Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[sephiroth1084]

We're considering modifications to the bonuses the feats grant, and possibly even bringing back STWF.

I don't know if including another feat to take in a chain that is already somewhat costly, and is getting nerfed, is the way to go. For one, paladins are already ending up getting shafted to a degree here, while adding another feat that needs taking just to shore up these changes would hurt them, and rogues, bards and combat-casters (whether arcane or divine), much more so than rangers, monks or fighters.

[Visty]

considering this thread im afraid of going to bed today (germany, 23:52 here)
as once i wake up this thread will have like 50 more pages...and reading all those wont be possible.....aaargh

€dit: lol a whole new page while typing this post and its not even a long one

[Siskel]

Is the DPS lag problem why we are not seeing new raids? If this was fixed, would that open the possibility for more raids being introduced. I am beginning to suspect that the lag issue is holding back content. Could be the reason why we are seeing less new high level content as DPS appears to be an end game issue.

[IronClan]

Oh, you mean the last GOOD edition of D&D

Or AD&D

[Khelden]

That's untrue. I have plenty of characters that go THF because it's the best DPS option available with limited investment.

For example... when making a favored soul, I long considered going human.. or elf... or warforged. I eventually went warforged in part because their favored weapon, greatsword, was far more useful than a longsword or scimitar without 3 feats spent.

In another example, i had a non-ranger archer. He used falchions because you simply can't afford to take the entire bow line and the entire TWF line.

In short, THF requires nothing in investment, and still gives a good amount of DPS. So THF has those uses.

Secondly, you can invest in THF in the same was as you invest in TWF... and it becomes more powerful. The highest DPS tanks in the game are all currently THF. They tend to have higher HP totals due to less stat investment.

Tone the martyrdom complex down a notch.

Hum, TWF line and THF line are the same. OTWF is not a critical feat at all.

While you are right about the fact that THF provide good amount of DPS with low investment, this also applies to TWF. I could try THF Fighter with a Greensteel GA along with a TWF Fighter with 1 Greensteel Khopesh and 1 Holy Khopesh of PG +3, my TWF would deliver roughly the same DPS than my THF did. Thing is, to improve my THF, weapon-wise, I had to get an epic SoS, while on my TWF, I could just get another GS weapon, which would improve my DPS again.

I'd like you to prove what you are saying, that a fully geared THF will outDPS a fully geared TWF. From all the DPS ladders which have been made and that I looked at, it has never been the case.

However, I wish to keep one of your point here: THF line is less of a must-have than TWF line, and this should not be. THF and TWF lines should BOTH be a must-have for any real melee class [depending on your focus, TWF or THF]. Not having one of these feat line should severely harm the melee capacities of a character.

[donblas]

I wonder what happens in situations like with my Rogue/ranger where the off-hand is 4 better to hit than the main hand?

[Batman78]

everyone grumbling has no idea how its going to affect anything, because it has not been implemented yet. The only thing you have is a vague idea about a nebulous proposition that has yet to be tested or analyzed on any basis other than paper scribbles so far. You've no idea of regulatory confines or dictations from higher executives that may inhibit the overall ability and options present to the developers, developers are not the ones who chose how to implement things in this game, executives are. You want to grumble about better servers and more options? maybe before berating the already hassled consumer relations staff, you should sit down and write a letter to the new WB executive in charge of their digital games? If getting a new server and fixing this easy was an option, I believe they would do it, why would someone take a harder approach than they had to? If this is a difficult thing to do, its because they are being given limited options and yet are STILL trying to make the customers happy, its not because they dislike us or have some vendetta, that's just foolish philosophy.

[Creeper]

Ah yes here we are at the turning point.

All the quantity based moaning on the forums about fixing the lag, and being peeved that nothing is being done about it. Now when something is being done about it, people are gnashing their teeth at it before they have even had a taste. The level of backpedaling is so huge, you could generate a years worth of electricity from the breeze it creates alone.

This issue has been cried about on open forums since the Shroud came out, and the moaning hasnt stopped. And now, we are justifying leaving everything alone because its just 3 raids that are affected?

Wasnt it 3 raids or less that have been affected, like, this entire time? The entire time, 2.5 years or so, up until present, people have been going off their chains on the forums spinning epic tales about how the lag is so hampering the game.

But now, when they propose their fix, its just a mere paltry 3 raids, all because its been determined that the level of DPS calcs that have to be made is a large contributing factor in the lag.

The people who ranted, moaned, and complained about the lag the entire time made your beds, now you get to lie in them. This is what happens when mountains are made from molehills. The fix is just another mountain.

I am reserving my judgement for when this is tested. Maybe I will have the same opinion as you, and maybe I will not. Until then, heres your nerfed TWF.

But Eladrin has asked that we give feedback, so everyone is. Now, if you want to reserve judgement until it's tested then do it, but don't come on here and belittle those who want to tackle this BEFORE testing, as we have been asked.

This:

The people who ranted, moaned, and complained about the lag the entire time made your beds, now you get to lie in them.

No, they don't get to lie in them. They/We all want DPS lag to be fixed. They/We all want it to be fixed in a way that isn't game breaking. So no one has made any "bed" yet, let alone slept in it. That is what we are trying to do here. Give feedback on the proposed "lag fix" that we asked for (and don't regret asking for because it needs to be fixed) so that it ends up being a positive change for the game.

What exactly do you know, before a single test has been run on the changes?

Nothing.

Answer: No more or less than you do.

[Razor19]

It is has been said, but let me say it again, you will infuriate a lot of your high level gamers. The very group that has invested the time, MONEY and effort into building those uber toons with all their uber gear causing all the calculation overhead. These are the people who are your core VIP and premium accounts that spend money on getting all the bling to make themselves just that little bit more uber. It seems to me this is just like shooting yourself in the foot and saying it is a good thing.

TWF is better than THF, currently, less so since the THF updates in the last mod, but it also takes a many more resources (feats, stats, AP enhancement) to get there. This change will basically cause all new builds to go THF by default. Why bother with TWF if the best you can hope for is to equal the dps of THF?

I suggest that the easiest way to overcome your lag issues is upgrade your hardware and/or your telecom. I suspect the increased lag is more related to the 1 million new players you have making computation demands on the servers rather than a fault in the game mechanics.

[RobbinB]

So along with the "nerf" coming to TWF how about adding a 10% double-strike chance for a fighter's shield if they have the improved shield bash feat. Maybe even a 5% base chance of shield double strike all the time.

3 cheers for sword-and-board.

(I didn't read through all the replies to this thread, in case someone else already suggested something similar.)

[GottDDO]

I've spent three years spec-ing out all my TWF toons, I have five of them. I have do not have the time to re-spec; I'm a VIP and always have been a paying customer. If this happens and my toons are significantly less effective it will make the game less fun for me, and there will be a very good chance that I will leave the game. Think twice about this; strongly urge you to find another way to fix this issue.
Sincerely

This pretty much sums up what a lot of people are saying.

Do this then, Turbine: Boost all dps except for TWF and increase mob hp.


Of course, that won't work. All the TWFers will be upset that they aren't doing more damage than everyone else and will whine anyway.

[timewalker]

personally i do not like the look of these new changes, its seems to me like its moving away from the *close/real time approximation* to D&D rules to a completely new system. That and this game is known for a great combat system, so i would hate to see that changed.

although personally i have been saying for a while now that melee dmg needs major nurfing....as do mob hp's. hell if you cut melee dmg down but a percentage say 50% *just a number, need to find the right one that works* and then cut monster hp down a equal amount that would bring ranged and spell nuking back into play without really changing melee % damage at all, your eSOS swing would still take the same chunk out of the same monster. the real trick then would be to find the percentage that would not put spell/ranged ahead of melee as they should be a bit behind due to safety of ranged just not the fraction of damage they are now.

i play a TR'ed monk as my main and even though it would hurt me i would like to see a bit of melee nurfing, as long as the overinflated hps are nurfed too. but im not sure i like this idea as a "lag fix"

[Sharzade]

Ah yes here we are at the turning point.

All the quantity based moaning on the forums about fixing the lag, and being peeved that nothing is being done about it. Now when something is being done about it, people are gnashing their teeth at it before they have even had a taste. The level of backpedaling is so huge, you could generate a years worth of electricity from the breeze it creates alone.

This issue has been cried about on open forums since the Shroud came out, and the moaning hasnt stopped. And now, we are justifying leaving everything alone because its just 3 raids that are affected?

Wasnt it 3 raids or less that have been affected, like, this entire time? The entire time, 2.5 years or so, up until present, people have been going off their chains on the forums spinning epic tales about how the lag is so hampering the game.

But now, when they propose their fix, its just a mere paltry 3 raids, all because its been determined that the level of DPS calcs that have to be made is a large contributing factor in the lag.

The people who ranted, moaned, and complained about the lag the entire time made your beds, now you get to lie in them. This is what happens when mountains are made from molehills. The fix is just another mountain.

I am reserving my judgement for when this is tested. Maybe I will have the same opinion as you, and maybe I will not. Until then, heres your nerfed TWF.

Very nicely put. I agree, all that carrying on about OMG fix the lag has finally paid off - Turbine heard us loud and clear - and we're getting the fix either this way or via a redo of Greensteel. It seems that we can't have our cake and eat it too.

Speaking just for myself, I've got 6 highbie characters that TWF, and I'm okay with adapting to the change.

By fixing lag, we're getting something we asked for. Maybe they'll put a bit of sugar on it somehow, just to help the medicine go down. Though fixing lag is pretty sweet!

Sharzei

[rosu]

One issue I have is that pure fighters finally got some love with regards to dps. Now with that heavy reduction to the capstone...hey a pure fighter should be able to crank out the numbers so why only a 55% on the off hand. Seems to me that a capstone should grant a little better enhancement. IMO pure fighters should be just under barbs in terms of THF dps should they choose to spec them and should be just under tempests for TWF dps. 30% is a huge difference.

[Calebro]

It's a nice thought, but I don't really see how.

Or are you really thinking that people are going to say... hey, we just had our DPS slashed 22%... may as well make it 45% and gain +7 AC!

Before:
S&B: 110% DPS with capstone
TWF: 220% with capstone

Now:
S&B: 110% with capstone
TWF: 165% with capstone

Yes, I think the DR and AC implications make this viable once again.

Maybe the shield proficiency feats need to add free shield attacks like the proposed change to twf adds a chance to proc your offhand attack.

Add this, and BANG! S&B just became completely viable with these changes, while keeping TWF and THF still good choices.

[Syntax42]

I read the first post and didn't look for any math in further posts.

This suggestion seems like it won't solve anything, other than to nerf two-weapon fighting DPS.

Here is my simplified logic...

Current live TWF swing (assuming Greater TWF feat and player is in range):
1. Check range on main hand.
2. Perform to-hit roll.
3. If miss, skip to 4. Otherwise, calculate damage.
4. In .15 seconds, check range on off-hand.
5. Perform to-hit roll.
6. If miss, end calculations. Otherwise, calculate damage.

Proposed system for TWF:
1. Check range on main hand.
2. Perform to-hit roll.
3. If miss, skip to 4. Otherwise, calculate damage.
4. Perform off-hand roll chance. End calculations if roll failed.
5. Perform to-hit roll.
6. If miss, end calculations. Otherwise, calculate damage.


Looks like about the same amount of processing to me. They just replaced step 4 with a roll chance instead of range check. This proposed system for TWF doesn't seem like it will solve any lag issues.

Instead, try putting some processing tasks on the client instead of the server. For example, range-checks, line-of-sight, and field-of-view could all be done by the clients. This would decrease server load while increasing player enjoyment of the experience, instead of frustrating them with constant misses while chasing a fleeing enemy. Periodic anti-cheat checks done by the server could detect extreme erroneous actions performed by players using disallowed software.

[Angelus_dead]

We're considering modifications to the bonuses the feats grant, and possibly even bringing back STWF.

Please don't bring STWF as a feat (unless you add more feat slots too). If it's a class-independent enhancement that uses GTWF as a prereq that could be OK.

Also acceptable would be STWF as a bonus feature of GTWF that activates when you have BAB 16 and either Dex 19 or Ranger16. (Although you'd have to grant a free Heart of Wood to non-ranger TWF characters whose dex is insufficient).

Forcing TWF characters to devote yet another feat slot to adequate use of their weapon style is boring and removes opportunities for interesting customizations.

[Shiler]

I dont understand tbh.

As for now its quite easy.
You have normal attack speed 100%.

If you have no TWF feats and you have equiped two weapons you have standard penalties to attack, and you attack speed is 100%.
if you other TWF feats your attack speed remains the same anonly penalties are lwoered + you get attack speed in 3rd, 2nd, and first attack sequence [ TWF, GTW, ITW w/e order it is]
If you were tempest ranger with tod set you got +1 attack in 3rd attack sequence [ total 2/2/3 = 7]

If your hasted you get +15% enhancement attack speed.
If your tempest ranger I you get +10% competence attack speed.
If your 20th fighter you get +10% Competence attack speed.
If you have zeal you get 10% sacred attack speed.
If your in Wind stance you get X enchanted/X insight % to attack speed?
If you use attack speed enchantments you get 15/20/25/30% attack speed.

After the change.. it's.. i dont get it;/

fighter 20, Zeal and Tempest ranger get some kind of chance to get double attack from main hand, everyone useing 2 weapons get 20% chance to get off hand attack proc with goes up with enchantments/feats.

Questions:
Will haste give bigger chance to get double attack from main hand/and off hand or not?

why you just wont change it to a nice multiplier to dmg.
Change all attack speed bonuses to one number by which the first number in the dmg sequence [ the weapon dice+str] are multipied.
SO hasted fighter with capstone would get (1,1 * 1,15) times the dmg from his weapons.
ETC.
OR just making weapon proc numbers static?
[ I can live with pure good or shroud weapons doing only set amount of dmg [ like 4 on each d6 now]


+ From what i understand now it will be one roll on main hand for the % to do second time the damage, then roll on off hand proc chance + dmg.
So now its like that :
THF barb hasted gets 115 attack and dmg calcs+ grazing hits
TWF tempest 3 ranger hasted in same time gets 125 main/125 off hand attack and dmg calcs

After your changes: [ assuming 15% haste will go as 15% main hand double hit chance]
THF will get 100 attack speed and dmg calculations. + 100 calcs of double hit +15 attack and dmg calcs for double hit?
And TWF tempest ranger 3 hasted:
100 attack and dmg calcs of main hand + 100 proc chnce for double attack from main hand + 25 calcs of attack and dmg from main hand double attack + 100 calculations on off hand proc chance + 85 calculations on attack and dmg from off hand ?

I really dont get why you want more rolls.
[ Or i totaly dont understand whats going on;./]

[dragonofsteel2]

Im not for that changes at all, but all those ppl saying that "twf is not much dps more", "twf needs more stats investment", "twf needs 3 feats" etc make me laugh. 80% of all melee chars in game r twf, and they all should be saints, they r real martyrs, almost no benefits but they still roll twf chars. Its ridiculous.
In what would u put that few more stat points ? More wis for rangers perhaps ? Or maybe more int and wis for rogues ? Please, we all know that those points r needed in dex anyway, for to-hit with bow, for reflex saves. Stop fool yourselves that u make any sacrifice and u got only "litlle more dps"
im all against that changes, its a nerf for THF aswell (btw try to make twitch attack with such lag), i just cant stand hypocrisy and/or stupidity.

Hmm reality been playing and leveling my THF not my TWF anymore. Plan and simple he does more damage, is IT just the SOS that makes it so, maybe. Though do enjoy the idea of twf. Second I do not like the change because it nerfing the damage of TWF, I do not believe its not a issue this second. Last if really was lag they should do whole sale nerf, this way you can readjust all dps. If THF needs little push give to them, but give use real numbers not these freaking math gensis on forum pages. I am sorry, I like to see the true in game hard numbers for once. Might some of these people be close or right, yeah. Though all can be wrong, because they do not understand all the rule sets Trubine is using to calc the dps.

Prove to me this will fix the lag in a way that is worth even doing the nerf. Sorry I do not blindly trust anyone. I want hardcore proof it does what you say. Been promise lag fix after lag fix and all that happens is the lag gets worse. When do you lose trust?

80% or TWF is this base on fact are a number you pull out of your bum? Not saying its false or true but back your statments up. (I do not believe that the dps between two weapon fighting builds and two hand fighting builds is that much different as of now)

Can that change sure, depends on weapons and other things coming out, but as of know the best weapon in game is a THF weapon. Til that changes they are king of dps. Is TWF better dps with a weapon that similar, maybe might be way better in fact. Though with these conditions that exist at this moment "NO TWF IS WEAKER", so dam right THF is better choose at the moment.

[R0cksteady]

Will people who spent time and resources making GS weapons get their ingredients back? I'd like to make something useful for my cleric instead of keeping useless Kopeshes on my fighter.