Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Rexmundis]

-TURBINE,

Dudes, just DON'T do this. You guys will completely NUKE my characters. Theres got to be another way to kill the lag on those few raids don't burn the house down just to get rid of lag for a few epic tier runs.

PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS!

[Elfvyra]

A question I'd like to see answered is: Will these changes also be applied to the AI?

[Smexxy]

oh wait I got one...


successfully Bluffing an opponent could add a 5% DS bonus... and Improved Feint could make that +10% for 6 sec


that would be a benefit for Rogues and other Bluff masters (bardsI guess) and actually make Bluff useful for a change

What about a granted feat given every 4 rogue levels that gives 2-3% of a chance at a DS, this way at level 20 a pure rogue would have 110-115% main hand and 80% off hand if they haven't taken STWF. With that addition, Rogues would be at 95-97.5% of their previous damage output.

[Razcar]

Eladrin, couldn't you just remove the off-hand physics checks and call it a day, as well? If these make up the larger portion of the load......

Yes! If you are in range for your main hand attack, you will of course be in range for you off-hand attack.

Of course, that wouldn't nerf TWF which seems to be part of his goal.

[moorewr]

Yes! If you are in range for your main hand attack, you will of course be in range for you off-hand attack.

Of course, that wouldn't nerf TWF which seems to be part of his goal.

Well, for my part, I say this is the perfect time to introduce reach weapons...

[Aspenor]

Yes! If you are in range for your main hand attack, you will of course be in range for you off-hand attack.

Of course, that wouldn't nerf TWF which seems to be part of his goal.

I choose to hope his reasons for doing this are genuinely to fix DPS lag.

This is definitely a global nerf for TWF, but it's a kick in the teeth directly to rogues, twf melee FVS, TWF bards, etc.

[Aesop]

What about a granted feat given every 4 rogue levels that gives 2-3% of a chance at a DS, this way at level 20 a pure rogue would have 110-115% main hand and 80% off hand if they haven't taken STWF. With that addition, Rogues would be at 95-97.5% of their previous damage output.

I was just going to suggest a Rogue Bonus Feat to make up a little of the difference maybe add 10% or so.

really this suggestion is just trying to get Bluff to have a use besides making rogues who don't know better worse at dealing damage



Aesop

[moorewr]

I was just going to suggest a Rogue Bonus Feat to make up a little of the difference maybe add 10% or so.

really this suggestion is just trying to get Bluff to have a use besides making rogues who don't know better worse at dealing damage



Aesop

I quite like A_D's suggestion which, roughly speaking, was a bonus to to the off-hand proc based on your Dex.

Sigh. We've wandered far from d20 here...

[noinfo]

STWF is nice in theory but horrid in feat starved character builds.

Here is a thought regarding this:

Drop STWF

Currently 20% is the starting point for no 2wf make it 10% + current dex. This reflects the higher dex toons ability to weild 2 weapons effectively. Rogues for the most part have a higher dex and will benefit, Pallies will probably still have to equip dex items for 17+6 -10 or +13 bonus.

Expanding on this:

A good dex rogue with 34 dex with full gtwf would have +24% allow the 4% chance to proc a double strike with off hand. It would be a nice way to boost dex based toons dps a little.


And maybe get rid of grazing hits? :-p

[Rexmundis]

I really think this isn't about lag (ok so what .001% of the population doing Epic VoN runs will be laggy...cry...). This is more about an EPIC NERF on TWF, the most popular combat style. Hrmm, +5 heart of woods in tandem with this announcement...coincidence? I THINK NOT!

[kamimitsu]

Well, Mechanics are getting repeating crossbows for free! I guess that is symptomatic with the rogue capstone. We are supposed to range trashmobs in adventure zones and run the solo quest Raiding the Giants Vault while other classes raid and run Epic.

Because why would anyone pick a rogue, *now coming with freshly lowered DPS!* over a THF barb in his group anymore? So thanks devs, you drove away Sableshadow, one of the best rogue players in the game with your rogue hate - let's see how many you manage to drive away with this stunt.

Screw that. I'm keeping my Pure Rogue Assassin until the very day that this game goes belly up. If nothing else, so that other melee classes (Barbarians and Rangers, the only ones left) can whisper as he runs by, "See, that is what DPS used to look like!"

In all seriousness, I hold out hope that while there will no doubt be a lessening of DPS for TWFers, there will be some balancing overall and opportunities for the classes most severely hit to make up the difference. Where and why I still have that hope is anybody's guess; perhaps I'm just an eternal optimist.

[Ollathir]

So why would anyone bother with TWF anymore? Are we getting free hearts of wood and large ingredients (or Epic SoS since you mention it ) to respec and re-equip our characters?

To answer my first question I guess Rangers (since they get the feats for free), Monks (since you can't go THF with handwraps) and Rogues (since sneak attack on both hands is quite useful) may still prefer TWF. For other classes it seems like the investment is not worth it if you end up with similar DPS against single targets (assuming the THF is not twitching), less DPS against multiple targets, less to-hit, and one less feat if you are a Khopesh user (in addition to typically lower Str as well due to the heavier Dex investment).

With the addition of FB pre and the introduction of the ESoS I think THF has been brought back up to par with twf. If DPS is reduced for twf with this proposed fix im not for it, unless another way can be introduced to boost twf dps.

TWF requires a hardier investment than thf. With the need to have a high base dex, and the necessity of two weapons, it literally costs more to be a twf then a thf. The only bonus left would be the flexibility of having different stats on two weapons (for example, a monk splash ac ranger having +2 wis on one min II and +4 insight on the other)

With fighter/paly hate seeming broken, its already a large hill to climb to be able to do enough dps and have enough ac, AND enough hitpoints to be able to hold agro in a raid like ToD (a raid where lag is atrocious), by lowering twf dps this makes it that much more difficult for a twf fighter to do this. This is just one example, however with the cost involved going twf I think it should do more single target dps then thf, but less AoE dps then THF.

Obviously these are simply my opinions on the matter, but I think by reducing dps on twf you have taken away the last reason to go twf (similar dps to thf in most cases) and we will see mostly thf running around (this bodes bad for my pure paly who will have more competition for the ESoS )

If the issues is # of calcs/second, what about streamlining the additional weapon procs done by greensteel? Maybe instead of 1dX damage on a tier, it becomes X damage every hit.

How about adding more chances per attack? Instead of a % chance every attack as you propose, what about a guaranteed attack & a % chance (much less then 90% prolly) So, if you have all the twf you get X number of xtra attacks guaranteed, as well as X% chance to proc another attack per offhand, or main hand swing.


Im not a math wiz, and others can do it much more reliably than I can, but it seems we should be able to come up with some combination that gives similar or slightly buffed dps, while reducing lag at the same time.



EDIT:::Big props for attempting this. Many have seen this as a game breaking problem for a long time (the only times i think about canceling for 2 years now is when extremely lagged out). While most understand its not a simple fix, it is still fresh to see someone trying to fix it, instead of "Hey we fixed lag, heres Dungeon Alert"

Ya, I'm with ya on this Cyr... If it hits Lamania with Update 5, it will come to live servers. I forsee no changes to this system and it is coming. Time to gear up for THF.

I'm sorry but 55% chance to land your off hand attack with a base GTWF build is a waste of 3 Feats and attribute points to get those Feats. You are going away from the D&D system once again.

Agreed. TWF is a heavier investment than THF, and shouldnt be 'adjusted down' to THF DPS. Rather bland choice of melee builds would be encouraged if people decided to stick around and adapt to the proposed changes. Max STR high CON, ESoS or greensteal.

I am extremely disappointed to hear of this nerf. 2HF had already caught up to 2WF and even passed it with epic SoS. Elite and Epic play is dominated by 2HF Barbarians and Kensai. All I see is a terrible and unwarranted nerf to 2WF and especially to the poor rogues who already struggle to find a place in high end content.

It sounds like you have proposed to reduce DPS lag by simply reducing DPS altogether. Make no mistake, this change will cost the average rogue 25% of his DPS and greatly nerf all strategies that involve high attack rate (vorpal, smite, banish, WoP, WoE, etc.). The sheer number of attacks being thrown by 2WF was the only thing keeping it remotely competitive with 2HF, now that is gone.

Agreed. No reason to carry a Vorpal in the offhand if you need to roll and confirm your 20 only after seeing if you even used your offhand. Again, better off switching to THF if you plan on tanking under these proposed changes.

At this time there are no changes planned for haste action boosts.


You are correct, double strike at this time does not apply to ranged or thrown attacks. We are planning on investigating various improvements to ranged combat in a future update.


Monsters would take 50% longer to kill only if the off-hand chance was reduced to zero, and a chance to attack under 100% was applied to the main hand as well. (As main hand attacks deal more damage than off-hand, with the exception of the monk.)

At least I know where I stand with my Monk.

The biggest problem with all of this, is that some people have spent 4 years collecting weapons and building toons that are 2WF, and some of them are pretty freaking good! Some of them are "Godly" compared to most. I have 6 2WF's and 3 THF's. I enjoy playing the THF's more, but the 2WF's clearly outclass the THF. Like I said, people have spent YEARS developing and fine tuning these toons and outfitting them. Now you plan to make adjustments to all of that and it may take them years to get them back to being the "best".

If you want to get past all the fears that most of these people have then you may have to make some sacrifices, such as;

Allow a full/free respec
Allow Greensteel items to be changed (years of farming gone/useless for some toons)
Allow DT runes for DT Armor to be returned or adjusted (years of farming)

Some people have farmed for years to make their toons great and now will think YOU are nerfing them. YOU ARE! But for the benifit of all, and I think it's great! I can't begin to tell you about all the 2HF's in Pre Launch that were VERY discouraged when they figured out that they were being out gunned by Khopesh and Dwarven Axe dual wielders.. and then when WOPS came in to play....eek....

Anyways, you are bringing a whole lot of fear into people that have worked for years to get their toons to being the BEST... Help them get over it... give them some options... just in case.

Battlehawke

That would be nice, but unlikely for a couple reasons. Doing that would be like saying "We made this change, we know you wont like it, here build a THF if you want to be a main tank. Also as you mentioned many folks have spent years getting to where they are... well, kind of makes sense from a buisiness perspective to make us spend another couple years doing it all over again don't it?

Attaching the offhand attack to the mainhand is a smart way to reduce lag, but reducing two weapon fighting's DPS by 25% is a problem for me.

The game was getting quite balanced between two-handed and two weapon fighting for most classes, with clear advantages in both. Two weapon fighting gave the vanilla baseline character an advantage, but it cost far more to maintain. Fighting multiple monsters with Greater Two Handed Fighting quickly changed that balance enough to matter. Class/race bonuses & equipment propped up two handed fighting to beat out that baseline on a large number of builds. Many weapons besides khopeshes were finally getting some use. Scimitar & falchion enhancements, favored soul favored weapons, ranger bow & arcane archer enhancements -- all of these were shaking things up. I have never seen the game this balanced (and varied) in that respect.

This change brings too many unintended nerfs to classes that simply don't deserve it. A small change in power is one thing, but I can think of dozens of builds that simply need to go reroll because they took lines like Kensei or Monks at face value, assuming the theme would keep them afloat even as the game changed.

I don't know what more to say. In all the time I have played DDO ... through "mod 9 coming soon" and Dungeon Alert and epic and everything else, nothing has really fazed my desire to keep pushing the norms and keeping things fresh in DDO. The way this change was implemented leaves me very, very disappointed.

Couldn't agree more.

That is correct.


Dungeon Alert was meant to control one particular source of lag. (Specifically, pathing and perception systems of large numbers of monsters in a small area, since that's an n^2 problem.) It was never expected to banish all of it. Likewise, these changes are not expected to banish all forms of lag, but should help some of them.

E, I'd much rather have lag than a sweeping change like this that should help some forms of lag. I dont really need to see it on live server to understand what the end result will be for TWF. As stated I think the investment as a good TWF deserves a better payout than whats on the table and doesnt need to be moved anywhere closer to THF.

[M3thos]

I hope you guys would address the lag issue pretty fast. I seem to lag in just about every raid and kinda dont want to run them anymore. So if u guys can get that worked out some I would love to run more raids. I know you wont be able to get rid of all the lag but just fix it some. When I go to the raid I drop my graphics all the way down and it still doesn't help. So I hope you guys can help

[Razcar]

The only rogue we will see in high levels is an NPC. "Wave to Jeets now children, he is the last of his kind!"

[Rexmundis]

The only rouge we will see in high levels is an NPC. "Wave to Jeets now children, he is the last of his kind!"

LOL.

Throw in Paladins too... and fvs.... and warchanters... and...fighters

[Chai]

Alot of absolute statements beng made in this thread, long before any testing has been done.

I am looking at the WoP "nerf" threads here as a past example. End result, it takes 2 nanoseconds longer to kill a mob than it used to.

Are you all willing to eat all those absolute statements if you are incorrect?

[Seikojin]

Close, but not quite yet there. Only 5% from Tempest 3? Make it 10. Drop STWF.

Rangers now attack 10% (20% offhand/2) faster than Fighter 20, which is offset by their higher strength and crit multi. Paladins via Zeal will be either (depending on smite mechanics). Fighters will be either, with a preference toward THF. Barbs will be THF. Rogues will be TWF.

Done.

Actually, the percentages in that is perfectly fine because the Temp 3 tier has over 100% on the mainhand, producing more hits than everyone else. %% over doesn't seem like much to you, but it yeilds an extra attack every 20th swing of the main hand. And that doesn't include the doublestrike feature (if that is still left in).

The doublestrike feature is really a stopgap to keep dps pretty much the same as dps is now when the off hand proc appears.

Also, I dunno why people say temp 3 is the king of swing hill. A full feat twf swings as many times as a tempest, currently.

[Sirslapemsack]

could someone bring the charts to the front or point to the page they are on?? Hard to find them and ppl are still talking about this as if its a lag issue.

[Razcar]

Alot of absolute statements beng made in this thread, long before any testing has been done.

I am looking at the WoP "nerf" threads here as a past example. End result, it takes 2 nanoseconds longer to kill a mob than it used to.

Are you all willing to eat all those absolute statements if you are incorrect?

What "testing" do you want to do? It is not like he said "we will lower DPS a little bit" or "TWF will loose some DPS". Rogues, TWF bards and others are getting 10% lower DPS if this is carried through, with no possibility to take STWF. It is on the first page on this thread. That's it.

I was in favor of the WoP nerf, even though I had two capped characters using WoPs alot. But this change I am totally against. It strikes at the ones already weak.

[Wizzly_Bear]

I am looking at the WoP "nerf" threads here as a past example. End result, it takes 2 nanoseconds longer to kill a mob than it used to.

That is incorrect. It can take several seconds longer for some enemies.