enhancement line so if your kensia is wf and the barb isa dwarf i can see an issue thier....

NERF WF

First of all against horroth I know how to not take aggro so I dont, on other boss mobs critting is DPS and a lv 20 kensai fighter crits 16-20 with khopeshes so yeah Im crittin like a champ and therefore out DPS'n the barb and taking his aggro. As for dial up no clue what your talking about...can take this to another thread though as it has nothing to do with the issue at hand

[Therilith]

To all the people saying that this change sucks because you won't be able to play your TWFers: FEAR NOT!

Using my mighty brain I have come up with a solution to your problem!

"Keep playing your TWFers."


That is all.

[Redcoil]

Only hard part I see is fighters get less of an investment per level. As the basic tempest and Zeal need less of an investment - 14 zeal, 6 ranger vs 20 for a fighter, they just seem a little bit shorted.

Also by reducing number of dicerolls and using double-procs instead, it's reducing chances of vorps. However it increases usage of monk attacks such as touch of 500 points of pain, as properly timed it seems that that'll be an instant 1000 damage of this seems to work. So the tanks that focus purely on DPS seem to actually be shorted a bit while those with special attacks get a bigger bonus.

[Rav'n]

To all the people saying that this change sucks because you won't be able to play your TWFers: FEAR NOT!

Using my mighty brain I have come up with a solution to your problem!

"Keep playing your TWFers."


That is all.

YUP! I agree, play the game, don't worry about whether you go blind with 1 hand or 2!

[IronClan]

Combat was temporarily reduce to 10% of what it is now in patch 1 of DDO:EU. It resulted in a major uproar on the forums and an hotfix was made less than a week later, increasing the speed back by 10% (and nerfing Haste from 25% to 15%). So, while it is technically feasible, it's a really bad idea.

It does not sound that way on paper but slowing down the attack speed, even by a mere 10%, takes a lot of the fun of the game.

Yeah seems like something the user base should just suck up and deal with, 10%... hard to even tell

maybe drop it by 2% every couple weeks... no one will know they will get used to it before they think to check... and then when someone posts a before after on youtube everyone will be like "hey when did they do that".

It obviously would give them more hardware overhead or they wouldn't have tried it back then

Seems like a much easier sacrifice than nerfing the majority of melee's and kludging on this distinctly arcadey non D&D feeling Double strike thing

[redgod]

problem solved people you can all settle down now


just add all 2wf dps togeather and use a 2hf animation i mean twf doesent mean in each hand you could squeeze them togeather and swing like an idiot

walaa no more off hand attacks at all

lag solved well all look stupid and itll be pointless but hay its a lot less complicated

[Arctigis]

Frankly if they were smart they would have fixed the physics checks...and not attempted to merge it with a nerf.

If they had to nerf for balance, they could have done that later, and the mechanic would already be in place. As it is people are just confused and coming up with suggestions that don't help at all becuase they don't understand there are two seperate things happenning.

The cynical amongst us might conflate this with a longstanding political technique of piggybacking bad news onto
good. "Good news everyone, we're fixing DPS lag! <mumble>By nerf'ing twf</mumble>"

[Aashrym]

Clerics and Favored Souls are already have melee damage far behind the primary melee classes. Is there any justification to give them a further reduction compared to Fighters, Barbarians, and Rangers?

Yes, you said it in your statement. Primary melee classes. Look how far behind fighters, barbarians, and rangers are behind clerics and favored souls in their casting ability. Do you think changes should be made to make barbarians better healers?

That's the reason I disagreed with you earlier on that point. I do understand what you are saying, but I don't agree clerics and favored souls need access to this one feat for a bit more melee ability just because fighters and rangers will have easy access.

Fighters don't exactly have easy access to the heal spell .

[Visty]

Fighters don't exactly have easy access to the heal spell .

it just needs 9 levels of halfing and 3 feats (which fighters have enough)

[cdemeritt]

I've seen a lot of comments about Hardware upgrades needed, before changing the mechanics... Well, as much as I'd like to say this was indeed true, I really doubt it. While many companies do sacrifice quaility for profit, I think spending a little more, and making the problem go away would be much easier than dealing with us. The root of the problem actually seems to be elsewhere...

It has been many years since I coded anything, but it seems that the original programmers back 5 or more years ago chose a framework that limited their growth potential... Now several years later, and many added systems shoehorned in, we are past the maxout point of what the coding not the hardware can handle. Some have commented on the way we receive client feedback, as we get it a little at a time, and this slows many things down. However, many have said the more feedback they turn off (the floaty numbers, the effects, stencil shadowing in the Sub-T, etc, etc) the less lag they get. I can't tell you how many times I have heard people complaining about lag in the Sub-T, and their immeadiate reduction in said lag by turning that stencil shadowing off... Granted this isn't DPS lag, but, maybe a better encoding of how we get that feedback will go a long ways in correcting the issue...

Many posts ago, someone made a comment about "if the servers can't handle 250 calculations a second, do you really think are they going to handle 200 all that much better"... paraphrased, but basically what he ment, and I sort of agree... hard to think this change will do all that much for lag.

[Angelus_dead]

What about replacing mob clusters so there aren't as many per engagement as there currently is? I am sure that there would be less data load if you only were swinging against 2 or 3 monsters at once rather than 10 to 15.

That's the opposite of the real situation. The problem under consideration occurs in battles against only one enemy.

[Angelus_dead]

That's the reason I disagreed with you earlier on that point. I do understand what you are saying, but I don't agree clerics and favored souls need access to this one feat for a bit more melee ability just because fighters and rangers will have easy access.

You still have not acknowledged the point that matters:
In what way will it improve the game to further reduce the effectiveness of TWF Clerics and Favored Souls?

Do you think the current TWF potential of divine casters is overpowered compared to other kinds of characters?

[uhgungawa]

it just needs 9 levels of halfing and 3 feats (which fighters have enough)

OK, I'm game. But what race do I take for the other 11 levels

[arminius]

OK, I'm game. But what race do I take for the other 11 levels

LOL. Try wholeling!

[Tapsimanxer]

YUP! I agree, play the game, don't worry about whether you go blind with 1 hand or 2!

ive invested all my time learning and twinking out for twf play style (good rapiers cost a frikkin fortune). my best efforts just so i can contribute to the success of the group. once i become useless to them, the game becomes useless to me.