Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[DropList]

With dark....here is the thing it can be done without losing anyone. They jut need to do it in a fair manner....we need les physic calculations accross the board period. It needs to be an exactly equal amount ACROSS THE BOARD.

[Tarragon12]

I play a very big barbarian, who is illiterate, mean and stupid. So, i had him sit in the Harbour and think about the changes, that Eladrin proposes. He didn't get far. Here is what he came up with.

Bear with me as i try to walk you thru my thoughts.
Proposed change(NOTE: lets round down and presume that both hands do the same dmg, its not true, but the difference is 7 dmg for str 40 and its this factor that intoduces error in following calculations thats in barbarin's favour, but not in a significant way. Difficulty of dealing with 7 accurately is beyond this stupid barbarian, you need at least a bard for that, if not a wizard):
Future:
tempest 3 ... (DPS)*4*(1+0.55+0.3)=7.4 DPS
barb DPS*4*(1+0.55)=6.2 DPS
ftr DPS*4(1.1+0.55)=6.6 DPS

Quotient tempest/barb = 7.4/6.2 = 1.193


Past:
tempest 3 ... DPS*4*2*1.1 =8.8 DPS
barb ... DPS*4+DPS*3=7 DPS (rangers have secondary attack on 4th chain, barbs don't)
ftr ... DPS*1.1*(4+3)=7.7 DPS
Quotient tempest/barb =8.8/7=1.257

This ranger DPS quotient is bad. Fortunately, its not the total cruise control to WIN because, barbs have superior strength, more hitpoints and they are easier to play, build and equip and they don't have to carry remove curse pots or heal themselves too much.

So, to sum it up, there are two points. One was obvious before, the other was not.
1) DPS goes down.., by 16% for the ranger. Actually, its a bit less, because of NOTE, i estimate by about 3% less, so lets put it at 13% and by 12% for barb. Same NOTE applies, but less so, so let's make it 9%.


At first, reading Eladrin's post, i thought that barbs take a greater nerf hit and starting aim of this post was to denounce him of barb hate and demand radical change.
2)Now i see, that is quite the opposite. Barbs get hit less and it means, we get more powerful in compariso.

DPS*1.1

Generally:
Good, but not enough!


However, with nothing to offset it, it simply means, that we spent more time fighting, which means we need more healing, we have to click more, wait more, get bored more and casters run out of mana sooner.
Also, i don't think that this makes THF viable, because difference of THD TWF actually pretty huge: all effects from one weapon + its dmg + its enhancement bonus+ more criticals. Its much more than 12% decrease we are now facing.
Do your own conclusion for fighters. They got included by accident.


Turr of Thelanis, former Urr on Keeper.

[Chai]

He's making a great point that was brought up earlier - there's maybe 3 raids where lag is an issue. That's it, drastically changing everything when those three quests are the only issues is ********.

Ah yes here we are at the turning point.

All the quantity based moaning on the forums about fixing the lag, and being peeved that nothing is being done about it. Now when something is being done about it, people are gnashing their teeth at it before they have even had a taste. The level of backpedaling is so huge, you could generate a years worth of electricity from the breeze it creates alone.

This issue has been cried about on open forums since the Shroud came out, and the moaning hasnt stopped. And now, we are justifying leaving everything alone because its just 3 raids that are affected?

Wasnt it 3 raids or less that have been affected, like, this entire time? The entire time, 2.5 years or so, up until present, people have been going off their chains on the forums spinning epic tales about how the lag is so hampering the game.

But now, when they propose their fix, its just a mere paltry 3 raids, all because its been determined that the level of DPS calcs that have to be made is a large contributing factor in the lag.

The people who ranted, moaned, and complained about the lag the entire time made your beds, now you get to lie in them. This is what happens when mountains are made from molehills. The fix is just another mountain.

I am reserving my judgement for when this is tested. Maybe I will have the same opinion as you, and maybe I will not. Until then, heres your nerfed TWF.

[Aesop]

First and foremost.

1. The difference between GTWF and Tempest seems a little heavy. 55% vs 85-90%. Not that tempest shouldn't have the advantage, but an advantage of 30-35% is a little too much I think. Or perhaps its just that 55% is too low.

Base Chance to Proc OH (Off Hand) = 15%
TWF = +15%
ITWF = +15%
GTWF = +15%

total 60%


Tempest 1: +10% Insight Bonus
Tempest 2: +7.5% Insight Bonus
Tempest 3: +7.5% Insight Bonus

total +25%

Wind Stance 1: 5% Insight Bonus
Wind Stance 2: 5% Insight Bonus
Wind Stance 3: 5% Insight Bonus
Wind Stance 4: 5% Insight Bonus

total +20%

Dexterity benefit = +Dex Mod%

I thnk A_D was mentioning something like this. Certainly would help Finesse fighters out a touch. Actually if this could translate into the Double Strike suggestion for the Weapon Finesse feat... it would be similar to a suggestion I made a week or so ago.

which would be a Tempest With a 40Dex would have 100% TWF

alternately the Dex benefit could be .5x Dex Mod% so that the max TWF Proc rate (at this time) would be about 97%


2. Double Strike seems like an interesting concept and idea. I would definately advocate Kensai gaining a bonus to Double Strike... as it stands with this proposal MC Kensai TWF are getting hosed. Multiclassing doesn't need to be hosed any more than it already has been.

so really what I should be saying is that Kensai should have a split benefit.


Kensai 1: +2.5% chance to DS (Double Strike) AND +2.5% chance OH (when TWF)
Kensai 2: +2.5% chance to DS AND +2.5% chance to OH (when TWF)
Kensai 3: +2.5% chance to DS AND +2.5% chance to OH (when TWF)

total +7.5% Chance to DS AND +7.5% chance to OH (when TWF)

So instead of 100/55% for an MC Kensai twf (which is the way its proposed) it would be 107.5/67.5% and a Pure Kensai TWF would be 117.5/67.5% with its Special Weapon while a Tempest Ranger would have 100/85% all +Dex Mod Benefit (which a ranger would likely have a higher modifier for as they have Enhancements for it... though not 100% of the time)

3. The reduction of usefulness of Wind Stance could be an issue... then again the rest of the Stances do fall far behind, but catching them up by gutting Wind Stance isn't a great way to go about it. I'm curious to here about the plans for Water Stance being a Staff Stance?

I mean the Negative to Strength would certainly be ... well a negative for Staff Fighting in general. perhaps an increased chance to Proc Glancing Blows? 5/10/15/20% maybe?


4. I thought I saw something mentioned about ToD line needing a change and that hitting it should trigger an unarmed attack regardless of what is in your hands... this would be AWESOME and help balance out weapons and Handwraps a bunch I imagine.


5. My greatest concerns do come from my personal pet peeve of course and that is Ranged Combat. I was DEEPLY concerned about the Ranger Capstone and now that a bunch of the speed increasing effects are likewise being changed this brings that bonus into even larger relief.

We are in need of a Ranged Combat rewrite. I don't care if you start ranged combat off slow at low levels but the increase in RoA as levels increase needs to be higher. The Ranger Capstone needs to change as well. This all stems back to (beta ) the Haste and combat Style change (which was a good thing), Then ranged combat stayed the same and everyone else gained base attack speed to catch back up to where their attacks were before the change.

6. Have you considered giving Tempest improved off hand fighting capabilities in terms of damage done... ie instead of .5 Str mod each level could increase that by a touch say

Normal = .5 Strength Mod
Tempest 1: .6 Strength Mod
Tempest 2: .7 Strength Mod
Tempest 3: .8 Strength mod

or

Normal = .5 Strength Mod
Tempest 1: .65 Strength Mod
Tempest 2: .75 Strength Mod
Tempest 3: .85 Strength mod

or

Normal = .5 Strength Mod
Tempest 1: .5 Strength Mod
Tempest 2: .75 Strength Mod
Tempest 3: 1 Strength mod


That could help alieviate a little of the issue. Monks are already at 1 Strength Mod for unarmed combat so it shouldn't be too bad and you wouldn't feel as bad for removing a couple of off hand attacks here and there

I forget what else I was going to say

Aesop

[SquelchHU]

Heh, I must have left the house right as this thread was posted. I think this thread might take the record for fastest growing thread ever on the boards. I don't believe I've ever seen one like this, and that's saying something.

Faster than the WoP nerf thread?

[Cyr]

Feedback is one thing, but all I'm seeing over the past 10 pages or so is "whaa whaaa whaaaaa!"
I've seen very little feedback in quite a while.

/meh

I've heard that before. It usually comes up when someone disagree's with the general nature of the feedback being given. Each time we have a new poster post about how they feel about this change it's new feedback. Each time a new suggestion is discussed it is also feedback. I'm looking through the last 10 pages and there are tons of new posters and tons of new suggestions.

[Siskel]

Call me crazy, but I don't see how this is going to reduce lag. You're replacing physics collision calculations with % proc calculations, several of them.

Isn't this just going to make it worse?

Remember, I'm no coder so I don't fully know the implications, but it just doesn't feel like it's going to fix anything, to me. It also will reduce twf damage across the board, while simultaneously not fixing the problem.

Feel free to explain to me why I'm wrong, if I am.

Here is a page describing how to calculate a collision detection in 3D space. I don't know what equations are used in this game, but this will give you an idea of what is required. Note more accurate collisions can get costly.

http://www.gamedev.net/reference/art...rticle1234.asp

A random number can be generated most likely with less code. Although for better statistical results a more complex function is desired. If the game uses a simple RNG the computation is relatively quick, but we will see anomalies where multiple calls to the RNG do not produce a uniform distribution.

[Aspenor]

Faster than the WoP nerf thread?

Yeah, probably. remember, this one hasn't had me screaming my head off!! Forums vets know just how quickly I can personally be responsible for the growth of a thread. Just see my post count.

[Eladrin]

I've seen very little feedback in quite a while.

There's actually been a lot of very useful feedback in this thread.

Call me crazy, but I don't see how this is going to reduce lag. You're replacing physics collision calculations with % proc calculations, several of them.

Isn't this just going to make it worse?

Some things are very light, performance-wise. "Chance to proc" is one of the lightest calculations available.

Edit: Actually, even those chance to proc checks are improvements, since it's no longer checking your feats constantly, but instead looking at a cached value.

[R0cksteady]

No you want a great axe or falchion...they are the better options. If you use a greatsword leet players will view you know little of game mechanics...just like they will in the future if you are twf...I DO promise this.


So I hope everyone is ready to see only great axes...and S.oS. Wow how fun Maybe you should figure out or starting stats too...may as well here the are for melee...

Race: WF
class: barb maybe an off fighter.

str max
dex dump
con max
int near dump
wis dump
cha dump

how exciting!!!

I'm a Kensai fighter. I'm speccing for one weapons. And I'm not going to pass up wthe Epic SoS. So yeah, I'll be using greatswords endgame.

[Cyr]

There's actually been a lot of very useful feedback in this thread.

I hope you have some coffee, because it is sure to get even longer tonight as people log on and hear about this after they get off work.

[sephiroth1084]

First, and as always, thank you, Eladrin, for sharing ideas with us and seeking out feedback! It should be clear by now that, for me at least, communication from the devs is paramount to whatever changes are actually being discussed.

Moving on...

I'm wondering why TWF grants a larger bonus than ITWF and GTWF. To me those should be more equal.

My feeling is actually that the bonus granted by the TWF feats should increase with each tier, rather than front-loading the bonus. Perhaps 10%, 25%, 40%?

Monk air stance is interesting. Right now it gives a bonus to attack speed, but this change seeks to make air stance more of a TWF only doesn't it? Not that there's probably many monks that are using air stance and only single wielding kamas or using quarterstaves.

Wind Stance not being optimal for every fighting style isn't bad. We're considering doing something with Water Stance to make it a preferable staff stance, though Sun Stance's strength boost could also be appealing.

I'd really much prefer some system for making the various stances useful for all styles, rather than ending up with stances targeted to specific styles, especially given the following:

I suppose what I really don't like is overall attack speed being decreased. Attacking slowly is just...more boring. I like being a whirling blur as a monk in air stance with haste.

We encountered this same issue when the devs played around with combat animations when DDO:EU hit and everyone complained about attacking so much slower. One of the big allures for many people going monk, acrobat, monk/acrobat, or stacking other alacrity bonuses onto their character(s) is the pleasure in seeing your character attack at blinding speed. I know that I rolled up a monk/acrobat almost exclusively because I happen to really enjoy the quarterstaff animation and like to see incredible swing speeds. In fact, I did that knowing that such a character is behind a TWF rogue in nearly any situation in terms of DPS.

This change to the way speed increases apply to attacks would essentially make concepts like this somewhat pointless, and visually unappealing Yes, I know that most people don't build a character simply for the visual representation, but the pleasure factor is there for most everyone, as you found out before.


Another concern is just how far ahead Tempests will be over basically everyone else. Currently they were ahead, but it didn't seem that they were ahead by as big a margin as this proposal would leave things. Specifically, fighters and paladins especially get shafted, or so it seems. There have been suggestions from others throughout the thread on ways to decrease calculations per swing, which seem like they would help a lot with the goal of reducing overhead without really rebalancing the entire combat system.


Question: would it be theoretically possible to end up with over 100% chance for off-hand attacks, given enough bonuses? It seems like, theoretically, a Tempest III w/ Jorgundal's and the possible Warchanter song may get to that point. What happens then?


I don't even especially care about a general decrease in TWF DPS, but I'm not too thrilled about how differently the changes affect the various classes and styles, and am not very happy at the prospect of combat being slowed down visually, again.

[Winteris]

Im not for that changes at all, but all those ppl saying that "twf is not much dps more", "twf needs more stats investment", "twf needs 3 feats" etc make me laugh. 80% of all melee chars in game r twf, and they all should be saints, they r real martyrs, almost no benefits but they still roll twf chars. Its ridiculous.
In what would u put that few more stat points ? More wis for rangers perhaps ? Or maybe more int and wis for rogues ? Please, we all know that those points r needed in dex anyway, for to-hit with bow, for reflex saves. Stop fool yourselves that u make any sacrifice and u got only "litlle more dps"
im all against that changes, its a nerf for THF aswell (btw try to make twitch attack with such lag), i just cant stand hypocrisy and/or stupidity.

[Calebro]

*strange double post*

[GottDDO]

I was gone from the game for three years.

Was there this much chicken littling going on when they nerfed evasion?

I wasn't here for that, but I had some level 12 characters with near 2k favor each that were affected by it and who are pretty messed up right now. I bought one of those hearts of wood to try and save one, and while he's salvageable, I don't even play him.

I didn't quit the game again though. I just made other characters and use a couple of them as mules.

[Argo112]

Having read all 650+ posts of this (avoiding anything arguing about who should tank Horoth) - it seems that there's a consensus that this "fix" will have a ca 45% chance of actually fixing lag in part 4 of shroud and TOD and a 100% chance of screwing over TWF in all other content. Having capped both THF and TWF characters, I prefer the TWF simply because I attack faster and big numbers (TWF Min2 heavy picks) come flying out quicker. The only time that lag actually matters is in part 4/5 of shroud and TOD - that's when 12 folks waste 30+ minutes of playtime each because of lag deaths. Ironically, those people in shroud 4/5 and TOD are the ones who are going to be impacted most by this nerf. Believe it or not, equipping a TWF with greensteels is a mega pain compared to equipping a THF (twice the stone runs in vale, twice the shards to grind, twice the LARGE SCALES to grind). If this nerf goes through, I lose enjoyment raiding with my TWF barb and leveling my handwraps monk and exploiter ranger. My THF fighter is geared out - nothing new or exciting comes from playing that guy - so there'll be no reason to continue my subscription either.

I'd much rather have a shroud run fail because of lag once a week then see all the grinding I put in on my TWF guys go to waste.

/not signed

[Eladrin]

My feeling is actually that the bonus granted by the TWF feats should increase with each tier, rather than front-loading the bonus. Perhaps 10%, 25%, 40%?

We're considering modifications to the bonuses the feats grant, and possibly even bringing back STWF.

[Cyr]

Question: would it be theoretically possible to end up with over 100% chance for off-hand attacks, given enough bonuses? It seems like, theoretically, a Tempest III w/ Jorgundal's and the possible Warchanter song may get to that point. What happens then?

If this has not been thought of already I would propose an automatic off hand hook and the chance of a 'double strike' with the off hand equal to your off hand hook % - 100%.

[Aspenor]

I hope you have some coffee, because it is sure to get even longer tonight as people log on and hear about this after they get off work.

It's Memorial Day Weekend, if I were Fernando I'd buy a few cases of brew and throw them in the office fridge and make a party out of it.

[TheMeanDM]

We're considering modifications to the bonuses the feats grant, and possibly even bringing back STWF.

Sounds like some of us are on the same page with you then

Good to hear!