Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Iambeastx]

Ok,

The second table is much more stable looking, may need some tweaking with regard to specific classes but a far better improvement to the original table, imo.

Will this actually decrease lag or is it a hopeful fix to be tested first?

[Riggs]

And just to repeat...

So if part of the problem with dps lag is the NUMBER of rolls and calculations...and where people see it most is in raids - with high hit point monsters and raid bosses with massive hp....

Nurf twf fine. Nurf monster hp at the SAME time too then, but the SAME %.

Even less calculations = even less dps lag. And single weapon non-epic sos users will also be better off as well.

[Visty]

just 10 pages of catching up after waking up..thought it would be more

and it seems it slowed down now abit, you are all sleepin

I'd prefer if you gave a negative 5 to-hit on each consecutive off-hand attack.

that might abit too hard or has to checked carefull as ppl would just break their attackchain to not get any penalty
kinda like twitching for twf...which they now weakened for thf....doubt it will happen

[donfilibuster]

63 pages! it's a pain to read thru it.

D&D is about actions and its rolls, you are either skilled enough to do it in the time given or not at all.
There's no 'percentile' to see if you attack, 3rd edition cut out on most of the arbitrary tables in 2e to a simplified d20.

So "fast attacks is heavy processing" and you want to cut down on checks.
Are you entirely sure there's no way to work on this issue without changing the mechanic itself?

The part where succesive attacks need not check physics every time is right but can you keep the chain of attacks?
After the checks you have to send the data to show both the damages and the animations to all players, which are enqueued and cause lag.
Perhaps both the damage numbers and the animations can be buffered by also asumming you will keep attacking at full speed?

The animations of a 12 player bum rush with greensteel and overspeeding tickets may be alleviated by assuming they intend to keep attacking the monster at hand.
Basically it'd be easier to detect if you 'cease attacking' than if you 'keep attacking' on every attack.

As for the numbers you only see those that belong to you, but if there's lag they get enqueued and may leave you hanging for precious moments only to see them rush by at fast motion when the latency ease up, which often ends in you being dead.
The client may instead sum up the numbers so that you only see them once every second? (and not 4-6 per second).
That'd be the equivalent of the double attack without an actual proc chance that may vary your rate of attack.

Other ideas come to mind but the point is to make the effort to workaround the internals of the issue without requiring to alter the character build.
Isn't the game complex already to drop another line of proc boosting feats and enhancements?

[TheMoodyOne]

as a programmer i can understand why there is a problem with dps lag - too many calculations at once

you have x number of players all hitting a mob, y number of mobs all hitting players and x * y number of attacks which need geometry checks, attack rolls, damage rolls, ciritcal rolls etc etc

reducing the number of geometry checks is a start (and a good one) but cutting the number of attacks and intorducing a new random system (procs) which will require rolls to work out if it should hit or not doesnt go far enough - its a 25% reduction more or less

let me show you what i would do

lets take a Elf Paladin with a Holy Sword scimitar - full Kotc enhancments, wearing the Kotc item set, with the capstone and using a single divine sacrifice III attack, no critical, against an outsider

the damage roll will be:
1d6 Slashing from weapon, 2d6 good from holy, 1d6 good from cap stone, 2d6 light from cap stone, 4d6 from KotC, 1d6 from Kotc set, 9d6 light from divine sacrifice

total - 20 rolls

now heres how I would reduce rolls

instead of the above I would use:
1d6 slashing from weapon, 1 D15 + 3 Good, 1D55 + 11 Light, 1D25 + 5 from Kotc

total - 4 rolls with the same damage range (correct me if im wrong guys)

this is a 80% reduction in damage rolls - all you lose out on is logging each "virtual" d6 roll and the "dice range" (with 2 d6 you have a better chance of getting 7 than 1d12)

much simpler than adding a random proc element, less annoyed customers, far less rolls

[vVAnjilaVv]

Anyone that claims that TWF isn't superior dps to THF is either an idiot or a liar. Oops. What happened to your "look at me" text?

First of all the look at me text works fine...sorry I am not a dog and like things in color...secondly....I didn't say TWF wasn't.....I was simply stating that once again the vicious cycle of nerfing one thing to bring another in balance which will most likely result in THF having to be nerfed next is what is happening.

Anyone who can't see this is either blind or forgot to put in their contact lenses.

[Gobbothegreen]

]
First of all the look at me text works fine...sorry I am not a dog and like things in color...secondly....I didn't say TWF wasn't.....I was simply stating that once again the vicious cycle of nerfing one thing to bring another in balance which will most likely result in THF having to be nerfed next is what is happening.

Anyone who can't see this is either blind or forgot to put in their contact lenses.

Why would they have to nerf thf more? They are already nerfing it by removing glancing blows from the only thing making thf equal or better than twf (twitching). So basicly they are nerfing everything except S&B which of course still is worthless.

[Visty]

Why would they have to nerf thf more? They are already nerfing it by removing glancing blows from the only thing making thf equal or better than twf (twitching). So basicly they are nerfing everything except S&B which of course still is worthless.

are they nerfing thf or are they making thf and twf kinda equal?
thf looses abit damage cause no twitching but twf looses some too cause of less hits

in the end they might be balanced now without relying on twitch

[vVAnjilaVv]

Why would they have to nerf thf more? They are already nerfing it by removing glancing blows from the only thing making thf equal or better than twf (twitching). So basicly they are nerfing everything except S&B which of course still is worthless.

I don't know...let's hope this is the final balancing issue for melee and it is resolved.....but something tells me it will get unbalanced again somewhere and something will have to be nerfed relating to combat again.

Hopefully it will be something that effects all melee builds so we can at least all come on here and agree and be unified in our complaining

I mean seriously tho, how many times has Turbine "fixed" a balance issue without throwing something else completely out of whack.....I'm just hoping for the best and preparing for what is common.

I just hope this is thoroughly test on Lama before it goes thru to a final version...this is pretty huge.

[TechNoFear]

So if part of the problem with dps lag is the NUMBER of rolls and calculations....

Not all calculations are equal.

It is much quicker and easier to work out how much to tip your waiter than calculate the number of planets around a star based on Doppler spectroscopy.

[Gobbothegreen]

are they nerfing thf or are they making thf and twf kinda equal?
thf looses abit damage cause no twitching but twf looses some too cause of less hits

in the end they might be balanced now without relying on twitch

Yeah, thats kinda what i tried to say but it came out in a hard to understand way, i only hope tempest wont get hit as hard as it seems like it will now.

[akiraproject24]

Hmmm...haste run speed got the nerf
dungeon alert implemented
now our attack speed is getting the nerf


Im sick of being slowed down...

When the cap was raised to 20 your hardware should have been upgraded to meet the performance requirements that would enable lvl 20 characters to perform as intended. This entire idea is unacceptable...not that anyone cares but when this nerf takes place I will cease paying for this game any longer..Ive sat through the nerfs since the cap was 10 remember human adaptability was passive...well since then thru the years Ive watched the nerfs take place and have adapted to them, mod 9 killed our movement speed and effectiveness of stat damagers, and now our attacks are going to be hit...thats will be the straw that breaks this camels back.

[Zerkul]

I don't like this change. I didn't like grazing hit system too... but this percentage of proc offhand attacks sounds to me ridicolous really: what's next?

[Raveolution]

I don't like this change. I didn't like grazing hit system too... but this percentage of proc offhand attacks sounds to me ridicolous really: what's next?

Agree at 100% all this sucks, is **** !!

[akiraproject24]

I don't like this change. I didn't like grazing hit system too... but this percentage of proc offhand attacks sounds to me ridicolous really: what's next?

ill tell ya whats next...

"Since your characters are too overpowered and our last attempt to fix it was unsuccseful we are asking that all players stop fighting monsters as our system cannot handle the load. Please just stand still and be very quiet..if you are quiet enough maybe they wont see you. This should stop the lag you are seeing as it will enable our system to process whats actually happening in the game" Thank you and see you in game!

[Pyromaniac]

I'm not a big fan of the changes, as I think within the 60+ pages so far I saw some good suggestions:

1) repeat previous dice rolls
2) combine player dps data and tie it to variables outside of combat. Then use that variable and only have 1 dice roll per attack for damage i.e. with this weapon, this toon does 120-140 damage, random between 120-140 instead of rolling up everything during combat.
3) reduce mob HP by the amount of the nerf to dps\
4) eliminate grazing hits, as it also adds dps lag
5) eliminate DA, because it slows the game down, and you'll need to speed it up to compensate for this DPS slow down. I'm also a fan of turnbased, so we could go to turnbased too

Regardless, since this is appearing here, its a done deal.

So I propose this: Allow full Lesser Reincarnation+20 tokens for every existing character. Provide full greensteel deconstruction for every existing character. We can all switch to THF with our SOS and not kill most of our characters.

Wiping out the vast majority of my melee toons isn't making a customer that's going to provide more money. Allow me to fully respec/re-greensteel every character for free might keep me giving more $.

[Cybersquirt]

How about you nerf the greensteel and not the monks.

Here's an idea. How about you start nerfing CASTERS for once.

[akiraproject24]

Hmmm...haste run speed got the nerf
dungeon alert implemented
now our attack speed is getting the nerf


Im sick of being slowed down...

When the cap was raised to 20 your hardware should have been upgraded to meet the performance requirements that would enable lvl 20 characters to perform as intended. This entire idea is unacceptable...not that anyone cares but when this nerf takes place I will cease paying for this game any longer..Ive sat through the nerfs since the cap was 10 remember human adaptability was passive...well since then thru the years Ive watched the nerfs take place and have adapted to them, mod 9 killed our movement speed and effectiveness of stat damagers, and now our attacks are going to be hit...thats will be the straw that breaks this camels back.

This isnt coming from a player with twf main, I actually play 3 thf characters 2 with completed epic sos's/ I also play 4 twf toons so i stand on both sides here. But a DPS nerf is a DPS nerf and it isnt fair to those that have invested the time and money to create our intruments of destruction. 4 years of paying for this game I believe some of that money should have been invested more wisely i.e hardware but instead you expect me to basically pay again by watching my characters cease to perform as I built them to. Can someone say heated! Its taking quite a bit of will power not to make a jack hole of myself here and just accepting a ban in lieu of quitting my sub

[Cybersquirt]

They're continuously "revising" the rules of this game. I'll be interested in seeing the fallout from this move.

[Natashaelle]

I'm REALLY hoping STWF will only require 17 dex.

You're not the only one mate