Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[bobbryan2]

So since monks will have a change to double strike with Touch of Death, or get an off hand strike with Touch of Death (aren't they the same in the monk's case?), would this change also include monks being able to use Touch of Death with weapons - for example, shortswords if they are a ninja spy?

Also, does this mean that a monk in wind stance IV with Weighted 5% handwraps that uses stunning fist would get a chance to proc weighted stun on their main attack as well as stunning fist and then a chance to proc an offhand attack with the same chance of weighted stun as well as stunning fist, resulting in approx a 17% chance to stun on a stunning fist attempt made with weighted handwraps even with 0 DC?

Monks do NOT get a chance to double strike unless they're multiclassed with another class that gets double strikes.

[EKKM]

ill go ahead and say it


DoOOOoooooOMMMMMmmm!

Wow three whole pages

Fantastic post! Really great detail and honesty.

Well, there are few things here....

1. Reducing lag by dropping the physical detection on the off hand
Great idea! I'm all for it.

2. Changing attack speed bumps to double hit chances.
Also a great idea, I'm all for it.

I can definitely see how this reduces lag and server load, and also makes for a better game feedback system. Great ideas. It also is a great mechanic you can use to target specific characters having issues or needing a boost. Be sure to be clear on stacking... use typed bonus names?

3. Nerfing two weapon fighting by changing the effective dps of the off hand attacks... aka GTWF was +100% swings and now is less than that...
Perhaps biting off more than you want to chew just now...

Yes there DPS difference is there, but it would be better to bring others up (sword and board especially) than to bring TWF guys down. Of course you expect opposition here no doubt. But its not like mobs don't have enough hit points, taking characters down a notch doesn't solve that much disparity. I find things decently balanced in game except for shield users who still have a hard time justifying life in a party unless they are coated in raid gear.

I'll take the nerf and smile, it doesn't bother me much personally but you know that folks invested a lot in these characters so be sure to make them feel like they are still getting value for their build choices.

I can remember being a ranger and being unable to find groups because you weren't seen as a dps source. Slowly the mind set changed and rangers were accepted into groups. Then the WOP nerf hit (which I support, it should have happened) and twf took a big hit. Now you want to decrease the amount of damage rangers do and send them back into exile?

Monks are just starting to gain acceptance in high level content, being seen as a source of DPS (be it less than almost every other class) and as an asset to groups and your going to knock them down now too?

With the system the way it is you see a wide variety of builds. After this TWF nerf (lets call it what it is) all we are going to see are half-orc THF barbs with epic SOS running around.


Reduce lag by reducing the number of dice rolls?

I Love It. With some of the suggestions in the posts, you can drastically reduce the number of dice rolls tied to every attack and reduce the overall lag.

Changing attack speed to double strike?

I don't like it, but will accept it. I like my ranger and monk being able to swing/punch faster than my barb but I can justify the change mentally from a flavor perspective.

Changing off hand attacks for ALL TWF builds?

Hate it, your going to kill classes and drive away subscribers.

I think you will see that most of the DDO populous will accept changes #1 and #2. But change #3 and you will have a very unhappy demographic of your player base. I for one don't want to see another mass exodus of players because you are taking all the hard work they put into their toons, and all the enjoyment they get out of playing them, away. TWF isn't game breaking, so please don't break IT .

I agree with Sigtrent and Gringo.

You are doing two things here, doing QA on these changes individually will not be easy, trying to do both at once will be near impossible IMO. Even if they go live at the same time, roll them into Lammania at different times (and don't try to do this in mod 5 - bad things will happen if changes are required). Personally, I think the physics dedection reduction is the more important so would recommend that first.

Also while TWF dioes do superior damage to THF, that should be the case. a 25% dps hit though probably is in excess of what is required.

Also, no class should be so much better than another at TWF than what is proposed. I would suggest that the incremental benefits tempests and windstanced monks get under the proposed should be reduced or changed for some other type of bonus (double strike as well maybe?).

[stazer]

So what would be the point of using TWF?

TWF costs:
1. Need double the amount of all weapons: crafted greensteel, vorpals, undead bashers etc. Expensive and very time-consuming (and takes up inventory space to boot).
2. Requires a natural 17 Dexterity to qualify for GTWF, 15 for TWF.
3. Need to buy three feats in the line to reap full benefits.
4. Gets minus to hit on all attacks

THF costs:
1. Need to buy three feats in the line to reap full benefits.

The advantage of TWF was higher DPS. That will now be gone. That makes TWF not only pointless, but actually stupid to take since there's only costs left (and severe ones!) and no benefits.

THIS is a big deal.

So I see you offering +5 hearts of wood in the store, as you posted this ner...errr...fix...I guess I should buy them now then so I can respec my toons...any chance of getting a free +20 heart of wood though...save me a few bucks with your fix? Ill probably just go with the cookie cutter barbarian wielding a great axe. Ive seen 1 or 2 builds about those extremely difficult to construct characters. Lots of thought goes into those fo sho!

[Siskel]

I guess this will mean clerics and fvs will need to use more pots on some raids since the boss will take longer to kill.

[Thrudh]

there's a difference between a "check" and a "roll". the physics check is determining "is there an enemy in the way of my weapon". To perform that check, they probably compare coordinates of both people considering weapon type and facing.
A roll is much simpler, computationally speaking.

You're also forgetting:

removal of the .15 second timer/procedure request (we don't know which it is) between physics checks.

I have reservations about the % chance of off-hand strikes thing (ie: the nerf), but the other parts of the proposition (replacing some alacrity with double strikes, removing redundant physics check) sound great to me.

Exactly... removing a physics check seems like it would help a lot... The rest of it seems a bit much, but I'll reserve my opinion after live testing

[KRaNiX1337]

Wow, so, heres a genuine questions to the developers. Can you please define exactly what is causing the lag in the shroud, and whether its server side, server to client net lag, or client side.

Once we have a definite answer on what is truely causing the lag, maybe just mabye we will be informed enough to give you an answer.

As of right now this is what I see as causing the lag, dice rolls. Not total DPS, not the damage per swing. But the dice rolls and sending that info on to the clients.

Heres my suggestion, remove collision detection all together, and go to actual simple reach radius, just like actual pnp, if im standing beside the mob, ie within weapon reach, and swinging, assume im facing the guy and swinging at him, especially when hes my selected target.

for TWF, 5ft, small ring, THF, 10ft, bigger reach. If im within that ring of the mob, have him targeted, and am swinging, just assume im colliding and completely remove the need to add collision rolls. For actual DPS dice rolls, there was a terrible idea to just condense each round to one dice roll of each type. Thats horrid, one ****** d6 roll and you hit for 10 damage instead of 45.

Even fixed average rolls for damage would be 10000000 times better than reusing ****** rolls.

For fixing dice rolls, switch the game back to the whole one round every 6 seconds, fixed attacks per round, and modify the HPs of the mobs to match. Nerf one, nerf it all. Dont nerf 50%.

The only other solution? Dont send us all that crappy un-needed data that actually causes the lag, just send us the total damage per swing and the total modifier to hit. Its nice knowing what makes up a swing, but come on, if its bad for the game, go ahead and remove it.

Hell, you could just make the reduced client/server communication applicable to ToD and shroud, where DPS lag actually occurs, and only during peak hours. And while you are at it, remove the true lag causers in the shroud, those STUPID blades. Lag doesnt kick in part 5 until they spawn. and part 4 is always terrible, when theres 4-6 blades spinning round needlessly.

[Creeper]

Remember when grazing hits were put in the game to "make it easier for new players to hit things"?

[ViolentEnd]

Remember when grazing hits were put in the game to "make it easier for new players to hit things"?

Ahh yes this

[JayDubya]

The biggest concern I have is if you make these changes, and the DPS lag doesn't go away. Then you get a lot of _really_ angry people.

Can you code this logic in such a way that you can switch back to the current model fairly quickly?

Then, once the new logic goes live, let it run for a few weeks - if it seems to make a big difference in DPS lag, then there's a case for keeping it.

But if it doesn't seem to make a difference, then perhaps we could switch back to the current logic while you continue to research the issue.

[bobbryan2]

Exactly... removing a physics check seems like it would help a lot... The rest of it seems a bit much, but I'll reserve my opinion after live testing

What is live testing going to tell you other than a "gut feeling."

In this case, since we're given the actual numbers, theory is far more accurate than the gut feeling you'll get from playing with it.

[dkyle]

How about some numbers. 70 STR Greataxe Barb WF vs. 40 STR Khopesh Tempest III WF, both with lightning strike weapons vs non-dr, non-fort, non-resistant enemies with a pure warchanter available. Just comparing similarly geared up builds.

Over the course of 20 attack rolls:
Barb:
3d6 + 45[str] + 5[enh] + 9[bard] + 22[power attack] = 91.5 base damage per non-crit attack
(91.5 + 3.5[shock] + 3.5[shock burst] + 12[lightning strike] + 3.5*6) * 17 non-crits = 2235.5
(91.5*5 + 3.5 + 3.5 + 27.5[shock burst] + 27.5[shocking blast] + 12 + 3.5*6) * 2 crits = 1105
+14 on nat-20
(+91.5 * .3) * .75 * 19 = 391.1625 glancing blows
= 3745.6625

Tempest:
1d10 + 15[str] + 5[enh] + 9[bard] + 8[power attack] + 2[Ram's] + 8[favored] = 52.5 base per main hand
1d10 + 7[str] + 5[enh] + 9[bard] + 8[power attack] + 2[Ram's] +8[favored] = 44.5 base per off hand
(52.5 + 3.5 + 3.5 + 12) * 15 non-crit main hand = 1072.5
(55.5 + 3.5 + 3.5 + 12) * 15 * .85 non-crit off hand = 949.87
(52.5*3 + 3.5 + 3.5 + 16.5 +16.5 + 12) * 4 crit main hand = 838
(55.5*3 + 3.5 + 3.5 + 16.5 +16.5 + 12) * 4 * .85 crit off hand = 742.9
+14 nat-20 main hand
+14 * .85 nat-20 off hand
= 3629.17

Tempest is worse, and requires twice as many Larges. TWF Fighter is probably screwed without ram's might, favored, and only 55% offhand rate. 10% double strike is not going to make up for that.

EDIT: Messed up barbarian calculation. Forgot double bonus from power attack, and 1.5 STR bonus.
EDIT: added Ram's Might, Favored Enemy, FB vicious damage, Glancing blows (30% base 75% of the time)

[Evilp3nquin]

So what would be the point of using TWF?

TWF costs:
1. Need double the amount of all weapons: crafted greensteel, vorpals, undead bashers etc. Expensive and very time-consuming (and takes up inventory space to boot).
2. Requires a natural 17 Dexterity to qualify for GTWF, 15 for TWF.
3. Need to buy three feats in the line to reap full benefits.
4. Gets minus to hit on all attacks

THF costs:
1. Need to buy three feats in the line to reap full benefits.

The advantage of TWF was higher DPS. That will now be gone. That makes TWF not only pointless, but actually stupid to take since there's only costs left (and severe ones!) and no benefits.

I agree. if this change takes effet it would make TWF builds totally broke and useless.

[Slorgs]

Besides, between you and me, they are most likely going this route not only to boost store revenue with the purchases of hearts of wood from respecs, but also to re-validate the jobs of many developers who may have to justify their positions after the recent WB purchase.

Wow. Just wow.

The developer that figures out how to slap a server on in such a way as to solve all performance problems in any given system will never need to work again.

If only I had a theoretical super computing cloud.

[Dylos_Moon]

Monks do NOT get a chance to double strike unless they're multiclassed with another class that gets double strikes.

As I said, in a monk's case, a double strike (unarmed atleast, and 95% of monks are unarmed) is more or less the same as an offhand strike. And yes, they do have a chance to double strike, that chance is 0%.

[Goolan]

I have no problem with changing the TWF mechanics. It will be painful, though, because TWF's are the whiniest bunch in the game.

But it seems that we are dancing around the real problem. I have gone many, many months without any significant lag problems. The problems only started AFTER THE WEDNESDAY MAINTENANCE. I have talked to many others and the results were the same. Something was done, during that maintenance, that caused these lag problems. That one little "something" needs to be routed out and eliminated. We were perfectly happy with the game play on the Tuesday Night before the downtime....so put it back to there.

[Valiance]

Big fan of using only 1 physics detection check for both mainhand and offhand swings.

Big hater of all the rest of this.

I raid ALL the time and honestly the lag is not that bad. Maybe my system is just better than most but I honestly haven't had that much of a problem.

This is a MASSIVE nerf to two weapon fighting that just isn't needed. Seems like you're biting off WAY more than you can chew.

No big deal to me anyway I barely play anymore though so...meh...maybe this will just push me out the door completely.

V

[Thrudh]

a physics check isn't a single roll..

No, it's a calculation, which is why I said roll/calculation...

..to say that it is as computationally simple as a percentage roll is false.

Where did I say that?

You did say that... you said 4 rolls\calculations = 4 rolls\calculations... but a physics calculation involves many more variables... 1 calculation/3 rolls is less than 2 calculations\2 rolls

[nicro]

Has there been any consideration to attack the PRNG used for these calculations?

[LupusVai]

I guess this will mean clerics and fvs will need to use more pots on some raids since the boss will take longer to kill.

In many cases it will save pots. With the lag the way it is the only way to keep parties alive is to overheal constantly as you have no way of telling what health anyone is actually on. In TOD yesterday someone died but it didnt show up that they were dead on the health bars untill about 10-15 seconds later.

Of course only if it stops the dps lag. ;-p

[J1NG]

We need a base where we can actually test this without affecting live play. Lamannia is the best place.

But... I really hate beating a dead horse, but... only VIP's. Which won't be everyone. Then we'll be getting the 5th animation loss debacle again.

Let non-VIP's go in with any toon they copy over on Lamannia please! There are people willing to help. But can't because we're not VIP.

J1NG