Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[mehlinda]

I haven't come close to reading all the posts in this thread but I am told by people who write code who also play DDO that 1's and 2's and zeros never change and that "DPS" lag is a myth..that in fact the lag is caused by all the motion and graphics concentrated in one area and having to be sent to 12 different computers is what causes the lag..in areas of raids where people are not all bunched up in one exact spot fighting I rarely experience any lag and the explanations I got make sense..to me this all seems like another form of re-balancing classes and such like removing barbarian crit rage and such.

I will refrain from real comment until I see the result of implementation..but I would like to know if Turbine will roll this back some or in part if it doesn't actually solve the lag issue.

[Chai]

I haven't come close to reading all the posts in this thread but I am told by people who write code who also play DDO that 1's and 2's and zeros never change and that "DPS" lag is a myth..that in fact the lag is caused by all the motion and graphics concentrated in one area and having to be sent to 12 different computers is what causes the lag..in areas of raids where people are not all bunched up in one exact spot fighting I rarely experience any lag and the explanations I got make sense..to me this all seems like another form of re-balancing classes and such like removing barbarian crit rage and such.

I will refrain from real comment until I see the result of implementation..but I would like to know if Turbine will roll this back some or in part if it doesn't actually solve the lag issue.

If this was true, the lag would not be happening in the same places at the same times for everyone. People play this game on a wide range of systems with a wide variety of video cards, and if what you are saying is correct, then we wouldnt all be lagging to the point where each one of us only sees our own toon attacking in raids, and only when the high melee DPS is being laid down.

[Batman78]

The fact that TWF is on par with THF at all is not like PnP, at least not 3.5, in PnP 3.5 Twf was FAR behind 2HF in terms of damage dealt per round and could only be optimal under stringent feat requirements, class choices AND basically fell to add on damage that went to both hands or was per round damage and on all attacks. The fact that 2hf is better is more pnp than anything that is represented right now and you're kidding yourself if "twitch" fighting has any basis in pnp, show me any feat or fighting style where an extra attack is present when you "jump" to the side, any Wotc commissioned feat at all, show it to me. The less attacks at higher levels by offhand also is on par with pnp because the to hit bonus becomes very small in PnP even with add on to hit components if fighting with two weapons. That was a major complaint in 3.5 and was changed in 4th edition, so all the bring it back to PnP arguments need to stop, because abstractly this change is closer than it is now.

[hydra_ex]

The fact that TWF is on par with THF at all is not like PnP, at least not 3.5, in PnP 3.5 Twf was FAR behind 2HF in terms of damage dealt per round and could only be optimal under stringent feat requirements, class choices AND basically fell to add on damage that went to both hands or was per round damage and on all attacks. The fact that 2hf is better is more pnp than anything that is represented right now and you're kidding yourself if "twitch" fighting has any basis in pnp, show me any feat or fighting style where an extra attack is present when you "jump" to the side, any Wotc commissioned feat at all, show it to me. The less attacks at higher levels by offhand also is on par with pnp because the to hit bonus becomes very small in PnP even with add on to hit components if fighting with two weapons. That was a major complaint in 3.5 and was changed in 4th edition, so all the bring it back to PnP arguments need to stop, because abstractly this change is closer than it is now.

DDO is not PnP. Your argument is invalid.

Just to add in my opinion, I'm against STWF, but the new numbers seem much better to me; twitch THF gets a nerf too, and so does TWF, although not to the same extent.

By my rough calculations, you should expect to loose between under 10% to slightly over 15% of your current DPS, depending on your class.

Things which decrease your DPS loss, and put you closer to the 10% end:

• OH attacks dealing less damage than MH attacks.
• Lack of special abilities. Less complicated tends to make DPS loss less.

Things which increase your DPS loss, and put you closer to the 15% end:

• Haste boost. You gain more OH attacks with haste boost if you have more OH attacks.
• More equal MH and OH damage (poor rogues).
• Smites, and other abilities which can hit twice. Less chance for double smites = bad.

[Yshkabibble]

I don't know if this has been mentioned but in order to restrict the number of calculations made how about reducing the number of rolls for weapon damage by assigning an average value. That is to say:

A weapon that does d6 of a certain type of damage now does 3.5 when you are in a raid zone.

You could even use that for the base weapon damage or use an average for weapons that proc on crits. This could reduce the computations that are going on when you have so many weapons flying. Sure you would not get the spectacular results but things on average should still work out.

[Gercho]

The need of stwf will be a further nerf for feat starved classes, so while a fighter will allways have stwf, hardly a paladin or rogue will be able to afford it, even if they could cover other prerequisites... and you are still nerfing paladins and fighters twf (zeal and alacrity are half as effective as used to be).

BTW is funny that shade in every thread in the forum brags how thf fb is the highest dps in the game, and in this thread justifies nerfing twf to bring it to the level of thf, but says that thf should be left untouched

[Cetus]

The need of stwf will be a further nerf for feat starved classes, so while a fighter will allways have stwf, hardly a paladin or rogue will be able to afford it, even if they could cover other prerequisites... and you are still nerfing paladins and fighters twf (zeal and alacrity are half as effective as used to be).

BTW is funny that shade in every thread in the forum brags how thf fb is the highest dps in the game, and in this thread justifies nerfing twf to bring it to the level of thf, but says that thf should be left untouched

I am a strong proponent of leaving the THF system untouched, the problem with lag is the surplus if information coming from TWF that the server can't handle. THF have nothing to do with this, just change the TWF combat system to be more of a THF mechanism in terms of the doublestrike implementation, and let THF be...

[geoffhanna]

Yet...

How much of the problem is the physics detection?

Couldn't you achieve much of the same result by eliminating the second offhand detection (as you are already suggesting) and assuming that the offhand is still in range?

And not change anything else?

[Victor_1]

Cant say for sure till this goes on lamania, and I didnt all of post here.
But if this is going to reduce over all DPS performed by TWF character...

You SHOULD have re-balance HP on mob.
There is no point to keep all of these insane HP on endgame mobs if you reduce player's DPS ability.
Also, will this make huge DPS gap between say, TWF specialized ranger and semi-TWF focused character like warchanter?

I wouldn't mind nerf itself if its necessary to fix DPS lag.
But please, other than changes itself please consider way to maintain balances.
I really hate to see forum gets filled by "non-ranger/fighter/paladin TWF are gimped!" kind of posts.

[SisAmethyst]

Yet...

How much of the problem is the physics detection?

Compared to just a damage roll, for example [1d6+5] like:

considering seconds of current time divided by ten would give a more or less random value between 0,0 and 5,9:
round(0,0..5,9 + 1) + 5

the collision detection is much more complex like

* get x1:y1:z1 coordinates of mob
* get x2:y2:z2 coordinates of player
* get distance between this coordinates = square root of ( (x2-x1)²+(y2-y1)²+(z2-z1)² )
* check if weapon is long enough and distance is short enough to reach the mob at all
* also check if there is a wall between both coordinates (even more complex then the distance)

However this is as said only a subset of things that produce lag. Another one is for example the actual data that is shared between Client and Server.

[Shmuel]

Most of my fighter-type characters are twf.

I do understand the need to make changes to mechanics to reduce lag, and will not be horribly angry about that per say BUT:

I do think, and always have thought, that when changes are made to game mechanics then some attempt to allow players who have invested significant time and effort in building toons and acquiring gear based on the mechanics being changed to adapt to the changes. In this case, for example, a free LR token and, most importantly, an effort to implement greensteel deconstructions should mitigate these issues for most players.

[Cetus]

I agree globally on the fact that this setup is far too complex to do us any good, I'd rather deal with some dps lag but still know that i am happy with where my character stands instead of go through the entire headache of bi***ing and complaining.

Again, please leave THF untouched, it is just fine the way it is right now.

[underlordone]

Ok you whant to to fix lag.. Here it is.


1- Remove the confirm for crit make 20 a 20 let seeker just be for damage on a crit and the feat added damage

2- Lower hp of some of the mobs and give them heavy fort. SO now less damage going out but still going down just as fast.

3- Remove hamsters and get gerbils there a bit more faster

I do think those 2 would reduce the lag greatly. Granted I do solo a lot and heavy fort on the mobs that I am trying to kill would stink but if the hp was lowered to make up for it then we should not notice a diff at all.

[Calebro]

2- Lower hp of some of the mobs and give them heavy fort. SO now less damage going out but still going down just as fast.

So nerf Rogues again instead? That's part of your answer?

[Brennie]

...so while a fighter will allways have stwf, hardly a paladin or rogue ...

Rogues won't be able to take it all unless they a) Multiclass atleast 6 levels of a full BaB class, in order to get BaB 16 by level 18 or b) Take 4 levels of a full BaB class, with fighter being the 4th at level 20 (Assuming STWF is a fighter bonus feat)

So rogues really do get the shaft (Though a 6 tempest ranger/12rogue could pull it off)

[Batman78]

DDO is not PnP. Your argument is invalid.

Just to add in my opinion, I'm against STWF, but the new numbers seem much better to me; twitch THF gets a nerf too, and so does TWF, although not to the same extent.

By my rough calculations, you should expect to loose between under 10% to slightly over 15% of your current DPS, depending on your class.

Things which decrease your DPS loss, and put you closer to the 10% end:

• OH attacks dealing less damage than MH attacks.
• Lack of special abilities. Less complicated tends to make DPS loss less.

Things which increase your DPS loss, and put you closer to the 15% end:

• Haste boost. You gain more OH attacks with haste boost if you have more OH attacks.
• More equal MH and OH damage (poor rogues).
• Smites, and other abilities which can hit twice. Less chance for double smites = bad.

Where in my post did I say ddo was pnp and where did I argue against or for something other than that twitch style has no basis in pnp which is what people were saying it did? Come on, show me where in my post Im arguing something differently, Im all open to your wild and imaginitive interpretation.

[hydra_ex]

Where in my post did I say ddo was pnp and where did I argue against or for something other than that twitch style has no basis in pnp which is what people were saying it did? Come on, show me where in my post Im arguing something differently, Im all open to your wild and imaginitive interpretation.

People said that is has a basis in pnp? I might have missed some posts, since they come off so fast, and out of context, you seemed to me, at least, to be arguing that twitch should be nerfed because it has no basis in pnp. I responded under that assumption.

If you wanted to address people who thought it did, then it was my mistake.

[Nevthial]

The proposed change will nerf weapon selection for several builds as well as number of "attacks" if the offhand has only a chance to "proc". For example: A multi-class character without the full line of TWF feats, say only TWF, currently has a 100% main/ 100% offhand chances for attacks. If said character was using a cursespewer in main and a paralyzer in offhand( or any combo designed for different and complementary effects) after this change they would actually have to fight longer to see the same result as prior to this. Will this not make combat less enjoyable, and/or increase server load per instance since the fights will last much longer? Or is this designed to force everyone to fight only with THF since it's become super popular with the F2P crowd and will be the only guaranteed method of gaining 100% attack(s) per swing without investing in all the TWF feats/ PRE's and certain classes? This change will pigeonhole builds even more than before, even if unintended.


I have a proposition to reduce lag that will allow the system to remain as it has for 3+ years : Raise the minimum system requirements for computers/ graphics cards to actually play. While I understand that players with low end systems may suffer, lag WILL diminish. The game is ALOT bigger than it was when DDO came out. Trying to compensate for archaic hardware on a players end by making massive changes to the combat mechanic isn't the course to take. I know people don't want to hear it, but slow machines on a player's end DO cause lag.

[Calebro]

The proposed change will nerf weapon selection for several builds as well as number of "attacks" if the offhand has only a chance to "proc". For example: A multi-class character without the full line of TWF feats, say only TWF, currently has a 100% main/ 100% offhand chances for attacks. If said character was using a cursespewer in main and a paralyzer in offhand( or any combo designed for different and complementary effects) after this change they would actually have to fight longer to see the same result as prior to this. Will this not make combat less enjoyable, and/or increase server load per instance since the fights will last much longer? Or is this designed to force everyone to fight only with THF since it's become super popular with the F2P crowd and will be the only guaranteed method of gaining 100% attack(s) per swing without investing in all the TWF feats/ PRE's and certain classes? This change will pigeonhole builds even more than before, even if unintended.

False.
Currently, a toon with TWF alone does have 100%/100%, but only on his first attack. His following attacks are at 100%/0%, 100%/0% and 100%/0%
This changes them ALL to 100%/40%, which is a marked improvement over what he had previously.

Previously, the more TWF feats you had, the more bang you got for your buck.
Now, you'll still be better with more, but the difference is less so.

This will actually help TWFers that didn't complete the chain (although I'm not sure why you'd go TWF and NOT complete the chain....).

[Nevthial]

False.
Currently, a toon with TWF alone does have 100%/100%, but only on his first attack. His following attacks are at 100%/0%, 100%/0% and 100%/0%
This changes them ALL to 100%/40%, which is a marked improvement over what he had previously.

Previously, the more TWF feats you had, the more bang you got for your buck.
Now, you'll still be better with more, but the difference is less so.

This will actually help TWFers that didn't complete the chain (although I'm not sure why you'd go TWF and NOT complete the chain....).

Because it is currently a guaranteed 100%/100% with only TWF. Changing something guaranteed to something with only a chance, hurts a character using complementary weapons unless they invest alot heavier into TWF feats and/or certain classes. The first attack sequence is where some builds gain their power. Melee casters, ect. can be hurt badly, thus causing an even further pigeonhole towards playing only certain types of characters.