Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[SquelchHU]

Yeah, probably. remember, this one hasn't had me screaming my head off!! Forums vets know just how quickly I can personally be responsible for the growth of a thread. Just see my post count.

I suspect this one will be on the triple digits by tomorrow morning.

[Cyr]

It's Memorial Day Weekend, if I were Fernando I'd buy a few cases of brew and throw them in the office fridge and make a party out of it.

Yup, BQ on the roof. Sounds like a good office party to me.

[Chai]

the game will loose a lot of players cause of this changes
probably i will stop too and stop to pay my vip
i have a monk 20 reborned 1 time, i wish to make another 2 TR and spend TB to buy it
now i just know that i wont do that
sry but monk damage is very low.... and it will be worst
lol

Nope, its been proven time and again that the players will remain where they are. They may crawl back onto the forums from time to time to express their anger at one change or another, but they will still pay and they will still play.

What exactly do you know, before a single test has been run on the changes?

Nothing.

But that doesnt stop the molehills being turned into mountains, like they have been for every single major change in the game.

[Khelden]

We're considering modifications to the bonuses the feats grant, and possibly even bringing back STWF.

I'd say do whatever is required, but bring some balance between TWF and THF please.

[Gercho]

Im not for that changes at all, but all those ppl saying that "twf is not much dps more", "twf needs more stats investment", "twf needs 3 feats" etc make me laugh. 80% of all melee chars in game r twf, and they all should be saints, they r real martyrs, almost no benefits but they still roll twf chars. Its ridiculous.
In what would u put that few more stat points ? More wis for rangers perhaps ? Or maybe more int and wis for rogues ? Please, we all know that those points r needed in dex anyway, for to-hit with bow, for reflex saves. Stop fool yourselves that u make any sacrifice and u got only "litlle more dps"
im all against that changes, its a nerf for THF aswell (btw try to make twitch attack with such lag), i just cant stand hypocrisy and/or stupidity.

Actually my paladin could use those points in con (had to start with 12 to cover all requisites) or cha so i could qualify for DM IV or even str (started at 16), maybe now 80% are twf, after this change you will **** those 80% some will quit and others will respec and 80% will be THF.
If you check players doing epic i think you will find much higher % using THF...

[Lithic]

We're considering modifications to the bonuses the feats grant, and possibly even bringing back STWF.

Oh hurray, a 2weapon fighter will need FOUR feats to come close to a 2hander! Best news eva!

[Dylos_Moon]

We're considering modifications to the bonuses the feats grant, and possibly even bringing back STWF.

But but my favored soul can't take a feat with a BAB 15 requirement.

[Coldin]

We're considering modifications to the bonuses the feats grant, and possibly even bringing back STWF.

I'm curious about another thing. Suppose it was possible to increase the chance of off-hand attacks past 100%. Would that actually provide any benefit?

[EyeRekon]

Trying to fork off relevant technical discussions into another thread. This one is too scattered and difficult to follow. I tried to capture other useful posts that I saw.

Technical Responses to U5 Combat Feedback

[Borror0]

Call me crazy, but I don't see how this is going to reduce lag. You're replacing physics collision calculations with % proc calculations, several of them.

Isn't this just going to make it worse?

Collision tests are very expensive in terms of computation, whereas a chance to proc is very light. That is why few MMOs have collision tests and rather have it automatic hits: it greatly reduce the burden on the server and the likelihood of lag.

Yeah, probably. remember, this one hasn't had me screaming my head off!! Forums vets know just how quickly I can personally be responsible for the growth of a thread. Just see my post count.

Worse, I have not posted much in this thread either.

[bobbryan2]

Would it not further decrease lag if the "double strike" only doubled the damage when it procced.

For instance, when a double strike occured, on an attack that did 20 + 5 + 14 + 3, you just made it 40 + 10 + 28 + 6.

That would give the same DPS increase, but keep you from doing extra calculations 10% of the time.

Furthermore... that would let you add "double strikes" back into the offhand. It makes no sense for % speed increases like zeal and tempest to only affect half your attacks. That seems like a silly bonus to THF that isn't needed.

In short... I don't think people care about the stream of numbers so much as their overall effectiveness.

[SquelchHU]

Oh hurray, a 2weapon fighter will need FOUR feats to come close to a 2hander! Best news eva!

Superior TWF originally had a Dex requirement of 19.

So wouldn't that be 4 feats, a gimped Con to afford that Dex, and you still fail at life?

(Emote): SquelchHU points at Lesser Heart of Wood +5.
(Emote): SquelchHU has a sudden revelation!

[Gercho]

We're considering modifications to the bonuses the feats grant, and possibly even bringing back STWF.

no more feats please, a 7 feat char will need 4 feats just to get full twf??? sounds like too much really...

[Khelden]

Actually my paladin could use those points in con (had to start with 12 to cover all requisites) or cha so i could qualify for DM IV or even str (started at 16), maybe now 80% are twf, after this change you will **** those 80% some will quit and others will respec and 80% will be THF.
If you check players doing epic i think you will find much higher % using THF...

Huh, I don't know about other servers, but on Cannith I've never [well, rarely] run epics with another THF, with reason: they are bad.

I play THF and knows that I am on the wrong side, but I LIKE to play THF.

If TWF can't accept to be on the same level than THF, it's their problems. Unless you're a barbarian, THF is gimped. Many people plays this way, they accepted to be less effective than TWF but STILL play THF because they like it. Now, if both are even, it's a blessing.

[Siskel]

Would it not further decrease lag if the "double strike" only doubled the damage when it procced.

For instance, when a double strike occured, on an attack that did 20 + 5 + 14 + 3, you just made it 40 + 10 + 28 + 6.

That would give the same DPS increase, but keep you from doing extra calculations 10% of the time.

Furthermore... that would let you add "double strikes" back into the offhand. It makes no sense for % speed increases like zeal and tempest to only affect half your attacks. That seems like a silly bonus to THF that isn't needed.

In short... I don't think people care about the stream of numbers so much as their overall effectiveness.

Another possibility would be to add half the damage to off hand attacks.

[Amberyll]

I'm not sure what's your reasoning here, but if TWF currently gets 220, then it means 110 swings, so post change it would be 110 * 155% = 170.5.

For a fighter with TWF, based on PnP, and the feats/enhancements in DDO, it appears I should get 7 attacks per cycle. These are 4 Base, +1 for fighting with two weapons (not the TWF feat), +1 for ITWF, and +1 for GTWF. If you are a Tempest 3, you get one additional attack when dual wielding.

Just to check, I ran my level 18 Tempest into the Vale to find some test subjects. By all appearances, he still only attacks 7 times per cycle.

Have I added one attack somewhere in that analysis?

But, based on this, it doesn't appear we always get an off-hand attack with every main. This would throw off the calculation you listed above.

[R0cksteady]

Well, at least the devs will pull in some money now that every TWF fighter build is severely underpowered compared to two handers, and wont even be able to match Tempest TWFs. plenty of True reincarnations. And hey, just in time so they can spend a **** load on 4X +5 heart of woods!

[bobbryan2]

Nope, its been proven time and again that the players will remain where they are. They may crawl back onto the forums from time to time to express their anger at one change or another, but they will still pay and they will still play.

What exactly do you know, before a single test has been run on the changes?

Nothing.

But that doesnt stop the molehills being turned into mountains, like they have been for every single major change in the game.

When you're given the numbers, you know more about the change than when you test it.

Testing it will show you how it 'feels' and your 'gut feeling'... but while that feedback is important, it's completely ridiculous to say that hard feedback on the actual numbers behind the change is useless.

We can see which classes take a 20% hit in effectiveness. What will playing with the change allow us to do other than see how that 20% hit "feels."

I'm basically just taking a long time to explain that the feedback here is just as helpful if not more helpful than any feedback on playing on Llamy.

[Thar]

My first initial reaction is this,

Two weapon fighting should be more effective than two handed fighting per normal pnp rules due to the extra attacks which this appears to be reducing somewhat. Two handed fighting gets the bonus for increased strength (and in ddo glancing hits). TWF should have more attacks to balance out the classes as rangers are built for twf and have less hit dice, using smaller base damage weapons, to hit penalties etc.

That said, i understand the calc limitations. It would seem you would need to bump up the suggested proc's for the off hand attack to make it more balanced with thf rather than trying to bring the two styles closer together because there are other factors involved in those styles.

[Cyr]

Nope, its been proven time and again that the players will remain where they are. They may crawl back onto the forums from time to time to express their anger at one change or another, but they will still pay and they will still play.

What exactly do you know, before a single test has been run on the changes?

Nothing.

But that doesnt stop the molehills being turned into mountains, like they have been for every single major change in the game.

Wrong Chai. DDO's subscriber fall off before the really brilliant idea of the hybrid model was pretty drastic. I myself left the game two times for about a year span both times, one over the badly constructed fix to the abbot and the other over the reaver refuge crafting and slow release of Mod 9. This lost Turbine from just me ~$240. I am a single player and those decisions cost Turbine real money. I had lots of guildies do likewise in both cases. In fact, both my guilds of the time broke up due to this player loss.

Your second point is the same one you try and make in every dps thread that math is really hard and that there are just way too many variables to ever get real numbers. I didn't agree with it then and I certainly do not think it is a valid point here where the actual hard numbers have been given to us already.