Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[J1NG]

Just a quick question about Lamannia points and testing.

Clearly there are several parts that needs testing.

Quest areas: Shroud and Tower of Despair

So that's two seperate packs worth of points needed. If that's close to live DDO shop numbers, that's around 1100+ DDO points there.

Classes needed: Monk and Favored Soul

Races needed: Drow and Warforged

That's another 2500+ odd points too. Will the Lamannia points being given out for testing cover these? Since we can't buy points in Lamannia and no other way to get points.

We need some way to get in to try out these changes that are being proposed. I know we've been told officially there will be points given out to help test, but some of us can test several things, or group together with others to test several things. But we can't if our characters are locked out of the quest or our characters themselves.

I just want to know will we be able to help with testing? Or be token support testing in this?

ie, we had 12500 people helping us with testing this. But only 750 was able to actually get into the right configuration of the group like on live to test out if the same lag is there, or if the dps we do is ok, or if the healers can take the now extended battles.

J1NG

[Aesop]

no more feats please, a 7 feat char will need 4 feats just to get full twf??? sounds like too much really...

There we go lets switch to the number of Feats the Pathfinder variant gets (every odd level gets a feat)

Aesop

[Razcar]

But now, when they propose their fix, its just a mere paltry 3 raids, all because its been determined that the level of DPS calcs that have to be made is a large contributing factor in the lag.

The people who ranted, moaned, and complained about the lag the entire time made your beds, now you get to lie in them. This is what happens when mountains are made from molehills. The fix is just another mountain.

Then nerf DPS for all. Do not single out TWF. We had reached a point where TWF and THF were fairly balanced. If DPS for TWF has to be brought down 20%, bring down DPS for THF as well, by the same amount (which would actually boost S&B 20% indirectly). That should mean even less lag.

This just kills so many builds and absolutely trashes rogues and monks.

[bobbryan2]

Huh, I don't know about other servers, but on Cannith I've never [well, rarely] run epics with another THF, with reason: they are bad.

I play THF and knows that I am on the wrong side, but I LIKE to play THF.

If TWF can't accept to be on the same level than THF, it's their problems. Unless you're a barbarian, THF is gimped. Many people plays this way, they accepted to be less effective than TWF but STILL play THF because they like it. Now, if both are even, it's a blessing.

That's untrue. I have plenty of characters that go THF because it's the best DPS option available with limited investment.

For example... when making a favored soul, I long considered going human.. or elf... or warforged. I eventually went warforged in part because their favored weapon, greatsword, was far more useful than a longsword or scimitar without 3 feats spent.

In another example, i had a non-ranger archer. He used falchions because you simply can't afford to take the entire bow line and the entire TWF line.

In short, THF requires nothing in investment, and still gives a good amount of DPS. So THF has those uses.

Secondly, you can invest in THF in the same was as you invest in TWF... and it becomes more powerful. The highest DPS tanks in the game are all currently THF. They tend to have higher HP totals due to less stat investment.

Tone the martyrdom complex down a notch.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Wow been reading this thread on my phone since I left work 4 hours ago and finally reached the end! Do I get a reward?

More constructive feedback coming when I can reach a real keyboard tonight...

Garth

[Imnisc]

I wish any changes would move ddo closer to d&d instead of introducing even more untested systems.

One thing that jumps out is wont this be a very heavy nerf to rogue damage?
Sneak attack hasnt been adjusted for the inflated mob hp except for the weak enhancements, this will reduce that even further.

Well you asked for feedback, it might be better in the long run tho to have a vision for your game and the balls to follow it rather than some weak compromise.

[Calebro]

I think one main thing to consider is that this will bring S&B users out of uselessness.

TWF was king. Then ESoS came along. Nowhere did S&B users get enough help to matter. This change would allow that. Dropping TWF a bit brings it closer in line. Fixing ESoS (as we all assume MUST happen) will help as well. But with these changes the disaprities between S&B users will be felt much less, making them viable once again.

[bobbryan2]

I think one main thing to consider is that this will bring S&B users out of uselessness.

TWF was king. Then ESoS came along. Nowhere did S&B users get enough help to matter. This change would allow that. Dropping TWF a bit brings it closer in line. Fixing ESoS (as we all assume MUST happen) will help as well. But with these changes the disaprities between S&B users will be felt much less, making them viable once again.

It's a nice thought, but I don't really see how.

Or are you really thinking that people are going to say... hey, we just had our DPS slashed 22%... may as well make it 45% and gain +7 AC!

[Darconeious]

ok im no rocket scientist here but the key words here are "piggy back"
if the devs are doing this because of dps lag and the current chain of attacks check both main @ .15 sec and check off hand @ .15 secs, in conjunction with attack speed , this developes a lag time. what they say.
so what i read was there going to piggy back the off hand attacks , with the main hand attacks. well in computer tearms if you make something a slave / ( piggy back) , to the main source / ( main hand )
then it atoumaticly comes on / or proc a 2nd hand attack, thuss making a 2nd hand attack auto. + damage. what they should have said or should do , is make it so your off hand attacks have a 20% chance NOT to make a off hand attack
(D20 ) / ( 1 d 5 chance not to proc an off hand attack ) seems more simple an effective, and you keep the TWF feats the same. making off hand attacks +80%
of the time and with those odds could be more like 90% of the time .
so in review no more off hand check = dps lag
auto off hand attacks+damage
with a 20% chance not to off hand atttack
keep everything else the same

[KingOfCheese]

I think one main thing to consider is that this will bring S&B users out of uselessness.

TWF was king. Then ESoS came along. Nowhere did S&B users get enough help to matter. This change would allow that. Dropping TWF a bit brings it closer in line. Fixing ESoS (as we all assume MUST happen) will help as well. But with these changes the disaprities between S&B users will be felt much less, making them viable once again.

They just need to make an epic shield that does 800 damage per shield bash

[Bracosius]

We're considering modifications to the bonuses the feats grant, and possibly even bringing back STWF.

Make STWF necessary for TWF to be viable and then count the cash as everyone has to reincarnate to make their character viable.

I could definitly see this happening, seems to fit perfectly with Turbine's current business direction.

[Siskel]

I think one main thing to consider is that this will bring S&B users out of uselessness.

TWF was king. Then ESoS came along. Nowhere did S&B users get enough help to matter. This change would allow that. Dropping TWF a bit brings it closer in line. Fixing ESoS (as we all assume MUST happen) will help as well. But with these changes the disaprities between S&B users will be felt much less, making them viable once again.

Maybe the shield proficiency feats need to add free shield attacks like the proposed change to twf adds a chance to proc your offhand attack.

[difasja]

I've spent three years spec-ing out all my TWF toons, I have five of them. I have do not have the time to re-spec; I'm a VIP and always have been a paying customer. If this happens and my toons are significantly less effective it will make the game less fun for me, and there will be a very good chance that I will leave the game. Think twice about this; strongly urge you to find another way to fix this issue.
Sincerely

[Cortho]

Before you make such sweeping changes to combat styles, you might want to add the ability to deconstruct green steel weapons(to recover used ingredients), I have around 10-11 20th lvl melee types that may need to change from twf to thf depending on how this works out, with nearly 500 shroud runs, dont want to run 500 more to re-equip them again. thx

[Razcar]

For a fighter with TWF, based on PnP, and the feats/enhancements in DDO, it appears I should get 7 attacks per cycle. These are 4 Base, +1 for fighting with two weapons (not the TWF feat), +1 for ITWF, and +1 for GTWF. If you are a Tempest 3, you get one additional attack when dual wielding.

Just to check, I ran my level 18 Tempest into the Vale to find some test subjects. By all appearances, he still only attacks 7 times per cycle.

Forget about PnP when it comes to attack sequence in DDO. We don't have rounds here. You do four attacks in a cycle before you start the animation again. When you use TWF, you add off-hand "hooks" that are not visible in the animation.

With GTWF you add a total of four hooks to the four animated attacks in the chain. With Tempest III you add a total of five hooks. So in an animation sequence on your character you would do four visible animations, but nine actual attacks.

[R0cksteady]

Make STWF necessary for TWF to be viable and then count the cash as everyone has to reincarnate to make their character viable.

I could definitly see this happening, seems to fit perfectly with Turbine's current business direction.

Well, they're already going to have everyone reincarnating their fighters, since they were barely able to match the DPS of a tempest or a barb in the first place. imagine the profits, 4 of those new +5 heart of woods per fighter.

[TiranBlade]

First of all, if I am reading the functions of this correctly between Double Attack and Two Weapon Fighting it turns into a fuction like this.

Four attacks per round normally after a certin base attack amount, then double attack gives you a chance to gain a second attack per attack you would normally get, then you throw in two weapon fighting and you get a proc chance for each of those main attacks so.

So here is my question.

If you have a chance for both Double Attacks and Off Weapon Attacks then it is possible to have up to 16 attacks in a single attack sequence?

If this where ture then it would actually be a boon to melee combatants of all types. Sure there is an initial nerf, but as you gain in ability it become a lot more.
_________________________________________________

Also second, the suggestion to handle the Two Weapon Fighting line with the +15% on all the Two Weapon Feats, I think will make both the players happy and provide a closer to pen and paper set up.

CONSTANTS
B(Base Proc Rate) = 20%
TWF(Two Weapon Fighting) = 15%
ITWF(Improved Two Weapon Fighting) = 15%
GTWF(Greater Two Weapon Fighting) = 15%
RTI(Ranger Tempest I) = 10%
RTII(Ranger Tempest II) = 10%
RTIII(Ranger Tempest III) = 10%
LWS(Lesser Wind Stance) = 5%
WS(Wind Stance) = 5%
GWS(Greater Wind Stance) = 5%
UWS(Ultimate Wind Stance) = 5%
 
BASE LINE
B + TWF = 35%
B+ TWF + ITWF = 50%
B + TWF + ITWF + GTWF= 65 %
 
TEMPEST LINE
B + RTI + TWF + ITWF = 60%
B + RTI + TWF + ITWF + GTWF = 75%
B + RTI + RTII + TWF + ITWF + GTWF = 85%
B + RTI + RTII + RTIII + TWF + ITWF + GTWF = 95%
 
WIND STANCE LINE
B + LWS = 25%
B + LWS + WS = 30%
B + LWS + WS + GWS = 35%
B + LWS + WS + GWS + UWS = 40%
B + LWS + TWF = 40%
B + LWS + WS + TWF = 45%
B + LWS + WS + GWS + TWF = 50%
B + LWS + WS + GWS + UWS + TWF = 55%
B + LWS + TWF + ITWF = 55%
B + LWS + WS + TWF + ITWF = 60%
B + LWS + WS + GWS + TWF + ITWF = 65%
B + LWS + WS + GWS + UWS + TWF + ITWF = 70%
B + LWS + TWF + ITWF + GTWF = 70%
B + LWS + WS + TWF + ITWF + GTWF = 75%
B + LWS + WS + GWS + TWF + ITWF + GTWF = 80%
B + LWS + WS + GWS + UWS + TWF + ITWF + GTWF = 85%

If I read my numbers correctly from combining the requirements of class levels you should not be able to exceed 100% at all and it also will allow players to combine the Tempest Line and and the Wind Stance line more effectively.

[Oran_Lathor]

Sorry if this has been asked, but I couldn't bring myself to read all 40 pages:

Does tempest get a chance to double strike (in lieu of its speed boost) in this system, or no?

I realize that tempest is supposed to get a higher off-hand proc rate than other dual wielders.


My gut instinct on reading this is that it nerfs twf too much. I really don't think my tempest 3 is outperforming equally geared frenzied berserkers/kensai 3s so much (if at all).

[Gratch]

Why would the goal be to get TWF and THF close to each other? Why would anyone put in the bigger investment to get TWF if it not better than THF?

TWF requires dexterity and strength, while THF only needs strength.
TWF has a penalty on attack rolls, while THF does not.
THF has more damage against groups, while TWF has no such bonus.
TWF requires obtaining twice the number of weapons, which closely equates to twice the Shroud runs.
TWF requires devoting twice the inventory slots to weapons.
TWF loses more of the effectiveness if you don't have all three feats.

TWF has some advantages too, such as an increased number of magical item slots available for customization (since we don't currently put more treasure effects on two handed weapons), and potentially more versatility.

Though you have a point... the post you quoted has 6 points. 6 > 1.

My guild of character builders and I need a better explanation of why it's okay for THF and TWF to be even DPS wise vs. a single target given the points above. i.e., why the nerf? You can enact the physics change without the nerf or at least with less of it than the current ~20% proposed.

And sadly, I would say in most cases your versatility argument only applies to trash. If I'm hitting Velah/Sulo/raid bosses... I mostly just want pure DPS... as most of the versatile fx (like imp destruction, weighted, smantle, etc) either don't apply to raid bosses or don't need to be applied every (other) hit. In fact there's a number of DPS cases where I wish there was no versatility and I had two duplicates of the main hand weapon.

[Phoenix818]

So, when I noticed how many pages this was, I skipped a lot. Forgive me if I say something already said.

Overall, the changes look good. I don't have a problem with TWF having to chance to trigger on each swing. It honestly makes more sense anyway, one of my Dragon magazines around here somewhere says that's how it was GOING to work in Pen and Paper except that it slowed the game down too much. You keep trying to get a MEANINGFUL swing in with the off-hand and only succeed part of the time (more often with better TWF skill).

The only issue I have is with Rogues. Most of my rogues are not damage-optimized anyway, but usually are TWF to have a chance to drop mobs with a single swing, to eliminate sentries and summoners from Stealth before the party closes to melee. It rarely works, but that's sorta the POINT of a rogue having Hide and Move Silent, you know?

My proposed change addresses this from both a mechanics and flavor-oriented point of view:

"True" sneak attacks (against a helpless opponent, against an opponent that is unaware of the rogue) should give a 100% chance to proc the off-hand. You created the opportunity by attacking someone who can't defend themselves.

"Distraction" sneak attacks (flanks, feints, stunned opponents) should increase the proc chance a significant amount (maybe in the range of 15-30%) and possibly give a slight chance to double-strike with the main hand. You get more opportunities when you're trained in the art of attacking distracted opponents. (the slight chance for double-strike could be added to true sneak attacks as well)


This would allow for TWF to be brought closer to THF in overall DPS (it should still lead, barring that ONE SWORD, but won't be so far ahead) while still allowing Rogues to gain an advantage over opponents who can't defeat their stealth or don't pay enough attention to the rogue in their midst.