Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Raiderone]

Give full strength bonus to the Off-Hand then. Nerf one thing but improve another.

[Pereghost]

Just as an FYI, I'm not against the changes. I still want to see how it is in-game, but I do have a question.

Monk Greater air stance is pretty much already the only real stance used. It's going from a 10% insight bonus to a 20% offhand attack bonus. Won't this change benefit it even more over the other stances?

I kinda like Sun stance myself but I do get comments for using it over wind already.

[Mister_Peace]

"The size of the change necessary isn't within the scope of changes that we'd be able to make in the time frames we've got."

Eladrin, which of these statements is most accurate?
A change of this magnitude (which solves DPS lag and rebalances TWF against other styles of combat) is ...
1 ... so critical it must be rolled out along with the very next content update published.
2 ... so important it must be focus-grouped, analyzed and tested, which will not allow it to be rolled out in a timely manner.
3 ... should be rolled out when it is finished, on schedule and under budget.

[Tomalon]

Once again i see Turbine trying to patch something in stead of truly digging deep down in the code and fixing it the right way.

When i run in grps/raids with lots of TWFs/monks and we get everyone in the grp to turn off combat feed back the lag is GREATLY reduced. Seems to me you guys need to code a new way for the combat feed back system to work instead of ner..adjusting the TWF line to be less affective. Hell i bet more ppl would be happy if you just turned it off all together, till you could code it better, to fix the lag that way instead of the purposed ner.. fix.

Now, i no nothing of coding and maybe this is not something you guys can do or know how to do BUT if (IMO) a grp of 12 ppl turning off the combat feed back can reduce the lag in said quest/raid by about 1/2!!!! Then i think this purposed fix is not the right answer. and you guys need to dig deeper in the combat feedback system

[Yajerman01]

I'd rather have the lag than these proposed changes. hell no. If you do this please give me Green Steel Deconstruction so I can un-gimp my toons from this horrible nerf. Do you want us to play anything other and THR barbs.

This is ********

I am going to agree with this. If your essentially bringing the DPS down or equal to THF, then I want to be able to deconstruct my khopeshes ,save the ingredients from one weapon and use it elswhere while I go THF.

If not, then your essentially telling all TWF's tough luck, deal with it and enjoy the wasted greensteel you vested in.

And if thats the case, then ill be the first to say later - no need to waste money on DDO after spending my time and effort to make a decent TWF.

= fail

[Mikula]

I just hate to see my playstyle become less effective in the game (which would make it less fun for me to play) and all of the TWF gear that I've ground out thus become devalued (which would make me upset because of all the time it took to acquire).

I feel like TWF paladins are still sitting pretty because now they have a chance for their smite to hit 3 times and that leads to higher chance for criticals which if I remember right is the main focus of that build. Really I feel like people here are making a mountain out of a mole hill and the nerf won't be as giant as they say it will. We pretty much have to just sit and wait for the update to come out to see though.

Edit: Okay so I am becoming a bit tired of people saying "Why don't you buy a better processor." and "Go deep down and fix the code." as if those two magical suggestions would fix everything and suddenly the game would run uber fast, with no lag, beautiful graphics and a pony for everyone.

[Cyr]

I don't see why TWF SHOULD outDPS THF. TWF has the benefit of higher effect proc rate, that's where they should shine. Also, I'd even go and say a THF requires much more work than any TWF due to how weak they are compared to TWF. To be on par with a TWF using Greensteel, one must have epic sos. To be competitive against someone using dual chaosblade, one must create a new weapon in the game.

Hey, I have two chaos blades...but people laugh at my gimp toon. Greensteel is better then chaos blades now...

[Tobril]

The Good
Developers asking for user input and giving a heads up regarding major changes
Developers actively participating in the discussions started by them asking for feedback
Less proximity detection checks to reduce server load


The Bad
TWF will be confusing to new and even old players unless it is clearly documented in the actual in-game feat descriptions


The Ugly
DPS loss for gear/stat/time intense TWF characters


The Confusing
Double Strike - Why?


The Counter-Proposal
Remove offhand proximity detection checks as described
Forget about double strike

Leave TWF otherwise unchanged…

OR

Raise the % to give people with all three feats the equivalent of 4 main hand and 3 off hand attacks
Tempest III can be special and have the equivalent of 4 main hand and 4 off hand attacks

[Gol]

My thoughts...

What I like:
Combining object collision detection: excellent idea.
Double Strike: Good idea
Reducing DPS lag: preach it.

What I don't like:
TWF dps is overall lowered, but it was lowered dramatically more for non-Rangers/Monks. Monks are sitting at +25% offhand proc and Rangers at +30% offhand proc without any restrictions. A pure Fighter or Zeal Paladin gets 10% more "main hand" hits at the expense of -30% off hand hits? That just doesn't sound right to me.

Should Tempest be the king of TWF? Yeah, I guess, but the problem is with our never-ending supply of +damage buffs and bonuses. When dealing with TWF, the initial problem with the off-hand is that you only get half your strength bonus to the damage. However, as +damage buffs start to pile up, that matters less and less. Combine that with a Ranger's FE bonuses (up to +12), Ram's Might, bardsongs, etc, and it those raw % numbers matter more and more. 10% in the main hand just does not make up for 30% in the off hand.

Suggestion:
Each level of TWF needs to be more. Maybe 20/15/15 instead of 15/10/10. Tempest can be 10/5/5, add a 5% offhand Ranger capstone, and each level of Monk can be 5% as well.

This changes your chart to:
[any build]            100%  70%
Fighter 20             110%  80%
Paladin 20             110%  80%
Ranger 20 (Tempest)    100%  95%
Monk 20 (Wind 5)       100%  95%
Ranger 18 / Monk 2     100%  95%

IMO, the melee playing field needs to be balanced as a whole. Bringing up the base value of the feats combined with bringing down the value of the class enhancements helps achieve this.

The other thing I don't like about this is that the only viable Quarterstaff build (Monk 7 / Rogue 13) would be hurt pretty bad. The Wind stance attack speed increase was key to that build. I don't know if the tech would allow it, but I don't see any harm in allowing Wind Stance to give an attack speed bump when THF, as it would apply strictly to a Quarterstaff.

Lastly, this better come with greensteel deconstruction or you're going to have a mass riot. It costs twice as much to equip a TWF character as it does THF, and it's for good reason. If we're nerfing TWF this much, at least give people a method to recoup some of their investments. Mark my words on that riot bit.

[grodon9999]

Will monsters get a 25% HP reduction across the board to make up for lost DPS?

is this turbine's "polish pass" to make ranged more viable by gimping everyone else?

[Thrudh]

Give full strength bonus to the Off-Hand then. Nerf one thing but improve another.

That;s not a terrible idea... If the number of swings is causing too much lag, then slow us down a little, but keep the DPS the same by letting us hit harder with each hit.

[Khurse]

I'd again like to say thanks for putting the info out here.
But

Has there been consideration or will the different impacts to different classes be looked at?

I'm *really* not a math guy, but it seems this is having different DPS impacts on different classes.

[Eladrin]

Catching up on the thread while I eat my lunch. This may take a bit. Apologies for not including post links in my quotes past the first one.

I am confused. Wind stance still grants attack speed bonus AND double hit bonus, or are you saying it only grants speed bonus on THF but not TWF?

Wind Stance (on live) grants an enhancement bonus and an insight bonus to attack speed. We're replacing the insight bonus with a bonus to off-hand attack proc chance.

Will these double strikes have a "hook" with ITWF and GTWF?

I don't quite understand this question.

If you possess a double strike chance (which initially only the Fighter Capstone and Zeal provide) you have a 10% chance of getting an extra main hand attack any time you press the attack button.

If you possess ITWF or GTWF, your off-hand proc chance is increased by 10%.

The un-diminished offhand damage and the ability to do elemental ki strikes and finishers on a hook (2 in 1) is why you see monks getting kills equal to other DPS classes.

If you perform a "special attack", such as a ki strike or finisher (or trip, or stun), those secondary effects carry over to all attacks that are performed as part of that swing. You primary attack, any procced double strike, and any procced off hand attack will all do whatever it is.

Question: Is there any difference between the physic check and the attack role? If Not then why not just enable the off hand attack to use the same physic check and a different attack role? If you can do that, than nothing else needs to change.

We are using the same physics detect as your main hand attack, and then doing the attack rolls for additional hits.

20 Fighter (Alacrity) 110% 55% (20(base) 15(twf) 10(itwf) 10(gtwf) = 55
Shouldn't this be 65 b/c alacrity gives an additional 10%?
20 Paladin (Zeal) 110% 55% same here, assuming zeal

Alacrity and Zeal grant a double strike bonus, which is why the main hand is at 110% on the chart.

The chaining of the off hand to main hand is the lag fix. The reduced rate of swings of off hand is the nerf.

This is correct. I'm certain that people have noticed that dps lag is worst off when you have a large number of dual wielding or unarmed monks in the party. We didn't want to attack the equipment they're using, but decreasing the number of off-hand attacks has a significant effect on the problem, while also bringing weapon styles closer together in general balance.

So, 4 rolls/calculations in either case...

But wait, if you don't proc your off hand then it's one less calculation!

Some calculations are much lighter than others. A postcard and an unabridged set of encyclopedias aren't the same thing just because they're both made of paper.

So how will critical hits with the "off-hand" now work, since there will no longer be an attack and comfirmation roll for it?

When an off-hand attack triggers, it has a standard attack and confirmation roll. Instead of always getting off-hand attacks on certain attacks, you instead have a % chance of getting an off hand attack on every swing.

Especially since you have admitted multiple times to be willing to tweak the system to what seems to balance out pre/post patch dps the best while maintaining an acceptable amount of reduction to dps lag.

Absolutely. I expect it to get modified post-Lamannia, as well as in subsequent updates.

What I am a bit confused on, is if you are adding additional proc effects, like Double Strike, that cause calculations/animations/effect, how does that lessen lag?

Adds a little in Pile A, lowers it in Pile B. If the amount that Pile B goes down is more than the amount that Pile A goes up, all is slightly better in the world.

I'm not seeing any issues with the actual process being used, but the reduced damage is going to anger a lot of people.

That's useful feedback as well. We're attacking the lag issues because people often say it's the most important thing for them. If maintaining their DPS is more critical to them than a smoother play experience, that's valuable for us to know, and we'll look at other, less aggressive (or different) options to solve the problems. I'd bet that greensteel weapons would be changing significantly in a future update if we revert these changes.

So since monks will have a change to double strike with Touch of Death, or get an off hand strike with Touch of Death (aren't they the same in the monk's case?), would this change also include monks being able to use Touch of Death with weapons - for example, shortswords if they are a ninja spy?

No changes have been made to the mechanics behind Touch of Death, Stunning Fist, or Quivering Palm at this time. I'll have to go in and check to see the exact way we're currently triggering these - it's possible that my earlier posts regarding these specific attacks are in error. Other ki strikes (the ones that don't require the unarmed combat style) would absolutely be triggering on the extra attacks.

a monk in Wind4 will have 25% fewer offhand attacks and 20% overall slower attack speed then they currently have.

Wind IV only grants a 10% Insight bonus to attack speed currently on the live servers.

are you seriously delaying update 5 to do this?

No?

This change will allow a choice between THF and TWF, instead of TWF suprematie.

This is desirable. If the pendulum swings too far in the other direction adjustments will, of course, be made.

But there isn't 0.15 seconds of time between the mainhand and offhand portion of a TWF swing...? It can be logically simultaneous, and thus share in the physics result with no concern for movement rate.

That's essentially what we're changing to. Currently all TWF attacks have two detects a fraction of a second apart. It's silly.

There's an interesting question about why you went ahead with Epic SOS after it had been leaked and the overpoweredness had been thoroughly discussed.

Momentary insanity.

Why would the goal be to get TWF and THF close to each other? Why would anyone put in the bigger investment to get TWF if it not better than THF?

TWF requires dexterity and strength, while THF only needs strength.
TWF has a penalty on attack rolls, while THF does not.
THF has more damage against groups, while TWF has no such bonus.
TWF requires obtaining twice the number of weapons, which closely equates to twice the Shroud runs.
TWF requires devoting twice the inventory slots to weapons.
TWF loses more of the effectiveness if you don't have all three feats.

TWF has some advantages too, such as an increased number of magical item slots available for customization (since we don't currently put more treasure effects on two handed weapons), and potentially more versatility.

if this works to lessen the lag, can we finally do away with the number one most unrealistic game mechanic used right now that claims to do just that? I am referring to DA here.

Dungeon Alert actually does help by making it suboptimal to create situations where there are a large number of monsters in a small area. (Dungeons where it automatically triggers through no action of your own need to have their spawns changed.)

I've always thought that THF should be king of DAMAGE.... but TWF should be king of effects...

Think about the rogue with 2 radiance II rapiers... That second rapier is only being used 55% of the time now? Ouch...

That's still more effect applications than two handed styles get.

I can guarantee you that NONE of the replies posted in this thread matter at all to the people making the decisions.

Incorrect. Much like when we changed the death penalty, these discussions are valuable to find holes that we missed and to shape the end results.

I would like to test this in a raid with TWF, ITWF, GTWF feats each granting a 20% bonus to proc off-hand attacks, instead of 15%, 10%, 10%.

We'll be looking at the effects on Lamannia to determine if there should be changes made. It's quite possible that the numbers will shift.

Currently, Touch of Death does not have any chance of procing a second unarmed attack

Yeah, I was probably wrong on that one. Should fix that entire chain of special attacks. Ideally you'll perform an unarmed attack regardless of what's in your hands.

What happens if this doesn't really solve the problem?

I can pretty much guarantee that it won't solve every instance. We've got a bunch of people investigating from other angles.

Example, my wife and I were running Iron Maw the other day and we would get a RED for simply waking into a room when we had NO other aggro.

That's an example of an area that should be bugged, and the area needs to be adjusted.

Also would you be willing to balance this nerf with some mob's having their HP's & immunities modified?

We're open to making adjustments.

Eladrin is a he, he is the voice of harry in the shroud.

That wasn't me, that was Eldorudo.

why should we assume that ToD should be the special case here?

Some of the monk special attacks don't follow the normal pathways other attacks do.

I'll toss out a semi-wacky idea, which would not maintain the existing game balance:
Make the chance for offhand attacks with the TWF feat series somehow dependent on actual current dexterity.

Interesting thought.

I'm hitting submit now because I'm deathly afraid of someone stepping on my power switch. To be continued!

[valorik]

Give full strength bonus to the Off-Hand then. Nerf one thing but improve another.

This would buff fighters and barbs, and put rangers further behind the curve though.

[Eladiun]

Regarding Lamannia - we will be wiping characters, however, we don't have plans to regularly wipe the Lamannia account info. This means that if you use Lamannia-only points to purchase premium features for preview, they will be there for you later. So if you're premium and have restricted access to a certain race or class, it behooves you to use any of the Lamannia-only points you receive to unlock these features so you can copy your most important characters when you want. We plan on having more Lamannia points give-aways for those who are participating in the preview/feedback of Update 5. We're targeting next week if all goes well.

Let me start by saying I'm P2P so this issue doesn't affect me personally but... You need to rethink this and choose you wording better. It doesn't behoove players to use their points on the test server wisely. It behooves you to give them points equivalent to what they have spent live. I understand why you wouldn't want to just make everyone P2P on test. I disagree with the logic but I understand. Player testing on Lamannia is the community helping you...for free. Reward those that do and make it easy to test on Lam.

[Drakos]

Ok, first I'd like to then you for giving us the heads-up and the oppertunity to make comments/suggestions. It shows that Turbin is at least trying to enhance their communictaions with the community. Eladrin seems to be leading the charge here with the puzzels and now this .

Now on to the point. I have to say I am not fully in favor of this change. You started out by telling us that the thing being addressed for lag was the extra physics detection, That sounds reasonable enough and the proposed solution to piggyback the second check on the first is very reasonable ang I am in agreement with.

Then you started talking about the changes to TWF and attack speeds. Currently the system hs off-hand attacks hook into the main attack but you are guarenteed an additional attack at points in the attack chain. Now you are talking about changing this to be a proc % chance of additional attacks, but with each main-hand attack. I fail to see how adding additional checks to every main-hand attack is going to speed things up. If anything I would see this as slowing it down a bit. Admittedly it is all on the server side, but then it was before. With the double-tap adility being added you are adding even more checks to the attacks.

Why the change in the TWF (and the addition of the additional checks)? How will that part reduce the lag? You explained ho the physics check reductio will help, but not this.

On top of all that, the Monk, who's DPS is generally considered sub-par, is taking a significant hit here. You admit that you went overboard on the SOS, but then this change will onle encurage people to switch to using the SOS and it's epic version. The change seems counter-intuitive to the admittal of the "going overboard".

[Grendyll]

I don't see why TWF SHOULD outDPS THF. TWF has the benefit of higher effect proc rate, that's where they should shine. Also, I'd even go and say a THF requires much more work than any TWF due to how weak they are compared to TWF. To be on par with a TWF using Greensteel, one must have epic sos. To be competitive against someone using dual chaosblade, one must create a new weapon in the game.

Like Eladrin said in his 1st post, both should be balanced out, making one style better than the other only because of the character, not the game mechanics.

Please Khelden, 2HF is not weaker than 2WF currently. They are actually very closely balanced. If anything, 2HF is actually superior at end-game (esp. with epic SoS).

[Tomalon]

So Turbine's "solution" to end DPS lag is to nerf DPS.

This seems like an awfully big change to do something that might help.

You dont know Turbine do you?
/sarcasm on

Turbine employee #1: the DPS lag is getting bad guys. any ideas on how to fix it?
The rest of turbine employees: *crickets*
Employee #1: well lets try this ............ and see if that works.
The rest: And if it doesn't?
Employee #1: who cares at least we can write a post and say we are trying to help to fix the lag. ie we are listening to our player muhahaha
The rest *crickets*

/sarcasm off

[bloodyrag]

sooooo whens the nerf to epic SoS?

[Seosamh]

I've been thinking, the only time I notice any DPS lag is when fighting a raid boss.

In particular, the raid bosses that don't move - either at all, or once they are properly surrounded.

Why not just implement a mechanic that removes physics checks when fighting raid bosses provided neither the boss nor player has moved within a certain distance?