Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Razcar]

What a mess this game has become.

Our DM is an engineer with illusions of grandeur ("Wizards of the Coast are nothing against me! Look at these TWF rules!") instead of a storyteller and a leader who has everyone's fun as his/her focus. There are just too many contrived, complicated and meaningless house rules, house rules that are playing favourites ("take that you smug rogues!").

Sad.

[Nightorb]

Eladrin,

Firstly i would like to point out i am a VIP member and pay for my content monthly so anything that may detract from my gaming experience i have to consider carefully as i am paying for something i like....after all you wouldnt buy something you dont like would you.

The company needs its subscribers like myself for revenue however if too many people dont like the changes implemented due to gimping etc how many would stay ??

After reading a lot of posts i can see why the system needs changing to rectify lag...however, the point is viable how there only seems to be replies to only pro change posts. After your honesty at posting i would have thought that you or other developers would take up the challenge and reply to the negative feedback which has been posted, and to be honest there is quite a lot. That aside i have both a monk (lvl 6) and a rogue (lvl 10). i struggle now because as a rogue we have to create the right situation to gain sneak attack, top that with the fact that the 20 - 25% approx decrease in dps when i finally do make that sneak will in my opinion (and it seems a lot of others), gimp my build.

Further what about hardware upgrades ?? i notice this question was not answered either, is this because you know its a way it can be done but cant afford to implement but not want to give the community the idea of lack of funds which should not be the case after the recent buyout. (square peg round hole....make the round hole bigger). i cannot believe that in this day and age its not possible with all the technology out there to remedy this with hardware.

Also as stated with previous posts what about simply cutting down the dice rolls...1 roll for both hands...and the other various ways to minimise cpu usage. (pointning to hardware issues as opposed to combat system). there is no doubt a great deal of debate ongoing about this with you developers.

The fact still reamins for TWF users to have such high dps they invest a lot more time and feats, weapons in game gold, or be extremely lucky for loot drops to get it only to find that the new system if implemented has rendered a 25% loss in dps simply abhorent.

Dont get me wrong i dont oppose change i just think that change can be implemented in other ways, as opposed to a complete revamp of a system which at this point seems to be working.

IF ITS NOT BROKE DONT FIX IT

having played both WoW and Runes of Magic i came to DDO as it was the closest to the pen and paper game ive loved for over twenty years...and yes i realise you cannot directly transfer to online and expect it to work but i also think this latest "fix" is deviating from the core a little too much. TWF works just fine in PnP and up till now just fine here. why not fix the lag problem by other means then look at balancing ??

Lastly if this is going to proceed then give something back to those who have dedicated time and money to creating thier characters thier way (DnD ethos) only to find in my opinion that you dont care you haved gimped thier characters. Sorry for such a long post, but i dont post at all usually but found this to be a step too far along the line of detracting from an experience i am enjoying PAYING for and im sure those that dont pay feel the same. i hope this sits nicely with your paid subscribers as without them regular incoming would not be forthcoming.

[Natashaelle]

Well now before I log for the night just thought I would say:
R.I.P
Monk, Rogue, and Warchanter, and battle clerics/fvs/arcanes.
R.I.P
Diversity.
R.I.P
Twitch THF's

Let a new era reign.

You're rather quick and eager with your spade and your six-foot plot of land ...

I have a couple of unorthodox build battle clerics, and they both look set to actually become *more* powerful as a result of the proposed changes ; although I may need to wait on my main's second TR to see what comes out of this first, and maybe LR the other one.

My other 2wf toons are a dorf who's so thick he won't notice the difference, a ranger with rogue and wizzie splashies who won't be much affected, a bunch of lowbies who can adapt, and my poor arcana gimp who's gonna get himself gimped into oblivion by Update 5 and will *definitely* need a good dose of LR... (but I wanted to keep him gimped as he is now )

The only thing I really dislike about the STWF proposal is that it's one extra feat, and that's rather a lot for the more unorthodox mêlée types, as well as this idea of minimum +16 BAB and 19 Dex, which many people will find to be quite frustrating -- though it might be more palatable if the prereqs for STWF were GTWF and +16 BAB *OR* 19 Dex ?

I think that I'd have no problem at all with the changes *IF* there were a level cap increase in the works for the medium term future. A level cap of 24 would ensure that a diverse range of builds could continue to use the 2WF tactics unimpaired

[bloodyrag]

i have 9 2wf toons and a 2hf barb. im not against nerfing 2wf a bit but am totally deadset against it unless the customer base is given a free chance to change their toons and deconstruct the greensteels made. this doesnt even begin to cover the costs of building such toons up if u think of the hours upon hours of running shrouds nor the cost of paying for those top notch random generated items u also need. that cost cant b covered in any way but greensteels are completly able to b recovered. to me this is more of a money spinner from turbine and can only hope that we are at least given a scrap from the table to lessen the impact this will have on a massive percentage of the server population. bring on deconstruction even if its just a once off for toons that have 2wf in their build as these are the ones being nerfed.
kudos to at least attempting to reduce lag its nice to see some serious thought is going into that side just dont do another downer to your customers without acnowledgeing the time and effort we have put in. we waited more than 8 months for an update in blind faith with turbine hanging in with no word from turbine time to think of your customers instead of the bottom dollar

[zealous]

What u mean here is u figured out the "new" way to tap the button.

No. What I mean is that they are fundamentally different. The spam glitch had virtually no drawbacks, twitching does.

What u mean here is that my DPS is much, much better this way so I can kill stuff faster.

NO. What I mean is that it's more fun to move around while fighting and having to concentrate on maintaining twitch than standing still and holding autoattack. DPS would be higher with 2wf in most cases.

What u mean here is ur version of pnp.

No. What I mean is that if you look at it objectively there are similarities.
In PnP you get increased attacks against low AC targets, in DDO you get increased attacks against low AC targets if you twitch.

What u mean here is: because ac doesnt matter in game it means ur DPS is much, much better this way so U can kill stuff faster.

What u mean here is: Massive decrease in twf so that my twitch THF can have higher dps than a weakling twf build.

No. I play many builds, mainly 2wf. Incidently the dps nerf to THF will likely be greater since glancing blows generally consists of more than 10% of THF damage output.

Here u mean the nerf to ur toon matters to u!! Well the NERF to my toons matter to me!! And im not using any bug in game to increase my dps.

No. What I try to illustrate is that the change is probably good for game balance and that additionally it will likely lead to more fun due to less uniform visual feedback.


In any case the nerf is comming.....I just hope the eSOS gets the hammer as well. As for twitch fighting...the devs attempted to git rid of it along time ago.....if it's of any consolation to u...misery loves company...POW take a Nerf hammer hit to ur THF!

The Bytcher~[/QUOTE]
If they had wanted to get rid of twitching they would have, what they instead did was to lessen the benefits of it. Something they're doing yet again with the changes proposed here.

Your reply is fatally flawed in that you try to pass off your interpretation as my opinion. Simply changing "What u mean" to "Do you mean" would make it much more constructive.

[krud]

What a mess this game has become.

Our DM is an engineer with illusions of grandeur ("Wizards of the Coast are nothing against me! Look at these TWF rules!") instead of a storyteller and a leader who has everyone's fun as his/her focus. There are just too many contrived, complicated and meaningless house rules, house rules that are playing favourites ("take that you smug rogues!").

Sad.

Since DDO is not a turn based game, then how do they "stick to the rules"? As long as they are getting roughly the same number of attacks, what difference does it make how they are determined by the computer?

[Merlocke]

Here's an idea. How about you start nerfing CASTERS for once.

Never! Oh and fix our fogs please.

[krud]

NO. What I mean is that it's more fun to move around while fighting and having to concentrate on maintaining twitch than standing still and holding autoattack. DPS would be higher with 2wf in most cases..

They could always make glancing blows proc in the same manner that offhand weapons do, and keep glancing blows while moving. It would keep real twitch THF dps intact, but remove the quirky, stutter step, so-called "twitch" exploit.

[Razcar]

Since DDO is not a turn based game, then how do they "stick to the rules"? As long as they are getting roughly the same number of attacks, what difference does it make how they are determined by the computer?

Of course it doesn't matter how they are determined by the computer, don't be silly.
What matters is your "roughly", lol. Why are rogues getting the shaft Krud? Please give me the reason.

And while how the game is implemented technically cannot be the same, the correlation between the classes and the spirit of the rules can. (One good thing they did in their bastardized version of 3.5 was calm down high level casters, that I agree on.)

Instead we get crack-pot sweeping game changes from an out-of-touch DM who would really need to sit at the player's spot at the gaming table for a couple of months.

[Aspenor]

Yeah, rogues are really getting kicked in the nuts on this one. So much so that I'd argue something like Acrobat and Assassin should give them something equatable to zeal, tempest, and alacrity (and not just with one weapon type).

[Scraap]

I can see where reducing k-tree check frequency would be of benefit (typically the heftiest load in a raycast, since it involves parsing areas for subareas then checking the list of critters in that area, at which point we finally bear on down to point vs point comparison, if it's an even remotely typical physics setup, anyway). I might however offer one early-out on the suggestion, since you've proven you've the backbone built in already:

First check for movement by both parties, *then* calculate percentages to striking in order to simulate the probability of something remaining in-range.

You are, after all proposing doing so for the THF line in terms of procs.

Seems like that would apply a bit more of a scalpel approach.

[tkneip1874]

ive been reading this off and on so im not 100% up to speed but from what i have gathered the problem is all the dice rolls for damage. why not set damage instead of random. instead of acid doing 1d6 why not make it 4? just a thought

[Aesop]

I skimmed over this before, but now that I think about it, I recommend against giving Warchanters a Song of Doublestrike.

It could be too powerful, making it hard to balance content against groups both with Warchanter and with other bards, or with Warchanter and with no bard. Of course whether that happens depends on the details of how long Song of Doublestrike lasts and what it stacks with, but it seems it would be quite hard to create a version that feels powerful enough for the Warchanter player to notice the effect without being overpowered.

Doublestrike is a multiplicative bonus to damage (like Haste is), and multiplicative damage bonuses are often deceptively powerful. Warchanters already get more Inspire Courage damage than other bards, and that advantage will probably increase at tier 2 and 3. That'll be enough of them getting songs to boost the damage of melee-specced characters; other bonuses they get can be for defensive/utility buffs or the damage of characters who aren't already near the top of the DPS heap (like maybe Song of BAB).

That's a good point. Maybe instead they should roll it into Inspire Heroics and not make it part of a PrE at all.

and I'd be against STWF in general.

Also wondering about Wind Stance. I see WInd Stance IV granting a double strike... what about the rest of the levels?


WS1: +10% OH
WS2: +10% OH
WS3: +10% OH
WS4: +10% DS

maybe?

Dunno it doesn't seem to me that they should match Tempest flat out...

We have

Basic: 20%
TWF: 40%
ITWF: 60%
GTWF: 80%
Tempest 1: +10%
Tempest 2: +20%
Tempest 3: DS +10%
WS1: +5%
WS2: +10%
WS3: +15%
WS4: DS +10%


Kensai could also grant DS bonuses and the capstone could apply to both sides

so
Ken1: +2.5% DS
Ken2: +5% DS
Ken3: +10% DS
Capstone: +10% DS
Capstone: +10% OH

So the supreme Weapon Fighter kensai would have (w/ TWF)
Main Hand: 120
Off Hand: 90

Tempest would have
Main Hand: 110
Off Hand: 100

Wind Stance Monk would have
Main Hand: 110
Off Hand: 95

note monk doesn't include any PrE benefit or Capstone



Something that would be interesting to have added in would be a feat from Complete Warrior, Roundabout Kick. Extra Unarmed Attack Procs on Crit...


Aesop

[krud]

Of course it doesn't matter how they are determined by the computer, don't be silly.
What matters is your "roughly", lol. Why are rogues getting the shaft Krud? Please give me the reason.

And while how the game is implemented technically cannot be the same, the correlation between the classes and the spirit of the rules can. (One good thing they did in their bastardized version of 3.5 was calm down high level casters, that I agree on.)

Instead we get crack-pot sweeping game changes from an out-of-touch DM who would really need to sit at the player's spot at the gaming table for a couple of months.

The numbers can always be worked on a bit. This is a proposal, and they are asking for feedback. They can always adjust the final implementation and values. I have a rogue, and a twf fighter who are getting the shaft too, but i'm not gonna categorically reject everything just because i'm afraid of every change they propose.

[Aesop]

Also adding in a DS proc for Weapon Finesse (while finessing a weapon) would be a good benefit for the quick and nimble

Aesop

[Boromirs]

[Problems with this Solution]

1.) If you are adamant about adding STWF (which is a must to retain some semblence of DPS for TWF), you must drop or lower the reqs. Lower the BAB reqs, get rid of the 19 dex (it'll be 17). And perhaps allow for some players one free feat swap. Otherwise, very few people will be able to get STWF without totally starting over and even then it won't be worth getting, due to the now featless/more benefit THF. I will state that currently it would be impossible for a Paladin to get STWF (19 dex paladin?..um there goes your build).

2.) Debug it. Don't implement this live in the other servers without an insane amount of playtesting and debugging, thats part of the smooth transition so players don't go all in a uproar.

3.) Frankly, I would suggest keeping TWF the same and not messing with it. Work around this issue by just having both weapons piggyback on the same physics detection. This is still a severe nerf, but if you ABSOLUTELY MUST implement it keep a open mind during playtesting on Lamannia (don't be stone set on everything) and again playtest playtest playtest.

[Possible Physics detection solution?]

It looks like what you are doing is checking each weapon and calculating if it touches the monster or not (hence physics detection).If this is right then I think this is redundant. Divide your TWF character in half (from top of the head to the feet) and from left to right. The Main hand is the only one doing any collision detection, whenever an attack is made with it, it detects if any collision occured across the line from left to right. If detection occurs the system checks if it occured left of the (head to feet) line which then triggers the lefthand attack toward whatever is in the left or if the right of the line then right hand attack. So, there is ONE physics check but the point it was "breached" (left or right of line is factored in) is used for the main hand attack and "remembered" for the off-hand attack.

[krud]

And for those who realized early on that the best way to optimize sneak attacks was to tack them onto a rapid-fire monk style, or to pursue two-weapon fighting feats to increase attack speed, this 100/80 nonsense is tantamount to lowering their DPS by 20%. It's a complete slap in the face. Do you want to give us a 20% generic DPS increase to make up for it? And what about the lower tiers of ability, when our 100/100 just became a 100/40? Ugh.

Actually it's -10% dps, not 20% (and even less if you take into account that offhand attacks halve strength bonus)

going from 100+100 to 100+80 = 90% the number of attacks.

[krud]

also Adding In A Ds Proc For Weapon Finesse (while Finessing A Weapon) Would Be A Good Benefit For The Quick And Nimble

Aesop

/agreed

[Visty]

So, basically you're saying that this nerf is really all because Turbine is too frugal to install higher end equipment?

no, he said they decided between slowing down attacks or nerfing greensteel

they went with the lesser evil

[Aesop]

The numbers can always be worked on a bit. This is a proposal, and they are asking for feedback. They can always adjust the final implementation and values. I have a rogue, and a twf fighter who are getting the shaft too, but i'm not gonna categorically reject everything just because i'm afraid of every change they propose.

Ya know another thing could be to add a Rogue Special Bonus Feat that adds to either off hand or Double Strike... or both

perhaps a 10% OH bonus

Aesop