Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Cyr]

TWF has some advantages too, such as an increased number of magical item slots available for customization (since we don't currently put more treasure effects on two handed weapons), and potentially more versatility.

DPS is the only thing driving people to make TWF builds. Running epic there are more and more THF builds now. Why would people expend all these extra resources (build, time/equipment) for an item slot that if you use for non-dps purposes drops your dps below a THF build now? My monk splash build Sharess is twf now and finesse. Has radiance rapier and a lightning 2 rapier. She's an AC build and uses insight +4 on her GS. This change goes in and she's TR'ing the moment she hits 20 into a THF toon. That's preposterous when a build that has all the perfect equipment for TWF AC build (which she does) is still going to dump it over board and go THF based upon a mechanic change. Her dps loss from this change is just far too drastic if I think grinding for an epic SoS will net me more dps increase then my current setup ever could net me.

[Roda]

Say you're using THF twitch exclusively. Are all three THF feats worthless now that there are no glancing blows while moving?

[Diib]

I have to agree with others that TWF and THF should not be equal as a dps choice unless the difficulty to achieve the end result is the same for both. With limited build and stat points, especially to qualify for feats, it requires a lot more of the player to make a good TWF build. Unless you want to add to the difficulty of doing well with THF, TWF should see an advantage for the added cost.

I spend a lot of time playing, and very little of that time in raids effected by lag. I have a feeling that this lag "fix" is going to drastically alter the effectiveness of my melee twf builds for the majority of my play experience (big stick), while offering less lag that will only matter when I raid (small carrot).


If there is no stopping this change, of all the ideas here A_D's idea of tying Dex to offhand proc chance is a good one, as it creates a new consideration in building a twf character. Still, the extra work and specializing in multiple stats needs to be rewarded with higher dps, otherwise there is no point in paying the higher cost.

[Creeper]

If you perform a "special attack", such as a ki strike or finisher (or trip, or stun), those secondary effects carry over to all attacks that are performed as part of that swing. You primary attack, any procced double strike, and any procced off hand attack will all do whatever it is.

Ah, good to know. Thanks!

[GottDDO]

For what it's worth, you may be overlooking a thing here - TWF is the more popular style because there are more classes that benefit from it - rangers, rogues, paladins, monks, even fighters to an extent - the core damage bonuses of these classes don't change at all with THF and benefit much more from the direct multiple attacks that TWF offers. Barbarians are the only class whose main damage dealing ability, strength, is altered by THF in a positive manner and that's why most of them go THF for maximum effectiveness. THF has the added benefit of not costing dexterity. By reducing the effectiveness of TWF you are for the most part reducing the effectiveness of the listed classes and giving Barbarians even more power over them, despite the fact that Barbarians already are the dominant endgame melee.

Barbarians should be the dominant endgame melee, and no, I don't have a single barbarian.

Every other class can bring something else to the table, some utility. Barbarians DPS. That's all they do, and they should be the best, by far, at it.

[kaelis]

sorry if this was already covered in the 500 replies... I didnt check...

what if you just enticed players to run raids with less than full parties?

Dunno if you missed it but raids were short manned, way back in the day. They changed that system in order to encourage grouping, because n00bs couldn't find groups and complained.

My rogue already took a DPS nerf with the introduction of adjustments to attack speeds based on BaB.

This nerfs her again.


In addition; You're nerfing my monk and my kensai.


Yeah; I just came back after a three month break, and was about to resub.


Guess I'll save myself the money.

Hi bandy! ...good to see- oh, nevermind, bye again bandy

[Quikster]

TWF has some advantages too, such as an increased number of magical item slots available for customization (since we don't currently put more treasure effects on two handed weapons), and potentially more versatility.

But you need to look at the whole picture. To be effective twf needs a minimum of 3 feats, thf needs 1. TWF costs tons more in stat points (min 4 for an elf with a +3 tome, more likely 7 build points and a +2 tome) where thf costs very little as many melees put an emphasis on str. TWF costs tons in weapons costs, not just ingredients for greensteel, but if you carry a vorpal, you need two, if you carry a gcb, you need 2, if you carry a weighted weapon, you need two, and on, and on, and on. Finally you need to find a way to boost your too hit as you suffer the penalty if you cant afford the extra feat, or you wield light offhand weapons (which is not even being considered here and further compounds this problem)


So over all most twf:

Have lower to hit
have less free inventory space
Have a very large (double) cost associated with outfitting a build with weapons (this imo is offset by the additional magical properties you mentioned)
Have larger stat investmet
Potentially have a larger feat investment.


With all these considered, adding a dps decrease basically kills it as a fighting style. Currently the gap is acceptable imo. I have heard nobody complain about twf vs thf in a very long time now, this change will basically kill twf as a damage style comared to thf, and make how many people want to respec how many alts with how many gs weapons sets? Mine carry x2 of the following: LS MIN II X3 pos at a minimum. Thats 6 dualshard weapons, or 120 larges across 15 or so alts, thats 1800 larges that i would have to eat to switch all my twf over to thf. Thats certainly not going to happen.

[Flixxer]

Well i have 20 lvl fighter and basically now that i've collected weapons and other stuff I will really bad compared to others in upcoming u5. So basically screw over fighters!?

I don't like it, instead of improving your services for less lag you nerfing most melees at our cost and effect our gameplay for which we are paying! ! nah i'm totaly against this proposal!!!!

[moops]

This idea is awful. Right now in End Game THF is pretty equal with 2WF--Right now many Raids we have the option to use 2WF as our Main Tanks--We will lose this option by nerfing the DPS of 2wf, and it will take many, many groups forever to fill and raid.

There is already a mindset that only 2hf WF can tank in VOD and TOD, this will further it, and I see these LFMs sit there forever as it is, after the change it will be worse.

Not only that, it took me quite a long time and a ton of plat and money, some real money spent in your store, to perfect my 2WFS.

I had thought that the AC change for EPic was a move in the right direction--but now we are back to prob seeing only Barbs and Sorcs in End Game Content.

[SquelchHU]

How exactly is TWFing only useful to Rogues in PnP? I've played many TWFing melees in PnP, but they certainly weren't all rogues.

Because TWF is gimp in PnP and THF with a reach weapon is the only way to go. PM me if you want the detailed reasons.

[tihocan]

You attack, the server sends back *only* the index to the table and uses the relevant number of indexes forward on the server side calculations. The client receives the index, *blah* gets printed in the combat log from the local table.

I've probably not thought of something obvious...

I think it is the answer to this question:

Would this help?

No. Computing and communicating a random number should not be causing lag. If it does, then no need for such an elaborate solution, just find and fix the bug

[Epitome]

Since coming back to the game I noticed the DPS lag is the greatest in Epic DQ2. I have always believed that not only are our calculations "lagging" the experience but the DQ's as well. Any nerf to her multi-weapon attack rates? That is alot of calculations coming from her 6-armed cleave she possess. Same goes for all these mobs who possess whirlwind attacks and greater cleaves. Are they being addressed as well or do their attacks functions this way already? Again I probably don't know how this all functions behind the scenes but I do notice DPS lag with more of these mobs, especially DQ2 when she attacks our entire raid party.

I also notice DPS lag when I spam cycle through Arcane Initiate (magic missiles), the spell magic missiles and force missiles all on a mob. I don't believe this is lag do to my computer because I generally manage 100-200 fps with maxed graphics.

It's funny, I've always told the guild when they were trying to mitigate dps lag in melee abeyance against a boss that we should all just roll 2-H Barbs or Pallies and craft up Epic SoSs. I'm guessing this idea wasn't as comical as I once believed.

Where is the bottle-neck along the entire system of this game? Is it many peoples ISP's not being able to send and receive packets at a decent enough rate to handle many cracked out TWF? Is it the servers themselves not able to handle the calculations do to either bandwidth or hardware limitations. Have we really reached a technological plateau in the computing world to where we cannot address this issue with some upgrade?

[Creeper]

Nerfing is always bad whatever the reason, valid or not.

Hmmmm..... I just.....

NM

[phillymiket]

My highest level character is a TWF.
I've invested more in time leveling that guy and equipping that guy than any other.

I'm perfectly willing to take a "nerf" for the team if it helps the game. Of course, my time investment is piddly compared to others.

I thought it was a common belief that you HAD to be TWF to contribute to DPS.
I thought it was common belief that ONLY DPS contributed to end game (epic) content.
Therefore ONLY TWF contributed to end game content.
(At least I THINK I've read this umpteen times on these forums)

Could this not bring the game into better balance?
If mob HPs were nerfed proportional to the DPS nerf from slower attack speed wouldn't it make it so everyone could contribute when it's time to go a'killin'?

I'm sure the huge percent of melee will be in the category effected but isn't that because at this point it's the only real option? Why did you choose TWF? Flavor? RP? PWNS ALL IN ITS PATH? I picked it in part (big part) because of the last reason.

These are true questions not statements (for the most part) except to say that if a nerf is needed to fix some problems than I'll deal with it.

Maybe a "lesser reincarnation" weekend or something where LR are cheaper or free may least ease the pain. I know that doesn't help the time in crafting GS but it's something. Maybe this may be the time to consider a system to reverse crafting so people could get ingredients back (if that can even be done).

(I posted this in another thread but am re-posting here because it is the "official feedback" spot I assume. Pardon if my opinions have been expressed by others already but this thread is to dang long to read it all now. (Man, I do not envy the poor soul who has to organize all this feedback. Good luck brave warrior!)

[dj.kickz]

i dont mind if u want to swing the nerf stick at all TWF characters but why are u hitting palys and fighters harder then monks and rangers? if you want to reduce the dps of all TWF characters lets reduce them all by the same amount.

[Visty]

if you carry a weighted weapon, you need two, ...

weighted applys to both hands so no need for a second one

[Quikster]

Barbarians should be the dominant endgame melee, and no, I don't have a single barbarian.

Every other class can bring something else to the table, some utility. Barbarians DPS. That's all they do, and they should be the best, by far, at it.

So if we want to do solid dps we should all roll thf barbs? No thanks. There should be other classes that do viable dps as well.

[bobbryan2]

4) There is one thing I dislike about the changes specifically to TWF, in the collision analysis seemingly being dropped entirely from the offhand. I typically (and realistically) will fight with my main hand hitting 1 mob and my left hand hitting a 2nd mob to the left. It seems like this will be completely eradicated with these changes. This is both unrealistic and kind of lame.

I hadn't considered that. Is this the end of double assassinations?

[Calebro]

Say you're using THF twitch exclusively. Are all three THF feats worthless now that there are no glancing blows while moving?

If you're twitching *properly* it won't affect you.
Running and swinging isn't twitching.

[dkyle]

That's still more effect applications than two handed styles get.

To be honest, it's irrelevant. At end game the only procs we care about are DPS procs. And even with those procs, THF Barb beats Tempest III even without eSoS:

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=269

Maybe I missed something in my calculations, but if they're correct, shouldn't the extra effort required for TWF count for something? My calcs even assume a scenario about as favorable to Tempest III as is possible. Throw in DR, non-favored enemy, fortification, no Bard, and it's going to fall behind even futher.

Vorpal, Banishing and so forth are handy at some times, but considering they don't work in Epics, and are only marginally useful in endgame Raids (taking out trash that barely matter in the first place), that's not going to be a reason to choose TWF over THF.

Can't we just see if the single physics check alone fixes the lag?

EDIT: Re: versatility of TWF

The only people I can think of that carry two different weapons in their hands because it's optimal for the situation are Spellcasters, and the occasional stunner with a weighted warhammer in one hand, and a burster in the other.

Given the nature of the end game, if the versatility can't be used to increase DPS, it's essentially irrelevant.