Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Persnoody]

The most common cause of lag is people game setting being to high, you can turn off all lighting and shadows and your game will improve allot (unless u have a beast machine), the game still looks great if your just playing with high detail. I play a lvl 20 wind monk that rarely misses (finness with 40 dex soon to be 42), I have all my setting at lowest except detail and draw distance... I'm playing on a computer from 2003 and I'm running the game on average at 45 fps while moving around in a public area.. in the shroud (where the lag happens allot) I don't go below 15 fps with one of thees "laggers"... I mean come on, I'm playing on a crappy dell from 03 with the only upgrades being 2 gigs of ram and a decent gfx card...

Here is a hint, allot of your in-game laggers are using laptops, you wouldn't believe the amount of people playing on laptops, and the majority aren't using machines built for games, this isn't a one way thing, to play a game you first need the hardware.

[pasterqb]

So a "Fighter" is a worse melee fighter than a "Ranger"?

Not gonna lie this is the most redundant thing i have seen in a long time.

[Chai]

The most common cause of lag is people game setting being to high, you can turn off all lighting and shadows and your game will improve allot (unless u have a beast machine), the game still looks great if your just playing with high detail. I play a lvl 20 wind monk that rarely misses (finness with 40 dex soon to be 42), I have all my setting at lowest except detail and draw distance... I'm playing on a computer from 2003 and I'm running the game on average at 45 fps while moving around in a public area.. in the shroud (where the lag happens allot) I don't go below 15 fps with one of thees "laggers"... I mean come on, I'm playing on a crappy dell from 03 with the only upgrades being 2 gigs of ram and a decent gfx card...

Here is a hint, allot of your in-game laggers are using laptops, you wouldn't believe the amount of people playing on laptops, and the majority aren't using machines built for games, this isn't a one way thing, to play a game you first need the hardware.

If this is the case then why do we all get the same level of lag at the same times on vastly different systems and only in the same raids?

[hydra_ex]

The most common cause of lag is people game setting being to high, you can turn off all lighting and shadows and your game will improve allot (unless u have a beast machine), the game still looks great if your just playing with high detail. I play a lvl 20 wind monk that rarely misses (finness with 40 dex soon to be 42), I have all my setting at lowest except detail and draw distance... I'm playing on a computer from 2003 and I'm running the game on average at 45 fps while moving around in a public area.. in the shroud (where the lag happens allot) I don't go below 15 fps with one of thees "laggers"... I mean come on, I'm playing on a crappy dell from 03 with the only upgrades being 2 gigs of ram and a decent gfx card...

Here is a hint, a lot of your in-game laggers are using laptops, you wouldn't believe the amount of people playing on laptops, and the majority aren't using machines built for games, this isn't a one way thing, to play a game you first need the hardware.

DPS lag is not affected (much) by your computer. It affects me pretty much equally whether I'm playing on my gaming computer or on my laptop.

The hardware required would be an insane connection which cost an arm and a leg and/or are not available to the general public. Its all game engine/code and connection, and it takes a really exceptional connection, and even then, its still Turbine's engine, mainly.

[Neko-kun]

I believe you are looking at this from the wrong angle.

1) Determine where dps lag is an issue. I don't see dps lag in 6 man groups, only in raids. Whenever there are more people, and more attacks(speed increases and twf), concentrated on one target, dps lag hits.

2) Develop simplest plan to avoid these situations. Since this mainly isolated to certain raid encounters, change the raid encounters to keep the same challenge, but avoiding the concentration on one target.

3) Avoid major game design changes that effect everyone, and further remove from core rules.

For instance, Shroud part 4. Lets pretend the encounter is designed like this:
Initial orthon/devil/bezekira fight.
Harry and gnolls spawn at same time.
Gnolls respawn after X seconds giving more regeneration, effectively increasing Harry's hps.
Harry's overall hps is lowered 20%.
Challenge level is comparable, more tactics are added by requiring some melee to be on gnoll duty, dps lag on single target is reduced.

Shroud part 5
Do not bring the lieutenants out until Harry is at a certain hps%, making a few melee need to go kill them. Their special effect auras would buff him so not killing them would not be an option.

Tower
Make it so not killing the orthons has a detrimental effect, but lower overall hps to compensate.

I would think changing a few encounters to give more tactics>removing build choices and changing current builds.

This seems like the best option.

Changing the entire system, would make people rage, cause builds to potentially be invalid, and the possibility of someone's 1AM coding causing major game screwups.

Altering the strategy of anything lag-heavy would probably be the best way to go. As I can see it, many builds that involve heavy multiclassing would be hurt by this. Yes, it would nerf the "super-uber-maximum-DPS" classes, but it would also make some of the more creative ones implode.

And this is DDO. Dungeons and Dragons. Strategy has ALWAYS been a part of the game (it's the spawn of Chainmail,) so adding tactics instead of just modifying the way people stand there and swing weapons would be a loved idea.

[vVAnjilaVv]

DPS lag is not affected (much) by your computer. It affects me pretty much equally whether I'm playing on my gaming computer or on my laptop.

The hardware required would be an insane connection which cost an arm and a leg and/or are not available to the general public. Its all game engine/code and connection, and it takes a really exceptional connection, and even then, its still Turbine's engine, mainly.

So if it's mainly Turbines engine then what they need to do is upgrade their hardware not nerf the game....or did I misinterpret?

[Boromirs]

BTW, if you guys are thinking about adding STWF you have to get rid of the 19 dex req or it'll just be a pointless feat for all (although it pretty much is except for possibly fighters due to extra feats).

[hydra_ex]

So a "Fighter" is a worse melee fighter than a "Ranger"?

Not gonna lie this is the most redundant thing i have seen in a long time.

More like this type of ranger.

Rangers and ranged combat have nothing really to do with one another (in terms of name), beyond a common root of the word "range." In one instance, it means patrol, in another, it means attack from a distance. Thus, ranger = patrol-er, whereas archer = ranged combat.

[Cashiry]

So I thought as a joke to our fearful guild leader and after reading all of these possible proposed changes I would create a new character.

What do you think?

lol, I'm sure Dmgpersec will love that if you actually level him...

[hydra_ex]

So if it's mainly Turbines engine then what they need to do is upgrade their hardware not nerf the game....or did I misinterpret?

Not so much hardware as the code itself. However, editing such an integral part of DPS calculation so late into the development of the game is probably very difficult.

Ideally that's what they should do, but at that point, they might as well come out with DDO2.

Its the sad truth

[Seikojin]

...Snip...
Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:

	Doublestrike	Bonus	Main hand	Off hand
No feats	0	20%	100%		20%
TWF		0	+20%	100%		40%
ITWF		0	+20%	100%		60%
GTWF		0	+20%	100%		80%
STWF		0	+20%	100%		100%
Tempest I	0	+10%	100%		90%
Tempest II	0	+10%	100%		100% 
Tempest III	+5%*	0	105%		100%
Wind IV		+10%	0	110%		80%
Zeal		+10%	0	110%		80%
Alacrity	+10%	0	110%		80%

* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

That is much better. It scales better as you progress feat or level wise, and rebalances everything so that most characters dedicated to twf will be the same in the long run.

I wish I was on the test server to try it out

[Persnoody]

Well then I must be lucky cause I rarely lag. What I'm saying is coming from personal experience, so you can't expect me to know your experiences.

[vVAnjilaVv]

. As I can see it, many builds that involve heavy multiclassing would be hurt by this.

Yeah...thus the new +5 heart of wood experiment (hint, hint) that is "limited time only" (pfft yeah right).

If inducing A into the game will increase the selling of B then why not right?

But I suppose I just have my tinfoil hat on too tight and deserve more neg rep for not being naive.

[Boromirs]

So if it's mainly Turbines engine then what they need to do is upgrade their hardware not nerf the game....or did I misinterpret?

No, the lag part is ancillary (for those 3 raids or whatever). The main component is the TWF nerf. Again, I really don't care if you nerf TWF as per second chart but if you don't nerf THF just as hard, me and my money are walking. And no Im not joking....market is currently FULL of awesome free MMOs, DDO is GOOD but not the only one out there.

[Chai]

BTW, if you guys are thinking about adding STWF you have to get rid of the 19 dex req or it'll just be a pointless feat for all (although it pretty much is except for possibly fighters due to extra feats).

I think 16 BAB makes it more pointless than 19 dex. Thats only 1/1 bab classes and multis who have more than 4 or more levels of a 1/1 BAB class.

the 3/4 classes lose their BAB at levels 1,5,9,13,17. So a rogue for instance would have to be 4 levels of fighter or ranger to get STWF.

[Neko-kun]

Aside: This thread has over a thousand replies. If the amount of rage keeps going at this rate, The Fury may be able to cross the planar boundaries and go PMS on Eberron.

And the marketplace tent was JUST finished being rebuilt

[vVAnjilaVv]

Not so much hardware as the code itself. However, editing such an integral part of DPS calculation so late into the development of the game is probably very difficult.

Ideally that's what they should do, but at that point, they might as well come out with DDO2.

Its the sad truth

Well I mean at this point why not just leave it alone then and give something a little extra to THF instead of inventing a ploy to incline multi-classers to buy their brand new "limited time only" +5 hearts...if multi-classers is who this is going to hurt the most it doesn't take rocket science nor too much common sense to realize why both of these things are announced on the same day

Not to mention the +2 loot table bribe....like they didn't know they would be announcing this today when they announced that yesterday.

[hydra_ex]

Well then I must be lucky cause I rarely lag. What I'm saying is coming from personal experience, so you can't expect me to know your experiences.

I have 3 exaplnations:
1. Luck.
2. Superbly good connection by pure chance.
3. Your groups need more DPS.

Note that DPS lag only happens occasionally in certain areas, including, but not limited to: End of a portal in the shroud, end of VoD, judge/jailer in ToD.

DPS lag almost always happens in several areas, including, but not limited to: Shroud part 4, ToD part 2, ToD part 3.

[k1ngp1n]

*Snip

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:

	Doublestrike	Bonus	Main hand	Off hand
No feats	0	20%	100%		20%
TWF		0	+20%	100%		40%
ITWF		0	+20%	100%		60%
GTWF		0	+20%	100%		80%
STWF		0	+20%	100%		100%
Tempest I	0	+10%	100%		90%
Tempest II	0	+10%	100%		100% 
Tempest III	+5%*	0	105%		100%
Wind IV		+10%	0	110%		80%
Zeal		+10%	0	110%		80%
Alacrity	+10%	0	110%		80%

* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

Close, but not quite yet there. Only 5% from Tempest 3? Make it 10. Drop STWF.

Rangers now attack 10% (20% offhand/2) faster than Fighter 20, which is offset by their higher strength and crit multi. Paladins via Zeal will be either (depending on smite mechanics). Fighters will be either, with a preference toward THF. Barbs will be THF. Rogues will be TWF.

Done.

[Chai]

Well I mean at this point why not just leave it alone then and give something a little extra to THF instead of inventing a ploy to incline multi-classers to buy their brand new "limited time only" +5 hearts...if multi-classers is who this is going to hurt the most it doesn't take rocket science nor too much common sense to realize why both of these things are announced on the same day

Not to mention the +2 loot table bribe....like they didn't know they would be announcing this today when they announced that yesterday.

That doesnt get rid of the lag that the TWFers are solely responsible for, due to being too uber.

/rolls eyes.