Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Delacroix21]

I want to see both "instinctive feedback" as well as actual gameplay feedback once it his Lamannia. I can't say when Lamannia will be going live with these changes (that's beyond my control), but I figured better to get this out early.


Correct.

This is still a dps NERF to MONKS, when compared to rangers and other TWF characters. Why does tempest outhit monks in wind stance iv? They used to be tied at +10% stackable haste (the extra attack at tempest 3 hardly warrants a 25% boost over monks!).


Monk unarmed is allready the lowest dps there is! This honestly needs to be adjusted!


In addition... tying the "off-hand" procs to wind stance alone is a HORRIBLE HORRIBLE HORRIBLE idea! Right now Wind Stance is only 10% (when hasted) faster then the other stances, with this change it will be WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY ahead of the other stances! Just make wind stance a 25% Enhancement bonus to attack speed, so (vs haste) it only remains 10% above the other stances.

[Xyfiel]

So this is how we increase ranged dps?

[Angelus_dead]

the way it currently looks to be laid out will leave TWF at lower levels virtually useless if 4 in 5 off hand attacks are guaranteed to miss

Hi, TWF is already virtually useless at low levels for that reason.

new players gut feelings on TWF will be that it's not worth it and are less likely to persue the option.

New players do not generally notice, partly because they don't have enough experience with how much damage they could be getting from other styles.

[jcdy10101010]

death to the warchanter

[Chai]

not to flame, but wouldn't it be a 'less stupid' approach to have the client 'figure' the damage, then upload it as a set value? As it is all the damage is calculated server side, then spat out at all the players, with each 'part' of the damage displayed separately, (Which is why turning off those options WILL reduce the lag, u just do not 'process' it)

Just make clients get damage from each 'proc' gather them up and send it to the server, which sends it back to display to everyone, might not be pretty, but seeing '100 damage' might be better than '5 slash, 15 acid, 30 shock--- etc'

How many ways can we figure out how to exploit client side damage calcs?

We got people who figured out how to "spaz" and "twitch" to increase their attack speed animation at the cost of AB which doesnt even matter when well geared enough. I think there should be an office pool to see how long it would take for someone to exploit this type of thing counting from the minute its implemented.

By the way, we are measuring in picaseconds for the pool. 5 bucks gets you in.

[QuantumFX]

So Eladrin,

Will the unarmed animation be scaled back?

Fun thought: Could Damage action boosts be converted to a +# to damage and a similar +% to doublestrikes? (Ex. Barb Damage Boost IV becomes +5 Damage/+5% chance to proc a doublestrike.)

[TiranBlade]

While I will say, I do like the Idea of the System and it's function (Almost the same system basis for Everquest for Dual Wield, except DW was a skill set the higher the skill the more your off hand would proc). This is fundamentaly game changing and in a way, while I won't be one of them, it will cause many people to leave or quit.

Also, from what I can see Superior Two Weapon Fighting is going to function just like Perfect Two Weapon Fighting from Epic Level Handbook/Complete Warrior giving you that 4th off hand attack to your character, or for those who know it from Neverwinter Nights 2 where it gives you more attacks as you gain a higher number of attacks in a round.

I honestly think Superior is an excelent Solution. Because in the Pen and Paper game you only get a Max of 3 Off Hand Attacks pre-Epic. Giving you a feat to gain a forth is and excellent solution.

My issue though is, I don't like the Idea of the game straying too far away from the Pen and Paper game.

Question 1 for the Devs: If you can code a bypass into the coding which gave you a 100% chance to proc on a certin attack sequence while having a certain feat wouldn't you not have to have the physics check?

Question 2 for the Devs: Even if you recode the game to a proc squence to remove the physics check, in order to proc wouldn't the game still need to make physics check to determine if you have a weapon in your off hand in order for the game to register the ability to gain a proc roll?

Example: Main Hand Attack End(go to Determine Off Hand Proc) -> Determine Off Hand Proc(Physics Check Off Hand Weapon(If (TRUE: Then go to Proc Possible),(NO: Then go to Off Hand End)-> Proc Possible -> Proc Roll(Roll % and Add Mod)

I know this isn't a completely accurate account of how your coding works but it seems that you would still have to make the check, also I haven't done coding in about 4 or so years so I may be out of line in this assumption, correct me if I am please.

[mehlinda]

I haven't come close to reading all the posts in this thread but I am told by people who write code who also play DDO that 1's and 2's and zeros never change and that "DPS" lag is a myth..that in fact the lag is caused by all the motion and graphics concentrated in one area and having to be sent to 12 different computers is what causes the lag..in areas of raids where people are not all bunched up in one exact spot fighting I rarely experience any lag and the explanations I got make sense..to me this all seems like another form of re-balancing classes and such like removing barbarian crit rage and such.

I will refrain from real comment until I see the result of implementation..but I would like to know if Turbine will roll this back some or in part if it doesn't actually solve the lag issue.

[Chai]

I haven't come close to reading all the posts in this thread but I am told by people who write code who also play DDO that 1's and 2's and zeros never change and that "DPS" lag is a myth..that in fact the lag is caused by all the motion and graphics concentrated in one area and having to be sent to 12 different computers is what causes the lag..in areas of raids where people are not all bunched up in one exact spot fighting I rarely experience any lag and the explanations I got make sense..to me this all seems like another form of re-balancing classes and such like removing barbarian crit rage and such.

I will refrain from real comment until I see the result of implementation..but I would like to know if Turbine will roll this back some or in part if it doesn't actually solve the lag issue.

If this was true, the lag would not be happening in the same places at the same times for everyone. People play this game on a wide range of systems with a wide variety of video cards, and if what you are saying is correct, then we wouldnt all be lagging to the point where each one of us only sees our own toon attacking in raids, and only when the high melee DPS is being laid down.

[Coldin]

    Doublestrike    Bonus    Main hand    Off hand
No feats    0    20%    100%        20%
TWF        0    +20%    100%        40%
ITWF        0    +20%    100%        60%
GTWF        0    +20%    100%        80%
STWF        0    +20%    100%        100%
Tempest I    0    +10%    100%        90%
Tempest II    0    +10%    100%        100% 
Tempest III    +5%*    0    105%        100%
Wind IV        +10%    0    110%        80%
Zeal        +10%    0    110%        80%
Alacrity    +10%    0    110%        80%

* Only when wielding two weapons.

More problems:

Currently a level 20 tempest ranger has +10% attack speed and +1 extra offhand a attack, while a level 20 fighter has just a +10% extra attack speed. So a 20 ranger should, in theory, be one-offhand-attack's worth better at TWF than a 20 fighter.

Level 20 Fighter with TWF, ITWF, GTWF, STWF = 10% double strike/100% offhand proc

Level 20 Ranger with Tempest III = 5% double strike/100% offhand proc.

As you can see, the fighter is a BETTER TWF than the ranger! This, i think, is a problem

Other comparisons -

20 Ranger Arcane Archer with STWF (1 feat investment, easily attainble with archer dex high enough to meet preq) = 0% double strike/100% offhand (Only 5% double strike behind a tempest ranger, losing only sheild bonus and to hit bonus, which not many people care about in late game anyway... but with pretty spectacular archer abilities to back them up, and no wasting 4 feats to get tempest III)

20 Rogue (Or other 3/4 BaB class) with TWF, ITWF, GTWF = 0% double strike/80% offhand proc (Fighters and rogues used to have the same offhand attack amount, fighters can now get potentially 20% more)

EDIT - Suggestion: Abandon STWF. Let all non-ranger tempests cap their offhand proc rate at 80%. This will bring fighters back in line with rogues, will seperate Arcane Archers melee from Tempest Melee, and will make Tempest the best Two Weapon Fighters again.

*shrug* No reason why a fighter can't be a better TWF than a ranger. Rangers get a bunch of other nice things like spells and favored enemies.

Rogues are a bit screwed in all of this. Though I'd rather see rogues improved in damage in other ways, like boosting sneak attack as a whole to really turn them into burst DPS characters.

[Chai]

While I will say, I do like the Idea of the System and it's function (Almost the same system basis for Everquest for Dual Wield, except DW was a skill set the higher the skill the more your off hand would proc). This is fundamentaly game changing and in a way, while I won't be one of them, it will cause many people to leave or quit.

No one will leave or quit, or if they do it will be a small quantity. This is proven by all the other feedback threads with large amounts of disagreement, where people stayed. Read: WoP nerf, and F2P implementation. Lots of threats of leaving the game, and very few keeping the promise.

[lord_of_rage]

My question with STWF is what will the dex requirement be? I remeber when it was proposed originally it was a 19 base dex. Will that still be the case? Or will you reduce it to a 17 or 18 dex. I know most people have been building a 15 dex with a +2 tome for itwf and gtwf. If you do add stwf I request that you keep it to an 18 dex max. It will allow most of the player base to hit it with a simple +3 tome vs having to by a respec to aquire the feat, and reduce other stats. Paladins who are already extremely stat intensive would become even more so with a 19 base dex requirement.

As a paladin player I was worried. The new numbers dont look as bad. It just means I dont take extend and take STWF instead. Im cool with that but with a 4 feat requirement please dont impose a daunting dex requirement on top of the high costs that twf already is. If you do keep the latest proposed numbers and make stwf more easily aquired I will be more than happy to keep my favorite characters twf. Thank you.

[Angelus_dead]

I can leave it out, but thought that including it as an option would be beneficial.

That's like presenting TWF characters with a choice between a nerf to their damage or to their feat slots. It begs the question of if nerfing them was a good idea in the first place.

EDIT:
Look at how reducing offhand DPS and adding a feat to get it back would effect the various classes:
Tempest Ranger: Hardly noticeable.
Fighter: Low effect, because there weren't enough combat feats to start with. But he must reincarnate for more dex.
Barbarian: Harsh, because it's tough to open a feat slot.
Paladin: Tougher still, because raising dex is harder for this MAD class.
Rogue, Bard, Monk, Cleric, FVS: They're hardest hit, because even if they could somehow open a feat slot they don't meet the BAB.

TWF using Rogues, Bards, Clerics, Favs, and Monks are already underpowered offensively compared to characters like Fighter and Tempest Ranger. It would not make sense to nerf them harder than the others.

[TiranBlade]

No one will leave or quit, or if they do it will be a small quantity. This is proven by all the other feedback threads with large amounts of disagreement, where people stayed. Read: WoP nerf, and F2P implementation. Lots of threats of leaving the game, and very few keeping the promise.

Ah, wasn't sure or not, I have always heard storys about people who left a game over such a fundamental change.

Also, as someone who has played the Tempest build possibilities in v.3.5, would it not be appropriate to add a Fighter Tempest PrE to the fighter instead of Implementing the STWF feat another possible approach?

[Batman78]

The fact that TWF is on par with THF at all is not like PnP, at least not 3.5, in PnP 3.5 Twf was FAR behind 2HF in terms of damage dealt per round and could only be optimal under stringent feat requirements, class choices AND basically fell to add on damage that went to both hands or was per round damage and on all attacks. The fact that 2hf is better is more pnp than anything that is represented right now and you're kidding yourself if "twitch" fighting has any basis in pnp, show me any feat or fighting style where an extra attack is present when you "jump" to the side, any Wotc commissioned feat at all, show it to me. The less attacks at higher levels by offhand also is on par with pnp because the to hit bonus becomes very small in PnP even with add on to hit components if fighting with two weapons. That was a major complaint in 3.5 and was changed in 4th edition, so all the bring it back to PnP arguments need to stop, because abstractly this change is closer than it is now.

[Axelza]

This would ruin my build that Ive been working so hard on leveling , I have a 3monk 17rog acrobat.

Would it ruin my build totaly ?

[Delacroix21]

As part of this "Combat Feedback" will we see an Improvement in Unarmed attacks while moving?


As it stands now, you can literally be pressed right up to a monster while moving and still see NO DIE ROLLS when attacking unarmed. Will this be addressed?

[hydra_ex]

The fact that TWF is on par with THF at all is not like PnP, at least not 3.5, in PnP 3.5 Twf was FAR behind 2HF in terms of damage dealt per round and could only be optimal under stringent feat requirements, class choices AND basically fell to add on damage that went to both hands or was per round damage and on all attacks. The fact that 2hf is better is more pnp than anything that is represented right now and you're kidding yourself if "twitch" fighting has any basis in pnp, show me any feat or fighting style where an extra attack is present when you "jump" to the side, any Wotc commissioned feat at all, show it to me. The less attacks at higher levels by offhand also is on par with pnp because the to hit bonus becomes very small in PnP even with add on to hit components if fighting with two weapons. That was a major complaint in 3.5 and was changed in 4th edition, so all the bring it back to PnP arguments need to stop, because abstractly this change is closer than it is now.

DDO is not PnP. Your argument is invalid.

Just to add in my opinion, I'm against STWF, but the new numbers seem much better to me; twitch THF gets a nerf too, and so does TWF, although not to the same extent.

By my rough calculations, you should expect to loose between under 10% to slightly over 15% of your current DPS, depending on your class.

Things which decrease your DPS loss, and put you closer to the 10% end:

• OH attacks dealing less damage than MH attacks.
• Lack of special abilities. Less complicated tends to make DPS loss less.

Things which increase your DPS loss, and put you closer to the 15% end:

• Haste boost. You gain more OH attacks with haste boost if you have more OH attacks.
• More equal MH and OH damage (poor rogues).
• Smites, and other abilities which can hit twice. Less chance for double smites = bad.

[Chai]

My question with STWF is what will the dex requirement be? I remeber when it was proposed originally it was a 19 base dex. Will that still be the case? Or will you reduce it to a 17 or 18 dex. I know most people have been building a 15 dex with a +2 tome for itwf and gtwf. If you do add stwf I request that you keep it to an 18 dex max. It will allow most of the player base to hit it with a simple +3 tome vs having to by a respec to aquire the feat, and reduce other stats. Paladins who are already extremely stat intensive would become even more so with a 19 base dex requirement.

As a paladin player I was worried. The new numbers dont look as bad. It just means I dont take extend and take STWF instead. Im cool with that but with a 4 feat requirement please dont impose a daunting dex requirement on top of the high costs that twf already is. If you do keep the latest proposed numbers and make stwf more easily aquired I will be more than happy to keep my favorite characters twf. Thank you.

Its 19 base dex in the book game, as well as 16 BAB, which means it will be a level 18 feat for just about everyone taking it except those with fighter levels. Even though monks get their flurry to even off their BAB to 20, this does not qualify them for feats as they are still 3/4, so no STWF for rogues monks cleric FvS and bards.

In the book game, its an epic feat, so those classes would have 16 BAB at level 22.

[eeeeeee]

Why must we take things that are black and white and make them grey, we have endured the lag and we shall continue to endure until you do this mod and cause people who have spend months looting and making min2s whos builds now lose to rngrs. can we refund our gs ill settle for just scales