Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[bobbryan2]

As I said, in a monk's case, a double strike (unarmed atleast, and 95% of monks are unarmed) is more or less the same as an offhand strike. And yes, they do have a chance to double strike, that chance is 0%.

Double strike is NOT more or less the same as an offhand strike.

Right now you have a 100% chance of "double" striking with an offhand strike. Do you get double ToDs now? Or double stunning fist?

[Seosamh]

You did say that... you said 4 rolls\calculations = 4 rolls\calculations... but a physics calculation involves many more variables... 1 calculation/3 rolls is less than 2 calculations\2 rolls

Ok, how much less?

Worth giving up 0-50% of your DPS? That much less?


The point here being: If they want to reduce lag, why add in a new roll instead of just removing the physics check?

[Gercho]

Its funny that this game requires that you farm specific items for months to get a little benefit of maybe 1% of dps (like the difference from a +4 str tome over a +3 str tome, or an epic +7 item over a +6) and then all the twf gets nerfed about 25%... how do you think people that spent months farming for their dps increase of 1, 2 or 3% will feel?

[DarkAlchemist]

The size of the change necessary isn't within the scope of changes that we'd be able to make in the time frames we've got. No conspiracy.

Edit: There's also many, many posts in this thread that I haven't replied directly to.

No offense but this just reinforces the idea that your mind is made up and you are just selling it to us else if the public, your customers, don't like something then the change it would require would/could force you outside of your time frame as well. Meaning it/they wouldn't be done.

Yep, sounds like this is going in then wait for for the players to moan enough until some future date that you may fix it back.

[Eladiun]

And while you are at it, remove the true lag causers in the shroud, those STUPID blades. Lag doesnt kick in part 5 until they spawn. and part 4 is always terrible, when theres 4-6 blades spinning round needlessly.

FAIL. Your wrong. The last few nights lag has been worse in Part 1 on all of my runs. It doesn't only kick in on 4 and 5 with the blades.

[Potvin]

We need a base where we can actually test this without affecting live play. Lamannia is the best place.

Let non-VIP's go in with any toon they copy over on Lamannia please! There are people willing to help. But can't because we're not VIP.

J1NG

If this actually goes to Lamannia in any form even vaguely resembling this, then I totally agree. You cannot have enough volunteers in my mind testing this type of massive change.

[Cyr]

How about some numbers. 70 STR Greataxe Barb WF vs. 40 STR Khopesh Tempest III WF, both with lightning strike weapons vs non-dr, non-fort, non-resistant enemies with a pure warchanter available. Just comparing similarly geared up builds.

Over the course of 20 attack rolls:
Barb:
3d6 + 30[str] + 5[enh] + 9[bard] + 11[power attack] = 66.5 base damage per non-crit attack
(66.5 + 3.5[shock] + 3.5[shock burst] + 12[lightning strike]) * 17 non-crits = 1453.5
(66.5*5 + 3.5 + 3.5 + 27.5[shock burst] + 27.5[shocking blast] + 12) * 2 crits = 813
+14 on nat-20
= 2280.5
= 114 average per swing

Tempest:
1d10 + 15[str] + 5[enh] + 9[bard] + 8[power attack] = 42.5 base per main hand
1d10 + 7[str] + 5[enh] + 9[bard] + 8[power attack] = 34.5 base per off hand
(42.5 + 3.5 + 3.5 + 12) * 15 non-crit main hand = 922.5
(34.5 + 3.5 + 3.5 + 12) * 15 * .85 non-crit off hand = 682.12
(42.5*3 + 3.5 + 3.5 + 16.5 +16.5 + 12) * 4 crit main hand = 718
(34.5*3 + 3.5 + 3.5 + 16.5 +16.5 + 12) * 4 * .85 crit off hand = 528.7
+14 nat-20 main hand
+14 * .85 nat-20 off hand
= 2877.22
= 143.85 average per swing/pair of swings

So, excluding glancing blows, Tempest is pretty far ahead. I'm not sure how to calculate them, but I don't think they make up 30 damage per swing against a single target.

I suspect a TWF fighter is screwed, though, unless Kensai pumps up double strike procs significantly. And my DPS bard is really screwed.

Your math is flawed. A 70 str barb would have (70-10)/2 *1.5 (two handed weapon) from str. This would be 30*1.5= 45 not 30. The power attack number for two handed fighing is also wrong. I'll stop there, but that should give an indication of the degree of error here.

[EKKM]

So what would be the point of using TWF?

TWF costs:
1. Need double the amount of all weapons: crafted greensteel, vorpals, undead bashers etc. Expensive and very time-consuming (and takes up inventory space to boot).
2. Requires a natural 17 Dexterity to qualify for GTWF, 15 for TWF.
3. Need to buy three feats in the line to reap full benefits.
4. Gets minus to hit on all attacks

THF costs:
1. Need to buy three feats in the line to reap full benefits.

The advantage of TWF was higher DPS. That will now be gone. That makes TWF not only pointless, but actually stupid to take since there's only costs left (and severe ones!) and no benefits.

Agree, dps should definatly not be equal. To further scew the balance THF also has glancing blows.

How about leaving the TWF fighting chain alone, and change the haste bonuses in question to double strike bonuses?

Sounds like an easy first step instead of the huge undertaking this ounds like.

Not at all. If this nerfs my damage output at all I'm canceling my sub.

I'll even bet this doesn't help lag at all either.

Can I have your stuff?

A reduction of TWF is fine IMO, it is pretty far ahead of THF. The extent they are talking about here seems extreme though.

How about some numbers. 70 STR Greataxe Barb WF vs. 40 STR Khopesh Tempest III WF, both with lightning strike weapons vs non-dr, non-fort, non-resistant enemies with a pure warchanter available. Just comparing similarly geared up builds.

Over the course of 20 attack rolls:
Barb:
3d6 + 30[str] + 5[enh] + 9[bard] + 11[power attack] = 66.5 base damage per non-crit attack
(66.5 + 3.5[shock] + 3.5[shock burst] + 12[lightning strike]) * 17 non-crits = 1453.5
(66.5*5 + 3.5 + 3.5 + 27.5[shock burst] + 27.5[shocking blast] + 12) * 2 crits = 813
+14 on nat-20
= 2280.5
= 114 average per swing

Tempest:
1d10 + 15[str] + 5[enh] + 9[bard] + 8[power attack] = 42.5 base per main hand
1d10 + 7[str] + 5[enh] + 9[bard] + 8[power attack] = 34.5 base per off hand
(42.5 + 3.5 + 3.5 + 12) * 15 non-crit main hand = 922.5
(34.5 + 3.5 + 3.5 + 12) * 15 * .85 non-crit off hand = 682.12
(42.5*3 + 3.5 + 3.5 + 16.5 +16.5 + 12) * 4 crit main hand = 718
(34.5*3 + 3.5 + 3.5 + 16.5 +16.5 + 12) * 4 * .85 crit off hand = 528.7
+14 nat-20 main hand
+14 * .85 nat-20 off hand
= 2877.22
= 143.85 average per swing/pair of swings

So, excluding glancing blows, Tempest is pretty far ahead. I'm not sure how to calculate them, but I don't think they make up 30 damage per swing against a single target.

I suspect a TWF fighter is screwed, though, unless Kensai pumps up double strike procs significantly. And my DPS bard is really screwed.

Thanks for the math +1

Good to see that TWF still does significantly more DPS than THF. I agree that non ranger monks and monks are SOL in the present format - this should be changed.

[GoldyGopher]

So to make sure I understand how this attack chain works…

A TWF Pally with GTWF makes a successful attack with the main hand, there is a 20%(?) chance that the character will get a second attack with the main hand and a 55% chance that the character will get an attack with the off hand.

So in theory in comparison to 100 swings in the current system the new system results in 87.5 swings in the new system.

The old system has for argument sake 965 computations (in range, attack, damage, applying damage) the new system 807 for the same number of attacks (even though there are additional computations for double strike and off hand percentages). I am sure the real numbers are much higher, I'm more interested in the percentage...

So your GTWF Paladin will lose at least 12.5% of their DPS to reduce computations by 17 percent.

[J1NG]

In many cases it will save pots. With the lag the way it is the only way to keep parties alive is to overheal constantly as you have no way of telling what health anyone is actually on. In TOD yesterday someone died but it didnt show up that they were dead on the health bars untill about 10-15 seconds later.

Of course only if it stops the dps lag. ;-p

It will only save pots if the bosses and enemies are nerfed too. Less HP and/or Less damage they can do. Otherwise, with the loss the DPS is suffering, more SP is needed to keep everyone up, so more pots needed in Raids.

J1NG

[Potvin]

So your GTWF Paladin will lose at least 12.5% of their DPS to reduce computations by 17 percent.

Paladins are always all about the sacrifice for others...

/salute

[Dylos_Moon]

Double strike is NOT more or less the same as an offhand strike.

Right now you have a 100% chance of "double" striking with an offhand strike. Do you get double ToDs now? Or double stunning fist?

Currently, both stunning fist and tod break your attack chain and restrict you to 1 attack, you don't get double anything when using either of these abilities.

You don't get double trips now, but eladrin said you would with offhand strikes, hence why I was asking weather or not a proc'd offhand strike would also be a stunning fist if the first attack was a stunning fist, and hence why eladrin mentioned tod both double striking with double strike and offhand strikes.

So yes, as far as I can tell, Double strike is identical to offhand strikes for unarmed monks.

[SolarDawning]

Having read the entire thread now, here's my "instinctive feedback".

This will change a lot of things.

Heh, okay, I'll get a little more specific...
The social dynamic of the game will change. There's already a large portion of the community which demands that everyone they associate with play only the "best" class/build. This type of person berates others for not doing so. With the proposed changes, that'll pretty much be a THF barbarian. This worries me a little.

Rangers: They'll still be top TWF DPS'ers, and I don't really see a problem with that. Yes, they take a big hit, but they're still on the top of the pile, as Tempest should be.

Monks: Wind Stance will be the only viable stance at all after this change. Currently, it's seen to be that way also, however the changes will put it even further into the lead. No-one will ever want to switch to another stance and lose 20% of their extra offhand attacks. If this goes in, the other three stances need to be looked at.

(Question: Eladrin mentioned something about extra procs with Touch of Death? Could this be clarified, please? Currently ToD does not trigger on the offhand strike. In the new system, would it have the offhand chance of doing so, for two Touch of Death hits? If so, that might go a long way towards minimizing the DPS impact for monks.)

Paladin and Fighter: Currently, paladins and fighters are seen as effective with either TWF or THF. This change will make TWF paladin/fighters a laughingstock. They'll be berated by other players for making a non-optimal choice, until they switch to two-handed fighting.

On the other hand, we as players need to understand that sometimes we have to bite the bullet and take a nerf for the continued good of the game as a whole. If this really helps, I'm all for it.

[Thrudh]

I definitely agree with everyone else who said you should make one change at a time..

Start with removing the physics check for the off-hand... see how that goes...

Then add the double-strike to replace 10% speed boosts...

I'd look at replacing haste boosts with double-strikes as well...

Nerfing off-hand twf as much as you are seems a bit much...

[Grendyll]

How about some numbers. 70 STR Greataxe Barb WF vs. 40 STR Khopesh Tempest III WF, both with lightning strike weapons vs non-dr, non-fort, non-resistant enemies with a pure warchanter available. Just comparing similarly geared up builds.

Over the course of 20 attack rolls:
Barb:
3d6 + 30[str] + 5[enh] + 9[bard] + 11[power attack] = 66.5 base damage per non-crit attack
(66.5 + 3.5[shock] + 3.5[shock burst] + 12[lightning strike]) * 17 non-crits = 1453.5
(66.5*5 + 3.5 + 3.5 + 27.5[shock burst] + 27.5[shocking blast] + 12) * 2 crits = 813
+14 on nat-20
= 2280.5
= 114 average per swing

Tempest:
1d10 + 15[str] + 5[enh] + 9[bard] + 8[power attack] = 42.5 base per main hand
1d10 + 7[str] + 5[enh] + 9[bard] + 8[power attack] = 34.5 base per off hand
(42.5 + 3.5 + 3.5 + 12) * 15 non-crit main hand = 922.5
(34.5 + 3.5 + 3.5 + 12) * 15 * .85 non-crit off hand = 682.12
(42.5*3 + 3.5 + 3.5 + 16.5 +16.5 + 12) * 4 crit main hand = 718
(34.5*3 + 3.5 + 3.5 + 16.5 +16.5 + 12) * 4 * .85 crit off hand = 528.7
+14 nat-20 main hand
+14 * .85 nat-20 off hand
= 2877.22
= 143.85 average per swing/pair of swings

So, excluding glancing blows, Tempest is pretty far ahead. I'm not sure how to calculate them, but I don't think they make up 30 damage per swing against a single target.

I suspect a TWF fighter is screwed, though, unless Kensai pumps up double strike procs significantly. And my DPS bard is really screwed.

You need to learn how to compute glancing blows then. Even against a single target, a glancing blow will proc against that one target doing about 30% of base damage and having chance to proc the added damage as well. 30% of base in your calc is about 22. Not very far behind any more is it? There is a reason 2HF currently dominates epic and elite play levels.

[stazer]

so I just reread the title of this post...

are you seriously delaying update 5 to do this?

really?

Theres all kinds of interesting stuff to be thrown in to the game and this is going to lamania/lamania testing/qa...and your seriously delaying update 5 for this?

at least that's what the post title implies. Did I miss a post that does not indicate that you guys are not going to make us wait another year for an update?

[bendover]

This is a pretty intelligent idea. Hmm, let's think for a second. What causes dps lag?? Well I guess it's dps. How can we help prevent the players from getting this dps lag?? Oh, that's right remove dps. This is silly.

[Luis_Velderve]

Weird, I always thought that's what the attack roll was.


I'm not seeing any issues with the actual process being used, but the reduced damage is going to anger a lot of people.

CORRECT!! That is the meaning of an attack roll, no good roll no opening!

[bobbryan2]

So to make sure I understand how this attack chain works…

A TWF Pally with GTWF makes a successful attack with the main hand, there is a 10% chance that the character will get a second attack with the main hand and a 55% chance that the character will get an attack with the off hand.

So in theory in comparison to 100 swings in the current system the new system results in 87.5 swings in the new system.

The old system has for argument sake 965 computations (in range, attack, damage, applying damage) the new system 807 for the same number of attacks (even though there are additional computations for double strike and off hand percentages). I am sure the real numbers are much higher, I'm more interested in the percentage...

So your GTWF Paladin will lose at least 12.5% of their DPS to reduce computations by 17 percent.

There ya go.

[Thrudh]

Paladins are always all about the sacrifice for others...

/salute

LOL... nice...