Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Borror0]

That's why I am saying just leave it alone or least change it to a less extreme solution

I'm telling you that this is the least extreme solution.

[lord_of_rage]

Ok, I like this changed numbers quite more then the initial ones ...



Uhm, I am absolutly unsure how to fit in an additional feat like STWF in most builds, at least for a Paladin it would be nearly impossible...

Current recomended Paladin twf kotc feats

TWF
ITWF
Toughness
Imp crit
Power attack
GTWF
extend

New feat set up.
TWF
ITWF
Toughness
Imp crit
Power attack
GTWF
STWF

So you lose extend. Extend is nice but not needed. For a dos build Id do it the same way only there would be a two lvl splash there, for the dos feats I want.

[hydra_ex]

I'm telling you that this is the least extreme solution.

Well, least extreme in terms of how much editing of source code or hardware or whatever they have to do.

In terms of gameplay experience, its still quite extreme, although I could imagine quite a few extremer work-arounds (as I'll call this; it not really a "fix")

Current recomended Paladin twf kotc feats

TWF
ITWF
Toughness
Imp crit
Power attack
GTWF
extend

New feat set up.
TWF
ITWF
Toughness
Imp crit
Power attack
GTWF
STWF

So you lose extend. Extend is nice but not needed. For a dos build Id do it the same way only there would be a two lvl splash there, for the dos feats I want.

Or you could pick up minIIs and get rid of imp crit. Either way, Paladin's loose something

[Souless]

Ah, but there is a major difference. Tapping the button was dead easy, twitching requires timing and is made more difficult by actually being in combat.
What u mean here is u figured out the "new" way to tap the button.

I was originally very sceptical to it but after trying it through a char or two I must say that it's one of the best things in the game, purely on account of making combat more fluent and fun.
What u mean here is that my DPS is much, much better this way so I can kill stuff faster.

Twitching also brings ddo closer to PnP, bear with me...
What u mean here is ur version of pnp.
PnP: Multiple attacks with decreasing attack bonus. Higher damage per round against low ac foes.
N here u mean that "bending the rules" in ur favor is acceptable. The dev's nerfed the tap button speed attack...stands to reason the NEVER intented this.
DDO: Twitching gives higher number of attacks at the cost of attack bonus, same as PnP. The main benefit is that you can take 5foot steps without suffering loss of attacks.
What u mean here is: because ac doesnt matter in game it means ur DPS is much, much better this way so U can kill stuff faster.
---
Regarding the change I can kind of digest the changed numbers. 2wf will suffer a slight decreas What u mean here is: Massive decrease in twf so that my twitch THF can have higher dps than a weakling twf build.bringing it close to non-twitch 2h, more notable for classes where 2wf has pronounced advantages. At the same time twitching will loose glancing blows bringing it closer to non-twitch and staying ~proportional to 2wf.
Here u mean the nerf to ur toon matters to u!! Well the NERF to my toons matter to me!! And im not using any bug in game to increase my dps.
Gut feeling only, will crunch numbers when/if I get the time.

The notable thing for me is that I think I'll go "omg thass so kewl" more from seeing double strikes and getting streaks of off hand procs compared to the relative same same of holding the attack button.

Same tactic as the haste change in first presenting a horrendous version before presenting the real version? =)

In any case the nerf is comming.....I just hope the eSOS gets the hammer as well. As for twitch fighting...the devs attempted to git rid of it along time ago.....if it's of any consolation to u...misery loves company...POW take a Nerf hammer hit to ur THF!

The Bytcher~

[lord_of_rage]

Well, least extreme in terms of how much editing of source code or hardware or whatever they have to do.

In terms of gameplay experience, its still quite extreme, although I could imagine quite a few extremer work-arounds (as I'll call this; it not really a "fix")




Or you could pick up minIIs and get rid of imp crit. Either way, Paladin's loose something

I have never seen extend as a needed feat. As far as min2s go on pallys I craft lit2s first as you have holy sword for hard and elite raids. So dropping imp crit would hurt. And by dropping imp crit you are pretty much limiting yourself to min2s or be much less effective. So Id rather drop extend.

[hydra_ex]

I have never seen extend as a needed feat. As far as min2s go on pallys I craft lit2s first as you have holy sword for hard and elite raids. So dropping imp crit would hurt. And by dropping imp crit you are pretty much limiting yourself to min2s or be much less effective. So Id rather drop extend.

I agree; I'm just presenting another reasonably viable alternative.

[lord_of_rage]

I agree; I'm just presenting another reasonably viable alternative.

I can see that now if you are a paladin that slaps a tenderizer in your off hand and takes stunning blow over extend now it really hurts. But yes either way pallys lose something. It kinda bites as paladins have become my favorite class.

[The_Phenx]

I can leave it out, but thought that including it as an option would be beneficial.


Tempest II's already have the benefits of STWF in the proposed change, as they reach 100% off hand attacks.

YES.... leave it in.. its a good option for kensai fighters to have strong twf...and as a kensai TWF my opinion matters

[Seventh]

I can see that now if you are a paladin that slaps a tenderizer in your off hand and takes stunning blow over extend now it really hurts. But yes either way pallys lose something. It kinda bites as paladins have become my favorite class.

I feel your pain. I only rolled my first pally recently, but only 10 levels in he became my favorite toon... (Oh God need to reroll to thf now **** **** gaaah- STOP. Don't panic. Wait to see how it turns out. Be calm. Caaalm.)

[Chai]

Different systems in same intensive instance ( raids ) causing server side lag due to attempted synchronization with the lowest common denominator.
Here is a test: Solo Shroud on your non-gaming machine and then try it on a top end gaming machine. See which one has the worst lag( or any). I've tried it both ways. My junk machine will sputter out. My top end one keeps on as if I'm in the Butcher's Path. ALL the players in an raid instance need to be on decent machines. ALL the players in a red alert zergfest need to be on top end machines. Turbine does need to re-evaluate their server code ( see the threads on mem loss), but the core problem with massive lag is player side hardware/connection speed issues. It's like trying to synchronize a 1600 baud modem with a T1 line, not gonna work too well if alot of bits are being pumped. One will always be trying to catch up with the other, and packet loss will increase for ALL parties included in the data stream.

No.

We should not all have to be playing on a render farm somewhere in an animation studio to not get lag.

If I am on a low end system and you are on a high end system and we are in the same raid, according to what you are saying, you should not be experiencing the lag I am experiencing, and this simply isnt true in DDO.

All 12 of us get the lag in the shroud at the same time on vastly different systems.

I am on a video editing machine. My computer can handle it. I am not getting lag because someone else in the raid is on a commodore 64. I am getting lag because the server is a commodore 64, just like everyone else isgetting that same lag.

The type of lag you are describing was more common in EQ when we had 75 people in the same raid zone, all with particle effects, etc.

The packet loss is due to the system not being able to deliver the information quickly enough, not due to our systems being able to handle it. But hey, they made a game where people can generate this level of DPS, and now the only solution is to nerf the DPS calc by nerfing DPS generated.

The only part I dont get is its all the melee players who are moaning about it when it should be the clerics and FvS who have to now heal through the even more extended raids where they already have to drink pots.

[Razcar]

Tempest II's already have the benefits of STWF in the proposed change, as they reach 100% off hand attacks.

And what about rogues Eladrin? Why would anyone play a rogue that has to work for its DPS and now won't get it anymore anyway?

[Daehawk]

I think this would be a perfect time for the release of Holy Sword Falchion ^_^

[Auriljr]

And what about rogues Eladrin? Why would anyone play a rogue that has to work for its DPS and now won't get it anymore anyway?

"Delete ALL Rogues" eldarin responses or will response in a near future :P

[Khelden]

Dude every post you have made has been I want you to change TWF because I am a THF fighting dude and I am gimped....so please nerf everyone one else because I am too lazy or not smart enough to fix my toon....I have known alot of folks who play THF and are not gimped, so this leads me to believe it has to do with player and or build. How many toons you have that will be affected by this? If your main was a monk you would not be as supportive I think.

TWF need more gear,have less points to spread around and then are only margainly beter the THF...if they were equal WHAT REASON WOULD THERE BE TO PLAY A TWF? What don't you GET!?!?!

If the play style doesn't fit you, go play something else. Think THF is easier? Go play it. I will keep my TWF even if they balance them with THF, I always play what I feel to play. At the moment, my main is my rogue/rngr/pal [TWF as you prolly guessed]

Also, I wouldn't say that my main is THF. I have a TWF fighter, a THF fighter, a Monk (pure, str based), TWF Paladin (because I just could NOT do THF, THF paladins are wayyy behind TWF), a rogue [well... call it what you want, but 12 rogue, 6 ranger, 2 pal) and a WF Barb. Now, which one is my main? Hummmmmm... None. But to answer your question, 4 of my characters will be affected by this + the toons I told my friend to roll.

Yeah, TWF costs more. So what? Each time I play a character, I trade time for experience or gear. If Im playing on my THF and planning to play 6 hours, I will do so. If I'm on my TWF, I won't play more just because they are harder to gear.

[IronClan]

Who is going to move in 0.15 seconds? Especially a raid boss, where this happens the most? Why don't you just do the smart thing and make 1 check per MH swing, and just ASSUME that the monster is there for the OH.

^^^ this

The more I think about this the less elegant and more tacked on the double strike idea looks.. and the more elegant and simple the idea of just doing away with the extra physics looks...

Could even just do away with this situationally...

I'm kinda surprised that DDO doesn't seem to have any "scaling" for lag or at least none is noticible or talked about by the devs... Situationally dumbing the mechanics down when lag hits would seem to be something that would fix a lot of it, once the bandwidth or resource usage hits a critical threshold, you stop sending combat logs, stop sending the least important graphical related traffic to the clients, start skipping animation (and client updates about them) etc.

like resource scaling in a 3D modeling/animation program... when the CPU is bogging down lower the details that are least important and push the most important feedback through...

[SisAmethyst]

Its 19 base dex in the book game, as well as 16 BAB, which means it will be a level 18 feat for just about everyone taking it except those with fighter levels. Even though monks get their flurry to even off their BAB to 20, this does not qualify them for feats as they are still 3/4, so no STWF for rogues monks cleric FvS and bards.

In the book game, its an epic feat, so those classes would have 16 BAB at level 22.

Well, we are not in epic Levels yet for DDO and I guess we will not see levels beyond 20 very soon anyway. If we finally get there then we still can add STWF to this time...

[Razcar]

"Delete ALL Rogues" eldarin responses or will response in a near future :P

Talk about the class the devs ignored. Hey, at least we have a forum, it is here by the way Eladrin. You have to be happy for the small things. And Mechanics are getting repeating crossbows, how about that.

[vVAnjilaVv]

I'm telling you that this is the least extreme solution.

But if I am reading this properly....a bunch of multi-class builds are getting the short end of the stick......how is this a good thing?

I'm all for a change but making builds that worked beforehand have to re-spec I think is just shady.

Honestly I am really getting to the point where they should have just never made multi-classing an option in this game.

[hydra_ex]

^^^ this

The more I think about this the less elegant and more tacked on the double strike idea looks.. and the more elegant and simple the idea of just doing away with the extra physics looks...

Could even just do away with this situationally...

I'm kinda surprised that DDO doesn't seem to have any "scaling" for lag or at least none is noticible or talked about by the devs... Situationally dumbing the mechanics down when lag hits would seem to be something that would fix a lot of it, once the bandwidth or resource usage hits a critical threshold, you stop sending combat logs, stop sending the least important graphical related traffic to the clients, start skipping animation (and client updates about them) etc.

like resource scaling in a 3D modeling/animation program... when the CPU is bogging down lower the details that are least important and push the most important feedback through...

The problem with the "reassign resources" approach is that, at least according to my limited tests, they're on different channels. Not the whole game lags, just parts, so I don't think that it would help much, if any.

OTOH, guild names and combat feedback seems to be on the same channel, so it helps to turn it off.

[Souless]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezichiend View Post
Who is going to move in 0.15 seconds? Especially a raid boss, where this happens the most? Why don't you just do the smart thing and make 1 check per MH swing, and just ASSUME that the monster is there for the OH.

/signed
The Bytcher~