Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Visty]

I'm not sure I understand how wind IV, zeal, and alacrity will work with GTWF in this chart. When you say 'the bottom rows assume the person has GTWF' then does that mean the 80% off hand is only coming from the GTWF feat and the only bonus from say wind IV is 10% increase in main hand attacks and 10% chance to double strike?

If I understand that correctly a monk in wind IV with that proposal isn't nearly as far behind now as the would have been in the initial suggestion. If this actually does help lag then the above chart is much much better and something i could live with and have no regret about it.

You show a breakdown of tempest I, II, and III. How would wind I-III breakdown for this? Would it be the same as the insight bonuses to speed we have now? As per the entry in the compendium: 2.5% insight bonus per wind stance tier up to the 10% at wind IV.

The more I look at your chart the more I think I understand it and I must say I'm on board for this if it does help lag. It is a very reasonable nerf compared to the first proposal.

yes, windstance only gives a +10% doublestrike chance (and nothing to your mainhand, the 110% there is already includingthe doublestrike 10%)

[Chai]

Rogues are not supposed to be a feat starved class. Sadly, DDO does not allow them to pick a free feat at level 10, 13, 16 and 19 like in PnP.

Yeah they do, but its from the rogue feat list and not from the total list of all feats.

[Xyfiel]

I believe you are looking at this from the wrong angle.

1) Determine where dps lag is an issue. I don't see dps lag in 6 man groups, only in raids. Whenever there are more people, and more attacks(speed increases and twf), concentrated on one target, dps lag hits.

2) Develop simplest plan to avoid these situations. Since this mainly isolated to certain raid encounters, change the raid encounters to keep the same challenge, but avoiding the concentration on one target.

3) Avoid major game design changes that effect everyone, and further remove from core rules.

For instance, Shroud part 4. Lets pretend the encounter is designed like this:
Initial orthon/devil/bezekira fight.
Harry and gnolls spawn at same time.
Gnolls respawn after X seconds giving more regeneration, effectively increasing Harry's hps.
Harry's overall hps is lowered 20%.
Challenge level is comparable, more tactics are added by requiring some melee to be on gnoll duty, dps lag on single target is reduced.

Shroud part 5
Do not bring the lieutenants out until Harry is at a certain hps%, making a few melee need to go kill them. Their special effect auras would buff him so not killing them would not be an option.

Tower
Make it so not killing the orthons has a detrimental effect, but lower overall hps to compensate.

I would think changing a few encounters to give more tactics>removing build choices and changing current builds.

[ArkoHighStar]

Yeah they do, but its from the rogue feat list and not from the total list of all feats.

yes but this deviates from pnp rules which allows them to substitute a reg feat for one of the special feats.

[Cetus]

I agree globally on the fact that this setup is far too complex to do us any good, I'd rather deal with some dps lag but still know that i am happy with where my character stands instead of go through the entire headache of bi***ing and complaining.

Again, please leave THF untouched, it is just fine the way it is right now.

[7-day_Trial_Monkey]

Another thing...

This change makes obsolete many DPS characters, throws out years of greensteel grinding, *snip*

Nonsense. Saying that any change to twf dps makes them obsolete is just pure nonsense.

[underlordone]

Ok you whant to to fix lag.. Here it is.


1- Remove the confirm for crit make 20 a 20 let seeker just be for damage on a crit and the feat added damage

2- Lower hp of some of the mobs and give them heavy fort. SO now less damage going out but still going down just as fast.

3- Remove hamsters and get gerbils there a bit more faster

I do think those 2 would reduce the lag greatly. Granted I do solo a lot and heavy fort on the mobs that I am trying to kill would stink but if the hp was lowered to make up for it then we should not notice a diff at all.

[IronClan]

This. As it is, combat goes -way- too fast in DDO. When I play my monk, i honestly cannot read the damage numbers as they scroll, and I usually see the "killing blow" several -seconds- after the mob is dead. Its NOT because I lag, but because the already fast scrolling numbers cannot keep up at their current speed. Its honestly nuts. There's no reason I should be getting a billion attacks per second. Just slow down everything a notch.

We pretty much know this would work, because you can already counter DPS lags by slowing down when fighting in raids. Stop attacking for a few seconds, lag goes away.

Well I'm glad someone agrees, I don't think for server overhead reasons that it even needs to be very noticible... even globally lowering the "pulse rate" from 200 BPM to 175 BPM a little over a 10% global combat speed nerf would probalby gain a significant "cusion" of server power and bandwidth...

Basically it would be LESS than the difference between being hasted or not...

I personally would be ok with significantly more slow down than that... even 25% wouldn't bother me (although I'm sure some of the most zerg happy would bitterly complain and leave).

[Cetus]

I believe you are looking at this from the wrong angle.

1) Determine where dps lag is an issue. I don't see dps lag in 6 man groups, only in raids. Whenever there are more people, and more attacks(speed increases and twf), concentrated on one target, dps lag hits.

2) Develop simplest plan to avoid these situations. Since this mainly isolated to certain raid encounters, change the raid encounters to keep the same challenge, but avoiding the concentration on one target.

3) Avoid major game design changes that effect everyone, and further remove from core rules.

For instance, Shroud part 4. Lets pretend the encounter is designed like this:
Initial orthon/devil/bezekira fight.
Harry and gnolls spawn at same time.
Gnolls respawn after X seconds giving more regeneration, effectively increasing Harry's hps.
Harry's overall hps is lowered 20%.
Challenge level is comparable, more tactics are added by requiring some melee to be on gnoll duty, dps lag on single target is reduced.

Shroud part 5
Do not bring the lieutenants out until Harry is at a certain hps%, making a few melee need to go kill them. Their special effect auras would buff him so not killing them would not be an option.

Tower
Make it so not killing the orthons has a detrimental effect, but lower overall hps to compensate.

I would think changing a few encounters to give more tactics>removing build choices and changing current builds.

Agreed entirely

[Nevthial]

The proposed change will nerf weapon selection for several builds as well as number of "attacks" if the offhand has only a chance to "proc". For example: A multi-class character without the full line of TWF feats, say only TWF, currently has a 100% main/ 100% offhand chances for attacks. If said character was using a cursespewer in main and a paralyzer in offhand( or any combo designed for different and complementary effects) after this change they would actually have to fight longer to see the same result as prior to this. Will this not make combat less enjoyable, and/or increase server load per instance since the fights will last much longer? Or is this designed to force everyone to fight only with THF since it's become super popular with the F2P crowd and will be the only guaranteed method of gaining 100% attack(s) per swing without investing in all the TWF feats/ PRE's and certain classes? This change will pigeonhole builds even more than before, even if unintended.


I have a proposition to reduce lag that will allow the system to remain as it has for 3+ years : Raise the minimum system requirements for computers/ graphics cards to actually play. While I understand that players with low end systems may suffer, lag WILL diminish. The game is ALOT bigger than it was when DDO came out. Trying to compensate for archaic hardware on a players end by making massive changes to the combat mechanic isn't the course to take. I know people don't want to hear it, but slow machines on a player's end DO cause lag.

[Calebro]

2- Lower hp of some of the mobs and give them heavy fort. SO now less damage going out but still going down just as fast.

So nerf Rogues again instead? That's part of your answer?

[Quijonsith]

yes, windstance only gives a +10% doublestrike chance (and nothing to your mainhand, the 110% there is already includingthe doublestrike 10%)

Oh, I get it. So the 110% main hand includes the 10% double strike. That makes more sense. Thanks.

Wow so that means dark monks in wind 4 have a 10% chance to double ToD and shintao monks would have a 10% chance to double smite (if the smite works only on one strike like ToD does) or shintao would have 80% double smites if it lands like paladin smites do now with GTWF.

[Solace183]

Edit:
Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:

	Doublestrike	Bonus	Main hand	Off hand
No feats	0	20%	100%		20%
TWF		0	+20%	100%		40%
ITWF		0	+20%	100%		60%
GTWF		0	+20%	100%		80%
STWF		0	+20%	100%		100%
Tempest I	0	+10%	100%		90%
Tempest II	0	+10%	100%		100% 
Tempest III	+5%*	0	105%		100%
Wind IV		+10%	0	110%		80%
Zeal		+10%	0	110%		80%
Alacrity	+10%	0	110%		80%

* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

I'm just a little confused here (and forgive me if this has been answered... 48 pages is a bit too much to troll through), but if you're a ranger tempest 3 with STWF, does that equate to a 120% offhand chance and 105% mainhand? Or would the Tempest 3 STWF not see any benefit from the extra 20% at all?

If that's the case, having an offhand swing "faster" (or more, as it may be) seems odd... Is there a possibility of applying any bonus over 100% to the main hand? I.E 125% Main 100% Off? (Yes, I realize 25% double strike is probably a bit OPed, and am not proposing this change, just asking mechanic wise).

It's entirely possible there's something I'm missing here, but I wanted to be sure.


***EDIT***

After following the Dev Tracker, I realize that Tempest II "is" STWF...

It sort of seems like a Kensai TWF fighter would then be the "best" TWF character versus Tempest (1 free feat for a ranger PrE which fighters get each 2 levels...)...

Is this not counter-intuitive?

I would like to see. possibly, some benefits to the tempest tree to level the playing field a bit, if this turns out to be the case post number crunch.

[Brennie]

...so while a fighter will allways have stwf, hardly a paladin or rogue ...

Rogues won't be able to take it all unless they a) Multiclass atleast 6 levels of a full BaB class, in order to get BaB 16 by level 18 or b) Take 4 levels of a full BaB class, with fighter being the 4th at level 20 (Assuming STWF is a fighter bonus feat)

So rogues really do get the shaft (Though a 6 tempest ranger/12rogue could pull it off)

[Victor_1]

Cant say for sure till this goes on lamania, and I didnt all of post here.
But if this is going to reduce over all DPS performed by TWF character...

You SHOULD have re-balance HP on mob.
There is no point to keep all of these insane HP on endgame mobs if you reduce player's DPS ability.
Also, will this make huge DPS gap between say, TWF specialized ranger and semi-TWF focused character like warchanter?

I wouldn't mind nerf itself if its necessary to fix DPS lag.
But please, other than changes itself please consider way to maintain balances.
I really hate to see forum gets filled by "non-ranger/fighter/paladin TWF are gimped!" kind of posts.

[Calebro]

The proposed change will nerf weapon selection for several builds as well as number of "attacks" if the offhand has only a chance to "proc". For example: A multi-class character without the full line of TWF feats, say only TWF, currently has a 100% main/ 100% offhand chances for attacks. If said character was using a cursespewer in main and a paralyzer in offhand( or any combo designed for different and complementary effects) after this change they would actually have to fight longer to see the same result as prior to this. Will this not make combat less enjoyable, and/or increase server load per instance since the fights will last much longer? Or is this designed to force everyone to fight only with THF since it's become super popular with the F2P crowd and will be the only guaranteed method of gaining 100% attack(s) per swing without investing in all the TWF feats/ PRE's and certain classes? This change will pigeonhole builds even more than before, even if unintended.

False.
Currently, a toon with TWF alone does have 100%/100%, but only on his first attack. His following attacks are at 100%/0%, 100%/0% and 100%/0%
This changes them ALL to 100%/40%, which is a marked improvement over what he had previously.

Previously, the more TWF feats you had, the more bang you got for your buck.
Now, you'll still be better with more, but the difference is less so.

This will actually help TWFers that didn't complete the chain (although I'm not sure why you'd go TWF and NOT complete the chain....).

[Quijonsith]

I'm just a little confused here (and forgive me if this has been answered... 48 pages is a bit too much to troll through), but if you're a ranger tempest 3 with STWF, does that equate to a 120% offhand chance and 105% mainhand? Or would the Tempest 3 STWF not see any benefit from the extra 20% at all?

If that's the case, having an offhand swing "faster" (or more, as it may be) seems odd... Is there a possibility of applying any bonus over 100% to the main hand? I.E 125% Main 100% Off? (Yes, I realize 25% double strike is probably a bit OPed, and am not proposing this change, just asking mechanic wise).

It's entirely possible there's something I'm missing here, but I wanted to be sure.

I forgot to ask that myself. What will be the requirements of STWF and will tempests and monks be able to take it?

EDIT: I think I see that you have to have full BAB to get STWF, so pure monks probably won't qualify for it. I'm actually ok with this as it diversifies fighters from 3/4 BAB classes.

[Velexia]

First, monks aren't the fastest attackers. Rogues and Fighters both get 30% attack speed boosts which put them WAY ahead of monks much of the time. And while I don't know what a twitching acrobat on haste boost wearing madstones gets for attacks per second with a staff, I know it's really high. Regardless "DPS" lag happens with all barbarians in shroud, this clearly has NOTHING to do with monks OR TWF.

Second, as for optimization, a monk strikes a little over 4 attacks per second typically. The number of floating point operations, even unoptimized and in 3 dimensions to calculate if the two objects are in range for the strike to land can be counted on one hand. With the number of operations of a server being counted in the GFLOPS thinking that cutting down on a few operations per second will have any significant impact is misguided to say the least.

Third, it's not impacting the server the way you think it is. If you've both kited in and meleed in part 2 of ToD you'd know that being any distance away from the melee gives you a dramatically different experience than being on the platform with the melee group. It's not the instance choking. It's not the server choking.

Fourth, why the lag in part 1 of shroud going up the steps to the chests after the final, NW portal is broken? Everyone gets it. Maybe you should look at that instead of jumping on the "DPS lag" that, while a catchy term, is only something that people who don't understand software could believe is a problem.

BTW, fix the zone/character changing memory leak problem that is causing the majority of the game crashes. It's been pointed out to you in the forums for months now. Fix the bloody thing.

This.

If my Rogue, which is my favorite character, can no longer do her primary objective (DPS) I will find a better game.

[Brennie]

I'm just a little confused here (and forgive me if this has been answered... 48 pages is a bit too much to troll through), but if you're a ranger tempest 3 with STWF, does that equate to a 120% offhand chance and 105% mainhand? Or would the Tempest 3 STWF not see any benefit from the extra 20% at all?

If that's the case, having an offhand swing "faster" (or more, as it may be) seems odd... Is there a possibility of applying any bonus over 100% to the main hand? I.E 125% Main 100% Off? (Yes, I realize 25% double strike is probably a bit OPed, and am not proposing this change, just asking mechanic wise).

It's entirely possible there's something I'm missing here, but I wanted to be sure.

In theory, the offhand proc chance caps at 100%, meaning STWF on a teampest II ranger would be a complete waste. At the very least, I'm hoping tempest II enhancement locks out the STWF feat form being taken

[vVAnjilaVv]

The proposed change will nerf weapon selection for several builds as well as number of "attacks" if the offhand has only a chance to "proc". For example: A multi-class character without the full line of TWF feats, say only TWF, currently has a 100% main/ 100% offhand chances for attacks. If said character was using a cursespewer in main and a paralyzer in offhand( or any combo designed for different and complementary effects) after this change they would actually have to fight longer to see the same result as prior to this. Will this not make combat less enjoyable, and/or increase server load per instance since the fights will last much longer? Or is this designed to force everyone to fight only with THF since it's become super popular with the F2P crowd and will be the only guaranteed method of gaining 100% attack(s) per swing without investing in all the TWF feats/ PRE's and certain classes? This change will pigeonhole builds even more than before, even if unintended.


I have a proposition to reduce lag that will allow the system to remain as it has for 3+ years : Raise the minimum system requirements for computers/ graphics cards to actually play. While I understand that players with low end systems may suffer, lag WILL diminish. The game is ALOT bigger than it was when DDO came out. Trying to compensate for archaic hardware on a players end by making massive changes to the combat mechanic isn't the course to take. I know people don't want to hear it, but slow machines on a player's end DO cause lag.

Well...what I was trying to say was this doesn't seem like a "lag fix" but just another misleading name for a nerf to TWF. Great way to sell hearts of wood.