Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Geonis]

The issue causing lag seems to be the physics check for the attacks.

Why not just remove that from the off-hand attacks, if the main hand hits via physics check, then the matching off hand attack counts as a hit per the physics engine.

One less physics check for every off-hand attack?

That should be enough of a change to lower the lag.

Backing out every other swing seems to be the only "exploitable" portion of this, and it gives no benefit that I see, and would be pretty much impossible to do.

[Daehawk]

so I just reread the title of this post...

are you seriously delaying update 5 to do this?

really?

Theres all kinds of interesting stuff to be thrown in to the game and this is going to lamania/lamania testing/qa...and your seriously delaying update 5 for this?

at least that's what the post title implies. Did I miss a post that does not indicate that you guys are not going to make us wait another year for an update?

I don't know if it's getting delayed. But Tolero stated that she is writing up the Release notes right now, well when she posted it. So I seriously don't think it's getting delayed that much.

This is probably something that he had been working on for awhile and before it is being released to Lam he is wanting general feedback from everyone on here.

[zarious]

Really posts like this are just here to make us feel better. I can guarantee you that NONE of the replies posted in this thread matter at all to the people making the decisions. The decisions about this have

A) Already been made

B) Will be made very soon after considering feedback from a very very select group of people of which YOU will not be included.

This post is only to warn you that changes are coming so you that you can prepare for it and won't scream stealth nurf. The asking for feedback is just to give you the illusion that your opinion matters. It does not. You are a vocal minority. A few hundred posters out of hundreds of thousands who play this game. Turbine will be making this (and every) decision with it's bottom line in mind only, and any negative effects this may have on you (or anyone elses) enjoyment of the game is irrelevant as long as it results in a net gain of profit (the amount of server cost reduction turns out to be greater than the amount of lost revenue from players leaving). Don't believe me? Just look at dungeon alert.

[Luis_Velderve]

THANKS TURBINE FOR FINALLY TRYING TO BALANCE TWF AND THF!!

Oh my god, it's so great to know they know about the issue of TWF >>>>>>>>>>> THF and are working on it. We might have the choice to go THF or TWF on fighters and paladins too instead of being a dumb if going THF.

Continue the nice work guys!

The only reason of the unbalance is a sword called kopesh!

[Yaga_Nub]

if you do do this (which it seems like you will), it would be nice to see these numbers reflected in the ddo character sheet, maybe with the glancing blow proc rate. the rules that govern your character shouldn't be hidden

There aren't any hidden rules in DDO. You just don't have enough memory to retain them all.

[Vhlad]

I have:
TWF monk (handwraps) 20
TWF tempest III 20
TWF paladin 20
THF fighter 20
THF barbarian 20

And I have decided that I like this proposed fix to DPS lag.

TWF and THF both see a reduction to DPS here. Don't forget that attacks with two handed weapons while moving no longer perform Glancing Blows (thereby reducing the advantage of THF twitch attacking).

There are really only a few ways to address DPS lag, i.e.
A) reduce swing animation speed
B) nerf weapon effects / procs
C) change the way the system calculates and groups numbers
D) self-inflicted DPS nerfs, i.e. everyone stop DPSing for 10 seconds, or 3 melee stand in the corner and do nothing.

While raiding now, we are stuck doing D). That is not fun. If the proposed changes remove the necessity for us to perform D, then I will be happy to accept them.

We have a small reduction to swing rate via double strike replacing fighter alacrity/zeal, and tempest/air stance off hand proc % replacing insight. I do like swinging faster (it is more fun), but the 10% reduction in animation speed for a few classes is fine. They could have globablly nerfed animation speed, but thankfully they didn't.

The removal of secondary physics detection + off-hand piggybacking is essentially changing the way the system calculates and groups numbers. This is OK! In fact, there are more ways they can optimize the grouping and calculation of numbers in attacks. This is really the area they should focus most on.

What players don't like about this proposal, is the nerf to TWF swing rates, i.e.

Build	                    	Main-hand	Off-hand
20 Ranger (Tempest 3)		100%		85%
Current numbers                 110%            137.5%

20 Monk (Wind Stance 4)		100%		75%
Current numbers                 110%            110%

20 Fighter (Alacrity)		110%		55%
Current numbers                 110%            110%

We're seeing some pretty big hits to TWF here. Yes, THF gets hit as well, but not as much. We can still have removal of secondary physics detection + off-hand piggybacking without such reduction to the effectiveness of off-hand attacks. I would like to test this in a raid with TWF, ITWF, GTWF feats each granting a 20% bonus to proc off-hand attacks, instead of 15%, 10%, 10%.

Under this suggestion, the chart would be:

Build	                    	Main-hand	Off-hand
20 Ranger (Tempest 3)		100%		110%
Current numbers                 110%            137.5%

20 Monk (Wind Stance 4)		100%		100%
Current numbers                 110%            110%

20 Fighter (Alacrity)		110%		80%
Current numbers                 110%            110%

This would be more in line with SRD. If these changes are enough to remove DPS lag in a raid setting, great! If not, then yes, go ahead and try it with the original numbers.

One more thing: we also now have the ability to triple-proc smites, monk strikes, trips, stuns, etc. This is a bonus.

[Seosamh]

One more question - if this works to lessen the lag, can we finally do away with the number one most unrealistic game mechanic used right now that claims to do just that? I am referring to DA here.

It has already been pointed out that DA addresses a different source of lag.

That is to say, no on the removal request.

[Dylos_Moon]

So... if you don't get double procs for ToD now... why would you get them after this change? The offhand mechanic hasn't changed... Only the percentage that the offhand goes off.

Eladrin said you could get double strike ToDs if you got the double strike ability FROM ANOTHER CLASS.

Eladrin said this, look at the part in red.

If you acquired a double strike effect from somewhere, then yes, Touch of Death could double strike (and trigger an off hand attack) for a total of three attacks. You may have to wait for the next tier of Warchanter though.

Currently, Touch of Death does not have any chance of procing a second unarmed attack, because it would always double strike when it did, unless touch of death is changed in update 5, the above statement quite literally says Monks in wind stance have a 75% chance to double strike ToD

[Geonis]

Really posts like this are just here to make us feel better. I can guarantee you that NONE of the replies posted in this thread matter at all to the people making the decisions. The decisions about this have

A) Already been made

B) Will be made very soon after considering feedback from a very very select group of people of which YOU will not be included.

This post is only to warn you that changes are coming so you that you can prepare for it and won't scream stealth nurf. The asking for feedback is just to give you the illusion that your opinion matters. It does not. You are a vocal minority. A few hundred posters out of hundreds of thousands who play this game. Turbine will be making this (and every) decision with it's bottom line in mind only, and any negative effects this may have on you (or anyone elses) enjoyment of the game is irrelevant as long as it results in a net gain of profit (the amount of server cost reduction turns out to be greater than the amount of lost revenue from players leaving). Don't believe me? Just look at dungeon alert.

This ^

[Potvin]

That's what I call the winner-attitude which most people seems to lack these days...

winner attitude? I'd call it the attitude of a sucker, tbh.

[ArichValtrahn]

As a player with a primary character that is a Tempest 3 ranger, I think this is god awful. 10% attack speed increase is the main benefit (in my opinion) of the tempest line. Losing that would ruin the point. I definitely do not like your solution.

And honestly, removing DPS lag by removing DPS is a horrible solution to start with. How about optimizing the code or improving the speed of your hardware instead.

[Thrudh]

Really posts like this are just here to make us feel better. I can guarantee you that NONE of the replies posted in this thread matter at all to the people making the decisions. The decisions about this have

A) Already been made

B) Will be made very soon after considering feedback from a very very select group of people of which YOU will not be included.

This post is only to warn you that changes are coming so you that you can prepare for it and won't scream stealth nurf. The asking for feedback is just to give you the illusion that your opinion matters. It does not. You are a vocal minority. A few hundred posters out of hundreds of thousands who play this game. Turbine will be making this (and every) decision with it's bottom line in mind only, and any negative effects this may have on you (or anyone elses) enjoyment of the game is irrelevant as long as it results in a net gain of profit (the amount of server cost reduction turns out to be greater than the amount of lost revenue from players leaving).

You're pretty cynical... Sad, really...

Don't believe me? Just look at dungeon alert.

or you could look at heroic surge and see the opposite example...

[Schmoe]

One of the major issues that we’ve been working on is the dps lag problem in high level content (especially raid content). We’re attacking this problem from many angles, and since some of the changes we’re considering will have significant impact on many characters, we’re interested in your feedback before it goes to Lamannia or live. We're trying to aggressively attack the issues that cause these lag problems and are interested in feedback regarding how aggressively we should be attempting to tackle them.

I've made a couple other posts, but I wanted to point this out. It looks like you've made three proposed fixes of a progressively more aggressive nature, and you're asking for our input on how far to take it. If that's the case, then I highly commend you!

There are three solutions being proposed, and each of them could be considered independently.

1. Off-hand attacks use the physics check of the matching main-hand attack to reduce the number of checks required.
2. Many (not all) speed increases become a percentage chance to proc an additional main-hand attack to reduce the number of swings.
3. Off-hand attacks only occur on a percentage basis, and the overall number of off-hand attacks will be reduced.


My feeling, and the overwhelming feeling of almost all the posts I've read, is that #1 and #2 are acceptable, and even good. However, #3 has been widely derided as unnecessary, counterproductive, and potentially subscription-ending. There ya go, I think you've found your cutoff point

[Slorgs]

So your GTWF Paladin will lose at least 12.5% of their DPS to reduce computations by 17 percent.

Not all computations are created equal.

In order to do some calculations, the code will need to call functions elsewhere in the code, which in turn may call yet more functions to compute things like XYZ co-ordinates, ranges, effects, spells etc.

Then you take all that data and put it into an equation that is likely composed of two or three dozen computations, each of which may involve more calculations and then do that 200+ times a minute for every player.

And the whole time that's going on the server is doing other stuff, like figuring out where the player is standing, what the monsters are doing, what AH items are selling, etc.

[Cyr]

Bring on the testing. Ill be more than happy to run a few raids with the change to see how it affects each of my toons.

One more question - if this works to lessen the lag, can we finally do away with the number one most unrealistic game mechanic used right now that claims to do just that? I am referring to DA here.

Yup, this incredibly huge nerf MIGHT be palatable if it COMPLETELY removed LAG while also having DA REMOVED.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Really posts like this are just here to make us feel better. I can guarantee you that NONE of the replies posted in this thread matter at all to the people making the decisions. The decisions about this have

A) Already been made

B) Will be made very soon after considering feedback from a very very select group of people of which YOU will not be included.

I know you are fairly new to the game so you probably believe what you are saying, but you are wrong. Changes in game mechanics have been made after feedback requests just like this one. Oh they probably won't completely abandon the idea, but they have a history of being open to making changes in the new mechanic to make it work better. The changes between the test and live versions of the new death penalty are one of the more clear examples of that, but there have been others.

You mention DA as one of your proofs, and while they left DA in, if you had been there to test DA you would know that what we have is substantially better than what was first put on the test servers.

[Khelden]

The only reason of the unbalance is a sword called kopesh!

GS Heavy Pick are quite destroying too, Chaosblade is just non-sense. Add-in the insane amount of effects from TWF, their attack speed, how stuff like smite evil fires on 2 attacks instead of 1...

winner attitude? I'd call it the attitude of a sucker, tbh.

Yes, because adjusting to a game is being a sucker.

I'll say it since I really want to... But if you don't like what the devs are doing, just quit the game lol.

[Visty]

I have:
TWF monk (handwraps) 20
TWF tempest III 20
TWF paladin 20
THF fighter 20
THF barbarian 20

And I have decided that I like this proposed fix to DPS lag.

TWF and THF both see a reduction to DPS here. Don't forget that attacks with two handed weapons while moving no longer perform Glancing Blows (thereby reducing the advantage of THF twitch attacking).

There are really only a few ways to address DPS lag, i.e.
A) reduce swing animation speed
B) nerf weapon effects / procs
C) change the way the system calculates and groups numbers
D) self-inflicted DPS nerfs, i.e. everyone stop DPSing for 10 seconds, or 3 melee stand in the corner and do nothing.

While raiding now, we are stuck doing D). That is not fun. If the proposed changes remove the necessity for us to perform D, then I will be happy to accept them.

We have a small reduction to swing rate via double strike replacing fighter alacrity/zeal, and tempest/air stance off hand proc % replacing insight. I do like swinging faster (it is more fun), but the 10% reduction in animation speed for a few classes is fine. They could have globablly nerfed animation speed, but thankfully they didn't.

The removal of secondary physics detection + off-hand piggybacking is essentially changing the way the system calculates and groups numbers. This is OK! In fact, there are more ways they can optimize the grouping and calculation of numbers in attacks. This is really the area they should focus most on.

What players don't like about this proposal, is the nerf to TWF swing rates, i.e.

Build	                    	Main-hand	Off-hand
20 Ranger (Tempest 3)		100%		85%
Current numbers                 110%            137.5%

20 Monk (Wind Stance 4)		100%		75%
Current numbers                 110%            110%

20 Fighter (Alacrity)		110%		55%
Current numbers                 110%            110%

We're seeing some pretty big hits to TWF here. Yes, THF gets hit as well, but not as much. We can still have removal of secondary physics detection + off-hand piggybacking without such reduction to the effectiveness of off-hand attacks. I would like to test this in a raid with TWF, ITWF, GTWF feats each granting a 20% bonus to proc off-hand attacks, instead of 15%, 10%, 10%.

Under this suggestion, the chart would be:

Build	                    	Main-hand	Off-hand
20 Ranger (Tempest 3)		100%		110%
Current numbers                 110%            137.5%

20 Monk (Wind Stance 4)		100%		100%
Current numbers                 110%            110%

20 Fighter (Alacrity)		110%		80%
Current numbers                 110%            110%

This would be more in line with SRD. If these changes are enough to remove DPS lag in a raid setting, great! If not, then yes, go ahead and try it with the original numbers.

One more thing: we also now have the ability to triple-proc smites, monk strikes, trips, stuns, etc. This is a bonus.

imo, to be in line with SRD it should be
Mainhand 100%
Offhand without any feat 25%
Offhand with TWF 25% (so it just reduces penaltys how it should be)
with ITWF 50%
with GTWF 75%
with tempest 3 100%

that way its how it is in pnp and could fit in here too

[DragonKiller]

Eladrin -

First, Thank you VERY much for taking this idea to the forums. What ever the out come, thank you for taking this to your customers for their input, and at least giving them prior knowledge. No matter what else you read in this or any post, you get a a MAJOR kudo for this!!

Now... I can say that I really, REALLY don't like the nerf bat. I'm also understand that sometimes it's needed. We have a huge problem with DPS lag on end game content. The only way to deal with part 4 in shroud in high DPS runs is to heal through the blades. We have no other viable options; so Turbine needs to do something.

My real problem is: What happens if this doesn't really solve the problem? I'm sorry, but I can say that as a long time player, dungeon alerts doesn't work. As a matter of fact, IMO it makes the game worse. Example, my wife and I were running Iron Maw the other day and we would get a RED for simply waking into a room when we had NO other aggro. However all I can see from the Dev team is DA is here to stay, and only needs minor tweaks here and there. I disagree and believe it is the WORSE change that has been put into game to date.

So, what happens if you implement this change, the players hate it, it doesn't resolve the DPS lag - Because "there are other problems besides this causing lag that we are working on" (or something like that)? Will you remove it? Or will you just move on with the nerf in place, players still dealing with lag, and say "O'well we lost a few paying customers again"? Also would you be willing to balance this nerf with some mob's having their HP's & immunities modified? Most of these super DPS TWF builds have been built because high DPS is the ONLY way to kill many mobs. Let's find a long term permanent solution that doesn't just punish the players, but actually finds a good solid ground to make the game fun and not just make us once again adapt to a change that will later cause you to have to make another change to fix what is broken.

I'm actually hoping that because you posted this you are really looking to customer input and value what we say; and your not just dropping fliers over the bomb zone before you drop a MOAB on us.

[Laith]

nm, lorien beat me to it