Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Souless]

[QUOTE=Shade;2990775]Haven't seen anyone talk about this yet:
So the goal of these changes is both to reduce the dps lag caused by twf/monk.. And to reduce TWF dps a bit to balance it more towards THF.

Vs 5, 6,7 or even more players with THF in the same area and no twf.. You will almost never see any lag.

So the problem is twf. Almost exclusively. Sure THF causes calculations too, but ones that the servers have proven to be able to keep up with for the most part, so no nerfs are needed.

Yet..

You thross in a direct nerf to THF as well?!?!

I don't see the purpose of this. If your trying to bring TWF dps down cloase to THF, why are you also nerfing THF?

Why directly nerf GTHF's ability to deal damage to many enemies while moving?

So it's a nerf. Not one that will help dps lag, not one that will help balance, and not one that anyone asked for. Why do it?

If this were the case, why are so many player clammering after the epic sos?

If TWF was so much better that THF. Why are endgame players building barbs WF fvs for the epic sos.

I have heard of crit numbers that are just crazy commin off the sos.

Also I have seen the lag come with multiple THF beating on the dragon. additionally, she blows fire if a player dc's as well. I can't say that the THF's were alone as I was in there fighting also and i have a TWF build. What I can say is against the djinn's on the bases i have seen more THF pull agro then TWF's. so what does that tell you about dps?

The Bytcher~

Souless/Xbow/Valice/Tazzor/Vampir/Spectyr/Xindao/Richgirl

[Cortho]

Why do such a complicated fix, when all combat could be slowed just a little to fix everything.

[Seelowe]

Paladins can cast Zeal well before 20th level and get the added effect of possibly 3 smites proccing from 1 initial one(TWF).

please do not even try to make a positive example out of paladins. dual wielding paladins are being severly gimped by this change as these builds are pretty much built around the dual smiting/divine sacrifice damage. they got 2 smite numbers out of 1 smite "charge". now, instead of 100% extra smite you get a minimal chance at a 2nd main hit and a severely nerfed chance at the previously automatic 2nd smite in your attack sequence.
p.s.: you need 14 lvls of paladin for your 1st lvl 4 spell btw

[Borror0]

Tempest III +5%*

I agree with the others who have spoken against adding STWF. The number of feat slots available are just too few for this to be a good idea.

With that said, if you are going to add STWF, shouldn't Tempest III get STWF for free? As far as I can remember, that has always have been the design goal behind Tempest III and it even lasted after STWf got axes. "The additional attacks gained at tier III are identical to what we originally had planned for (the not-in-the-game) Superior Two Weapon Fighting," as you said last year. Otherwise, wouldn't low-dexterity rangers get hit pretty hard?

[Gobbothegreen]

30 pages of thread. brain not contain it all :P

but, i belive that a lot of th TWF will get a healty nerf to lower numbers wile te ACTUAL TWF classes get that boost (Rangers ffs!)

if anythingwouldnt rangers be the ones hit hardest by the nerf?

110% main 137.5% off hand down to 105%/100%

Vs for a fighter

110%main 110% off hand to 110%/80%

[Shade]

Arent you like, the champion of "twitching" which is moving slightly in order to increase the attack rate animation at the cost of AB which doesnt even matter because youre so well geared?

I think you CAN see why.

I am not anymore so then any other good player. It is a simple fighting style that thousands of players can easily perform.

I also do not see the correlation. None of these changes will change how I play.

Infact the double-strike chance that fighters will get, and that warchanters will eventually give will only further increase the gap in using that style vs not using it.

What this nerf is exactly as I explained, THF AOE DPS. And there is no reason for it. Read my post more carefully.

If Eladrin's purpose was to reduce single target dps while moving (what your referring too) He could of done it in a much more direct way that would really upset me and many many other players - The devs clearly understand the fun of the combat systems active style and benefit from moving, to consider taking full advantage of taht an "exploit" its just plain foolish.

What he's proposing doesn't effect that much at all.

With the epic sword of shadows complete lack of bonus effects, and rather minimal damage glancing blows do, using the stepping attack will STILL provide an increase to overall DPS. So again, this is not what you think it is.

What it does nerf for me:
Nerfs my ability to play a strong tank in a scenario with allot of enemies. Since I do not use the intimdate skill much at all.. I'm left wiht no fast way to gather agro on a large group of enemies. I considered this a important and fair ability unique to THF players, and I don't see a fair reason to nerf it.

[RobbinB]

Nice thoughts, but it's just not accurate. There really are no AC or DR implications. The problem with S&B is that for most characters, equipping a shield wouldn't grant any increased survivability.

A couple of intelligent moves by Turbine to make shields more worthwhile in non-turtle mode and an address of the narrow 'ac window' problems could change this.
Once again... it's a false balance. Just like between the 18/1/1 and the 20 barbarian. People say it's ok for 18/1/1s to do less damage than the barbarian, because they are more survivable.

Strange...what I heard is that you can't do damage if you're dead.

Just like people say that less DPS is ok because shields increase survivability. But they only do that in extremely specific situations. If people were using a shield before... they may have caught up a little... but if they were using a shield before they'd all but given up on meaningful DPS anyway.

Less dps is ok if it grants increased survivability. Just not 50% dps...that's too extreme. Many raids don't require maximal dps - controlled dps is far more important. And if you need max dps to succeed at non-raid questing, then either you suck extremely hard or you are limiting yourself to running elite amrath and reavers refuge content solo - in which case I bow to your uberness.

[tokenghost]

Ok. Spent an hour on a post with a lot of quotes and responses in it ... then tried to preview it and it all disappeared... so this one is going to be shorter.

Eladrin, thanks for asking for feedback, hopefully you can actually listen to what we're saying...

Here's what I think based on what I've seen in the thread.

1. This is a nerf to 2wf wrapped up with a "lag fix" bow. I don't like that at all. If you're going to nerf something, give us a little courtesy spit and do it.

2. I haven't seen anyone saying "don't change the physics!" but I have to agree with everyone that has said "don't change the physics AND 2wf at the same time!" Change the physics. If it reduces lag even a little, count it as a success and move on to another step.

3. I'd rather see babysteps toward a better game rather than a headlong off a cliff that takes 2/3rd of the toons in the game into a respec or reroll descision.

4. The 2wf change affects EVERYTHING. Greensteel crafting, feat decisions, build options, levelling, game balance, DT choices, party composition, even ranged combat, and probably more things I can't think of quickly... I'd say that's one drastic change to have any kind of narrow time window[really want to quote that post but can't find it atm].

[edit - knew I would forget something]
5. Condensing the damage rolls to 1d6 roll for all d6 dmg, etc. sounds to me like another one of those little fixes that could be done without affecting anything else except the lag.

So, to sum up, my response to this:

Please, take your time and do it right, and please don't do this all in one go as it was proposed.

[donotdirect1]

Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:

	Doublestrike	Bonus	Main hand	Off hand
No feats	0	20%	100%		20%
TWF		0	+20%	100%		40%
ITWF		0	+20%	100%		60%
GTWF		0	+20%	100%		80%
STWF		0	+20%	100%		100%
Tempest I	0	+10%	100%		90%
Tempest II	0	+10%	100%		100% 
Tempest III	+5%*	0	105%		100%
Wind IV		+10%	0	110%		80%
Zeal		+10%	0	110%		80%
Alacrity	+10%	0	110%		80%

* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

An alternate chart had the TWF not giving a bonus to off-hand proc rate, but increasing each tier to 25% - so it would have been 25%/25%/50%/75%/100%

Am I for adding yet another feat requirement to two weapon fighting JUST for it to be without missing attacks.

No. Phantom attacks you just miss out on because of what exactly? If you are saying that you are "mysteriously missing because of no opportunity" you are basically saying "all mobs now have partial concealment, but only from your off hand."

You wanted it to slow down lag? You're really just making the nerf hit lower level characters, making it harder to level, while many people are TRing. This, in my opinion, is going to hurt your base players.

Making less rolls and checks? That's a no brainer. As I mentioned, we do that in PnP all the time. Making static damage totals for the attack chain works far better, and is far more in line with PnP. Not missed opportunity for attacks for no reason.

Misses are for displacement effects, armor class, to hit, and misc modifiers. That's the core, why add in a new miss feature? There is enough working in combat.

Have lag? Get static.

Simplify the numbers and it'll do less work.

Think of things in rounds, like it ought to be.

[Boromirs]

I don't think STWF should be added. It's only going to make the TWF population cry more to have better DPS.

Thats the Nerf though. From what Im reading about Eladrin's modified numbers is that essentially with STWF (I assume this is Supreme Two weapon Fighting - wasn't here for that) it would minimize the considerable nerfage to total of 210% rather then the current 220% (given zeal or alacrity). This is still heavy in terms of a nerf, and paladins will still be screwed (feat starved class) however, if the THF weapon changes (about no glancing blows during movement) get implemented AND I see SOME lag mitigation I say it's a fair trade.

Also, I say it's a fair trade because it brings BOTH THF and TWF closer in-line with S&B. If S&B gets a good boost I would say close to perfection in terms of balance.

To Eladrin,

Still work with the numbers but I think you just cooled A LOT of people's heads from crazy insanity to muted rage.

[The_Wolf]

Ok, I'm fine with the lag fix. Of course, we need to take these issues separately... the lag fix has nothing to do with the DPS of TWF. Turbine can link the weapons to the main attack and get rid of the second physics collision without changing anything. Damage rolls could be done using an average number instead of random if they wanted to get rid of all those rolls.

Instead, they feel DPS of TWF is overpowered... now, I have a hard time buying this to some degree. My main character is an assassin build 18/2 rogue/pally. I certainly do a good deal of damage. But I pale in comparison to characters that can solo Raids or Epics. What's more overpowered? A TWF who does 25% more damage than a THF or someone that solos Epics?

Now... onto this damage reduction. If Turbine is set on it, I did like an earlier post I read about factoring Dex into the chance of having a secondary attack. Another thought - Why not factor in weapon size as well? Logically, it would seem a dagger would have an easier time "finding an opening" than someone dual-wielding longswords.

That way, the people who choose to dual-wield can still do so, by giving up some damage in the form of having to sacrifice weapon damage.

I also think people should have the opportunity to respec/reroll whatever if these changes go through. Many have spent 100s of hours grinding for the perfect weapons only to have those off-hand weapons half as useful now. There should be compensation (Maybe even the mentioned ability to "de-combine" GS).

[Gobbothegreen]

I am not anymore so then any other good player. It is a simple fighting style that thousands of plays can easily perform.

I also do not see the corrolation. None of these changes will change how I play.

Infact the doublestrike chance warchanters will evnetually give will only further increase the gap in using that style vs not using it.

What this nerf is exactly as I explained, THF AOE DPS. And there is no reason for it. Read my post more carefully.

If Eladrin's purpose was to reduce single target dps while moving (what your refering too) He could of done it in a much more direct way that would really upset me and many many other players - The devs clearly understand the fun of the combat systems active style and benefit from moving, to consider taking full advantage of taht an "exploit" its just plain foolish.

What he's proposing doesn't effect that much at all.

With the epic sword of shadows complete lack of bonus effects, and rather minimal damage glancing blows do, using the stepping attack will STILL provide an increase to overall DPS. So again, this is not what you think it is.

What it does nerf for me:
Nerfs my ability to play a strong tank in a scenario with allot of enemies. Since I do not use the intimdate skill much at all.. I'm left wiht no fast way to gather agro on a large group of enemies. I considered this a important and fair ability unique to THF players, and I don't see a fair reason to nerf it.

So they nerfed twitching? whats the big deal, not like we have been seeing it comign for a while, im surprised it took this long for the big nerf.

So if you want to do that Aoe damage dont twitch.

[Eladrin]

I agree with the others who have spoken against adding STWF. The number of feat slots available are just too few for this to be a good idea.

I can leave it out, but thought that including it as an option would be beneficial.

With that said, if you are going to add STWF, shouldn't Tempest III get STWF for free? As far as I can remember, that has always have been the design goal behind Tempest III and it even lasted after STWf got axes. "The additional attacks gained at tier III are identical to what we originally had planned for (the not-in-the-game) Superior Two Weapon Fighting," as you said last year. Otherwise, wouldn't low-dexterity rangers get hit pretty hard?

Tempest II's already have the benefits of STWF in the proposed change, as they reach 100% off hand attacks.

[Khelden]

Thats the Nerf though. From what Im reading about Eladrin's modified numbers is that essentially with STWF (I assume this is Supreme Two weapon Fighting - wasn't here for that) it would minimize the considerable nerfage to total of 210% rather then the current 220% (given zeal or alacrity). This is still heavy in terms of a nerf, and paladins will still be screwed (feat starved class) however, if the THF weapon changes (about no glancing blows during movement) get implemented AND I see SOME lag mitigation I say it's a fair trade.

Also, I say it's a fair trade because it brings BOTH THF and TWF closer in-line with S&B. If S&B gets a good boost I would say close to perfection in terms of balance.

To Eladrin,

Still work with the numbers but I think you just cooled A LOT of people's heads from crazy insanity to muted rage.

The problem is that THF would have 3 feats and TWF would have 4 feats... Considering how many class are feat starved, it would beat down a good deal of possible builds and would give an excuse for TWF to cry for a DPS INCREASE [not stay like they are, but an increase from now].

THF and TWF should be the same with some minor difference... For exemple, THF could do more DPS [slightly], while TWF would be better for effects proc.

[Vynnt]

The new numbers are a lot better, imo.

I would still consider putting the 10% alacrity bonuses for doublestrike on off hand as well as main hand. It makes more sense. Before, 10% alacrity gave a speed bonus to both hands, now its only giving a damage bonus to one hand.

I somewhat support STWF. This balances weapon finesse more to match the damage of str based twf.

[vVAnjilaVv]

Hey.....well I think it should be obvious why this is being done right.......nerf a couple playstyles which makes people reconsider their builds and maybe opt for buying hearts of wood.

Look now the brand new +5 hearts of wood (which I am actually quite happy about trying...but besides that) are being offered for a limited time!....yeah right just like the +2 tomes were.....Turbine will do this, see how many people will buy the new hearts of wood and see how many people will turn their multiclass split into a pure build because it will be more advantageous and more appealing now that they can change 5 levels in one shot.

Yes....it is nearing the tinfoil hat with this theory...but come on....love how all of this happens to get announced on the same day with a little buttering up of the loot tables the day before to make us less annoyed.

I would bet in a few months or less the +5 hearts will become permanent and they will need to think of a new "lag reducer" to sell a new item that is stated as limited time only but becomes permanent a short time later.

And I do still recall someone officially stating the store was not going to have a direct impact on gameplay.

[R0cksteady]

I'm on board with the static damage change instead. Wouldn't effect overall DPS, and would reduce the lag. Just give us the average of current damage output. Anything 1d6 would do 3.5 average damage. Just round I guess, up or down I'm sure wouldn't make a big difference compared to the change this topic is about. Should reduce lag quite a bit, without unbalancing classes.

[Calebro]

Considering the fairly radical nature of the changes, and the timeliness with which the Compendium gets updated , might I suggest that you post a sticky in the Combat Forum once all of this gets nailed down?

[Chai]

I am not anymore so then any other good player. It is a simple fighting style that thousands of players can easily perform.

I also do not see the correlation. None of these changes will change how I play.

Infact the double-strike chance that fighters will get, and that warchanters will eventually give will only further increase the gap in using that style vs not using it.

What this nerf is exactly as I explained, THF AOE DPS. And there is no reason for it. Read my post more carefully.

If Eladrin's purpose was to reduce single target dps while moving (what your referring too) He could of done it in a much more direct way that would really upset me and many many other players - The devs clearly understand the fun of the combat systems active style and benefit from moving, to consider taking full advantage of taht an "exploit" its just plain foolish.

What he's proposing doesn't effect that much at all.

With the epic sword of shadows complete lack of bonus effects, and rather minimal damage glancing blows do, using the stepping attack will STILL provide an increase to overall DPS. So again, this is not what you think it is.

What it does nerf for me:
Nerfs my ability to play a strong tank in a scenario with allot of enemies. Since I do not use the intimdate skill much at all.. I'm left wiht no fast way to gather agro on a large group of enemies. I considered this a important and fair ability unique to THF players, and I don't see a fair reason to nerf it.

The correlation is that it was not an intended play style. I play a high end barbarian, and understand what it is versus regular attack animation. I have also seen the numbers crunched in your threads.

[Naash]

please do not even try to make a positive example out of paladins. dual wielding paladins are being severly gimped by this change as these builds are pretty much built around the dual smiting/divine sacrifice damage. they got 2 smite numbers out of 1 smite "charge". now, instead of 100% extra smite you get a minimal chance at a 2nd main hit and a severely nerfed chance at the previously automatic 2nd smite in your attack sequence.
p.s.: you need 14 lvls of paladin for your 1st lvl 4 spell btw

Was well aware of how this would affect twf Pallys(have one)but was simply making the point that Fighters(have 3) have to wait until the capstone to get a little dps back(before Eladrin's amended proposal).
p.s.:14 levels of paladin is well before 20 levels of fighter(especially when tr'ing).