Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Dawnsfire]

I'm not going to pretend to be able to follow this whole discussion very well. It is far too long and the maths are making my head hurt I will just post my one fear and continue to follow Eladrin's reponses via the Dev Tracker. As an altaholic (I play my alts a ways, get bored and then start over... alot), I have only 1 capped toon. It is 18/2 Ranger/Fighter. What I am afraid of is that if TWF gets nerfed too far then I will be left with a character whose main class for melee (ranger) has no real recourse for correction except to TR into something else. All other melee classes have some alternate choice (be it THF or S&B) for melee. A ranger is kinda stuck with TWF. I guess I will just have to wait to see the results on the Lam server. Good luck slaying the Lag Monster Eladrin. Maybe that would make a good next raid boss...

[grodon9999]

. . . You really don't get it do you Eladrin? . . .

That pretty much sums it all up doesn't it? Grinding Shrouds for TWICE as many larges to still be lower DPS than barbs sucks. "hmm, let's take away 25% of there DPS." Real brilliant idea.

Turbine is a lousy DM.

[TheMeanDM]

My thoughts on the matter, perhaps some rehash, but none the less, here goes:

Two Weapon Fighting (TWF), Two Handed Fighting (THF) and Sword and Board (SaB) are, unfortunately, all unequal in their inequalities. What I mean by this is that they have advantages and disadvantages, but some have significantly less disadvantages.

If you're going SaB, you're going to be doing less damage per strike (DPS)...and going to be he hit less (theoretically). If you're THF, you're going to do tons of DPS, have additional DPS with glancing blows, but give up some armor. When TWF'ing, you're trading some (-2) to-hit bonus and some damage (1/2 damage on off-hand) for the possibility of hitting more often (thus raising DPS).

But what do you see people running (from what I hear) most as attackers? TWF builds. There is something innately "cool" about seeing your character dual wielding kick arse weapons and Ginsu-ing your way through opponents.

I don't read or see a lot of SaB builds....I do, however, see a lot of TWF and THF builds. That's because they're the type of builds that excel at DPS.

And, of course, the more hits you get in (e.g. TWF) with special-effect weapons, the more chances you have to trigger said specials.


Which (to review the OP) is the crux of the matter, isn't it? Too many special effects processing (proc'ing) during big battles.

Another way to look at it: There are too many people "dipping" into Ranger and getting the best TWF feats while not getting much for disadvantages....or the Greater Two Weapon Fighting feat (11th level Ranger) is acquired too early.

So there are two choices:
1) change how many special effects can be placed on weapons
2) change how many TWF hits can get through

Neither is popular or going to win many "fans".

Adjusting the weapon limitations is, probably, quite unfeasible.

So changing the # of TWF hits makes more sense.

However...

This change, though it may help reduce lag due to special effects proc'ing....does nothing to address the gaps between TWF, THF and SaB. I am not saying that they all need to be equal....there would be no "fun" in them all being so very similar.

However, from what I read, when you can run a TWF or THF character with AC in the 60's, and not worry too much about getting hit....and still pump out massive DPS...what good is that SaB character who's in the 70's but doesn't do as much damage going to be? Why choose to play one, besides for fun....when the object is to squash your opponent as efficiently and quickly as you can through force-of-arms?

I'm just kind of putting all my thoughts on the matter "out there" so to speak...sorry for the mental diarrhea.

Anyways...

My thought to help expand upon the solution (or mayhap to muddy it up) would be to allow Rangers to keep hitting at-or-near 100% of the time with their offhand.

We have:
Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Greater Two Weapon Fighting

These are all "free" to Rangers (up to 11th level).

My idea would be to incorporate the Devs' idea about multiple TWF feats increasing your % to deliver an off-hand strike, as well as a couple other ideas:

TWF = 50% chance for Second Strike
ITWF = 65% chance for Second Strike
GTWF = 80% chance for Second Strike + 5% weapon speed

New Ranger Enhancement (20th level capstone)
PTWF = 100% chance for Second Strike + 5% weapon speed

PTWF = Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
Level: 20
Cost: 4 points
Requires all of: TWF, ITWF, GTWF

Monks could have something similar added to enhancements....say....Superior Two Weapon Fighting. Gives them a 90% chance to do a second strike, lets say.

So there you have it....my deluge.

Thanks!

[Eladiun]

I agree that TWF has other social benefits, but in comparison to the output to DPS they are minimal.

However, for argument sake, i will side in that regard with you, so long as you allow me to free respect my character becasue I wont want to be a TWF anymore, and how about deconstructing my two khopeshes so I can use my ingredients elswhere.

Less we forget the grind to get them since I wont get that back.

Is my investment outweighed by the "nominal" side benefits?

doubt it.

I have already said free respecs and deconstruction should come along with the change for all affected characters. Nominal...I'll disagree that double enfeebling/puncturing is nominal. I'll disagree that running with a paralyzer and a burster of pure good is nominal. I'll disagree double the customization slots are nominal.

[GottDDO]

So if we want to do solid dps we should all roll thf barbs? No thanks. There should be other classes that do viable dps as well.

So if you don't have the most, then it's not solid or viable?

[Pithrin]

It reduces the number of permanent speed increases in the game that are doing nasty things behind the scenes, significantly reduces the overhead in a bunch of the calculations, and makes the off-hand more unpredictable than before. It is also (on average) reducing the frequency of off-hand attacks.

/twf; monk nerf

I am actively seeking to avoid making broad changes to existing treasure systems.

Could we at least bring the light/dark monks on par with everyone's GS goodness and get wraps?

Loosing speed and the frequency of off-hand attacks for all TWF's but keeping GS as it is (still excluding monks primary weapons) isn't going to sit well with the growing monk community.

[TThorlord]

question:
Would the offhand attack only Proc on a successful hit?
same with the double attack?
if it were to stay close to the same power, i would imagine it could proc even on a miss.

[Tanka]

weighted applys to both hands so no need for a second one

Most people don't use it for the bonus to Stunning Blow. Most people use it for the random chance to auto-stun.

[tolana]

At this time there are no changes planned for haste action boosts.

Monsters would take 50% longer to kill only if the off-hand chance was reduced to zero, and a chance to attack under 100% was applied to the main hand as well. (As main hand attacks deal more damage than off-hand, with the exception of the monk.)

so monsters WILL take 25% longer to kill and no bonus to cleric sp? My main is a clr and my 2nd is a twf rogue. basicly 4 years of grinding stuff for weapons and you give us this ****. my sub will not be renewed at the end of the month and i will leave if this affects my rogues dps or the amount of resources my cleric has to use to get through a quest. period.

[bandyman1]

Now you're just being illogical. So if you don't have the most, then it's not solid or viable?

Epic SoS was already the most.

The grind for it justified by the fact that TWFers had to do double the grinds of a THFer anyways.

So, since we're already behind, your solution is more of a drop???

[Khurse]

That pretty much sums it all up doesn't it? Grinding Shrouds for TWICE as many larges to still be lower DPS than barbs sucks. "hmm, let's take away 25% of there DPS." Real brilliant idea.

Turbine is a lousy DM.

OTOH the fact that such a huge percentage of the player population was both eager and willing to grind 2x the larges could be considered a sign something was unbalanced.

Main concern still is that the proposed change effects different classes (due to special abilities/attacks etc) unevenly.

If rogue DPS is dropped further than Monks, who are a little further behind Rangers, but Barbs get a boost, it doesn't seem all that balanced.

[Creeper]

To be honest, it's irrelevant. At end game the only procs we care about are DPS procs. And even with those procs, THF Barb beats Tempest III even without eSoS:

Maybe I missed something in my calculations, but if they're correct, shouldn't the extra effort required for TWF count for something? My calcs even assume a scenario about as favorable to Tempest III as is possible. Throw in DR, non-favored enemy, fortification, no Bard, and it's going to fall behind even futher.?

Right, and the question is: how far behind in melee DPS should a ranger be to a THF Barb?

Because they SHOULD be behind in DPS to barbs and fighters, the way I figure it, because of all the other cool stuff rangers get (IE. Evasion, Spells, Many Shot, Free TWF, non-dependancy on short term boosts IE. Rage, Frenzy, Powersurge, Shield Spell every minute, Zeal, etc.)

The question only should be how far behind Barbs in DPS should Rangers be?

That is just my opinion though.

[bobbryan2]

I have already said free respecs and deconstruction should come along with the change for all affected characters. Nominal...I'll disagree that double enfeebling/puncturing is nominal. I'll disagree that running with a paralyzer and a burster of pure good is nominal. I'll disagree double the customization slots are nominal.

You can disagree... but paralyzer, enfeebling, puncturing weapons are all nominal to DPS. None of those really work on red names in any real capacity.

Double the customization slots? Uh... pretty sure epic Two-handers have double the customization slots. And as far as stuff like greensteel? Yes... they have double slots for double the cost. It takes upwards of 10 large scales to outfit a melee with 2 min 2's.

In terms of end game DPS, the added weapon slots are nothing more than a trap. At best, you're looking at lightning strike as the extreme example.

With a 2% proc rate... a TWF (who spends double points) will have 2% proc with main hand and 1.1% proc with off hand. A total of 3.1% proc.

A THF will have 2% proc rate +10% for double strikes. So 2.2%... then you have a slight chance of proccing one on a glancing blow. So a TWF has less than 50% additional benefit for double the larges.

And that's the extreme example in TWF's favor!

[gott_ist_tot]

1) You will probably take away a good portion of the fun that is actually seeing your character attack faster.

2) If the dps reduction will be as noticeable as it seems, a few classes will perform worse than they did till now. If you want to make two options equal always go hauling the worse up, don't bring the good down - this general rule applies through all things with life. Never underestimate the anger of people who have their rights taken away from them.

Monks will be better because they did not spend insane amounts of time making greensteel weapons.
Monks will be worse, because it takes more grinding than any other class to be at-par dps already.

Again, if thr reduction is bad... I don't envy people who TR'ed multiple times with a vision of TWF dps finale character...

On a not completely non-serious note, if the proposed patch reduces the lag by 50%, wouldn't it be just cheaper to buy 50% better servers?

Now, changing the tune to more... holisitc I guess, can't quite put my finger on it... but I feel rebelancing the game as a side effect of lag reduction can't be good. Rebalancing through nerfing is a horrible thing on it's own.

"We’re attacking this problem from many angles (...)". I'd very much like to see the alternatives you're considering.

You've already tried reducing lag, introducing the feature most players dislike.
Maybe this time they won't revolt yet.

[rdasca]

Again Turbine has made the code changes, and they want us to test it on Lam; however, that server will never have the load to test this correctly. Until this goes out to the live servers no one will know the full impact it will have on "dps" lag, but the hard numbers show that it will nerf TWF for all classes that use TWF. Turbine has made up its mind to go ahead with these changes and get our feedback from the test server, unfortunately as I have already stated this will have zero real game meaning until it goes live, but at least Turbine can say “See this reduced dps lag on Lam, so we are putting it in the next update.”

As someone else said in this thread earlier, the lag problem has gotten a lot worse since the "maintenance" on Wednesday, now I do not want to be a conspiracy nut, but if this change is introduced say at the same time whatever broke was fixed, then Turbine can say "Hey look the nerf to TWF helped fix the dps lag issue" .... I am not saying that is what will happen or even that it was planned that way, but the timing is a bit suspect.

[Diib]

On the bright side this will make arcane THFs a lot more powerful.

And no more need for the headache of trying to balance a good caster with the twf reqs.

[Quijonsith]

Heres my suggestion, remove collision detection all together, and go to actual simple reach radius, just like actual pnp, if im standing beside the mob, ie within weapon reach, and swinging, assume im facing the guy and swinging at him, especially when hes my selected target.

for TWF, 5ft, small ring, THF, 10ft, bigger reach. If im within that ring of the mob, have him targeted, and am swinging, just assume im colliding and completely remove the need to add collision rolls.

This I think is an excellent idea. I didn't realize there were actual physics involved in the determination until this thread. I don't see where there was ever a need for it. If you're in range you're in range. The attack roll itself is what determines if you hit and the misses can be the explanation of 'well for that attack you were just barely out of range'.

Monks: Wind Stance will be the only viable stance at all after this change. Currently, it's seen to be that way also, however the changes will put it even further into the lead. No-one will ever want to switch to another stance and lose 20% of their extra offhand attacks. If this goes in, the other three stances need to be looked at.

(Question: Eladrin mentioned something about extra procs with Touch of Death? Could this be clarified, please? Currently ToD does not trigger on the offhand strike. In the new system, would it have the offhand chance of doing so, for two Touch of Death hits? If so, that might go a long way towards minimizing the DPS impact for dark monks.)

Solar, ToD will have a chance to proc on a 'double strike', which is a percent chance to attack again with the main hand. Monks won't natively have this ability, but may be able to get it in cases where if warchanters can grant the group an extra percent chance to double strike. There still won't be any ToD on offhand attacks.

Also, i fixed the last line of your question. The percent chance to proc a double ToD may minimize the impact for dark monks, but it will still be a slap in the face to light monks. As it is right now I feel like my light monk does respectable DPS while being able to support the raids with buffs. The only boost double strikes will do for light monks is using the basic Fists of Light strike on undead so we have a 'chance' to double strike them with it, and that's still nothing compared to touch of death. It'd be the same as a dark monk using the basic dark attack on any enemy not immune to negative energy and getting a double strike.

The only potential saving grace to me for light monks is the smites from shintao monk and if shintao II grants silver and cold iron bypassing. That still wouldn't help any light monks that prefer to go without a PrE in favor of rise of the phoenix or what have you.

[Iambeastx]

Ok,

I ain't great at working dps calculations, but to me it seems that my main character, whom i love to play (twf paladin) is getting greased.

Not only that but as can be seen by past issues you will not offer any way for me to change my character to 'fix' what you change.

Is this another ploy to gain more money from your playerbase by forcing us to reincarnate?
Its not our fault that we fully spec our characters to provide high dps.
Its not our fault that you cannot make/update/change your hardware and software to compensate for the dps increases.
Yet somehow you feel that downgrading existing characters performance is a means to fix what you do wrong.

Maybe i'll go back to Eve online, at least that company has some serious hardware to cope with its demands (much higher demands than DDO needs i might add), i can live with f2p.

[GottDDO]

I fully support the change.

Just say, "Yeah, we're fixing the lag and balancing the game better."


There's a reason half the raid is composed of characters using TWF and Khopeshes. Let's see some more diversity. Let's get some balance.


This is an online game, folks. For most of you, this isn't your first time at the dance. Changes happen, especially when new content/levels are added. How many people used to use a shield when the cap was 10 compared to now?

For those of you new to online gaming, you're gonna have to get used to it.


/sarcasm ...

If they don't make this change, I'm taking my toys and playing somewhere else...

[drac317]

Swing Batta ,batta!