Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Laith]

TWF currently, two swings - one main hand, one off hand:

2 Physics checks

2 Attack rolls

TWF proposed, two swings - one main hand, one off hand (assuming you proc your off hand):

1 Physics check

2 Attack rolls

1 percentage roll (to determine off hand proc)


So, 4 rolls/calculations in either case...

But wait, if you don't proc your off hand then it's one less calculation!

That's worth giving up 0-50% of your DPS, right?

Wrong.

there's a difference between a "check" and a "roll". the physics check is determining "is there an enemy in the way of my weapon". To perform that check, they probably compare coordinates of both people considering weapon type and facing.
A roll is much simpler, computationally speaking.

You're also forgetting:

removal of the .15 second timer/procedure request (we don't know which it is) between physics checks.

I have reservations about the % chance of off-hand strikes thing (ie: the nerf), but the other parts of the proposition (replacing some alacrity with double strikes, removing redundant physics check) sound great to me.

[DaggomaticDwarf]

Ok let me get this staight for years you have been unable to figure out the lag issues? So your proposal is to once again drop the "N" bomb on sum of the funnest char to play with in DDO ??? Why is it always the same equation of Fix = Nerf ????????

And for the record thats a big fat

/NOT SIGNED

[Eladiun]

Thank you for the reply but TAKE THE TIME TO DO IT RIGHT! It is not just about how quickly you can make changes, it is about how quickly you can make the right changes and improve the performance of the game and keep DDO alive and prosperous at the same time. If this change is not going to be ready in time for Update 5, don't push it through rapidly and make the wrong choices in the interest of time to market...

Agreed. We have lived with the lag this long....if it takes 9 months to do it right do it right.

[Thrudh]

Near same speed? They lost 10% attack speed from Tempest I and that 5th off-hand attack from Tempest III (~-21% attack speed).

Fighter Alacrity and Zeal no longer have attack speed bonuses. They just have double-attack +10%, which only works on the main hand weapon.

Fighter Alacrity and Zeal aren't that bad... You go from 10% total DPS boost to 10% boost on main hand only... but main hand gets full strength bonus, and off-hand didn't, so you're probably dropping from 10% DPS boost to 7% DPS boost with Fighter capstone and Zeal...

Tempest I is a HUGE change... You go from 10% total DPS boost to 10% bonus to off-hand procs... Since off-hand swings are no longer 100% with GTWF AND off-hand swings get 1/2 of the strength bonus... this really destroys Tempest I...

However, it must be said that 6 ranger was ridiculously overpowered anyway... what with the 10% speed (equal to abilities a fighter gets at 20, or paladin at 14), plus all the nice spells and feats a ranger gets by 6th level.

[Razcar]

I won’t hide that these proposed changes do reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting. [...]estimated damage output over time for the two styles should be extremely close to each other if we go this route.

So what would be the point of using TWF?

TWF costs:
1. Need double the amount of all weapons: crafted greensteel, vorpals, undead bashers etc. Expensive and very time-consuming (and takes up inventory space to boot).
2. Requires a natural 17 Dexterity to qualify for GTWF, 15 for TWF.
3. Need to buy three feats in the line to reap full benefits.
4. Gets minus to hit on all attacks

THF costs:
1. Need to buy three feats in the line to reap full benefits.

The advantage of TWF was higher DPS. That will now be gone. That makes TWF not only pointless, but actually stupid to take since there's only costs left (and severe ones!) and no benefits.

[Visty]

the thread was closed because its silly to have more then 1 thread about that

if ppl want to comment, they can post here

[Siskel]

How about leaving the TWF fighting chain alone, and change the haste bonuses in question to double strike bonuses?

[EyeRekon]

Its not really that EyeRekon, its also the com time from your client to the server across... you know... the whole internet. The process of matching where your character swings to where the monster happens to be at that moment is the problem and while that takes cycles it also takes comm time which is far slower. Halving that time is a big gain that no amount of cloud can solve.

Which leads me to my latest post. Comm is certainly a factor, but many mission-critical, realtime systems do use networks for communication of events already. It is neither a new or unsolvable problem. The same communication path of client-internet-server-internet-client exists and applies to the proposed solution just as well. The cloud wouldn't at all change "the process of matching where your character swings to where the monster happens to be at that moment." All that changes is where that processing is being done. If anything a separate combat server does somewhat address the comm factor by moving to a less-trafficked path.

I do appreciate the effort and discussion.

[grodon9999]

bit exaggerating, no?

Not at all. If this nerfs my damage output at all I'm canceling my sub.

I'll even bet this doesn't help lag at all either.

[Magnyr_Delorn]

As someone who doesn't care one way or the other(it won't change how I play), I just want to say that I really appreciate you taking the time to get the communities feedback on an issue in this format Eladrin, and I hope you continue to do it like this in the future. Color me impressed.

[Strakeln]

One of the major issues that we’ve been working on is the dps lag problem in high level content (especially raid content).

Nice timing...

[Dylos_Moon]

So since monks will have a change to double strike with Touch of Death, or get an off hand strike with Touch of Death (aren't they the same in the monk's case?), would this change also include monks being able to use Touch of Death with weapons - for example, shortswords if they are a ninja spy?

Also, does this mean that a monk in wind stance IV with Weighted 5% handwraps that uses stunning fist would get a chance to proc weighted stun on their main attack as well as stunning fist and then a chance to proc an offhand attack with the same chance of weighted stun as well as stunning fist, resulting in approx a 17% chance to stun on a stunning fist attempt made with weighted handwraps even with 0 DC?

[mboger]

So if I'm understanding this correctly, if this is implemented, a monk in Wind4 will have 25% fewer offhand attacks and 20% overall slower attack speed then they currently have.

Why stop there, Turbine? Let's make monks take a vow of poverty and cap their bankroll at 10 plat! Hey, aren't monk supposed to be peaceful? Let's not let them attack unless they are hit first! I'm sure there are plenty of things you can think of to make sure monks are never allowed into raids again!

[die]

sorry im not atech guy whats this mean.1. Don't install DDO on your system partition or the partition where you keep your main swap file. This causes contention during disc access which can lag out on-the-fly loading of assets from the dat files.

[Steiner-Davion]

Just anything with random chance tends to be more against me than for me. How it is currently, you get that guaranteed attack roll with an off-hand.

That is my biggest reservation as well.

[jadenkorr]

1) Using 1 physics check for 1 round of attacks is a clever, novel way of reducing load on system resources, bravo.

2) Chance for offhand proc, instead of being predetermined, I say no. I do not buy the ''sometimes there is an opening, sometimes there is not'' argument. Are you going to add in a miss chance for THF as well, since ''sometimes there are openings, sometimes there are not''? Very bad justification. Attack bonus represents how skillful a character is at getting past his opponent's defenses (AC). As your character levels, BAB increases, representing his increase in skill. If you are a Level 20 character, would you be ''missing'' attacks on a CR1 Zombie or CR2 Bandit? If you are significantly more skilled than your opponent, you will be able to create openings and take advantage of them. The current attack bonus versus AC system works fine and is representative of the blocking/parrying/dodging/creating openings that exist in real combat. Reducing dps lag by reducing dps is not the solution.

3) Keep the system performance changes and balance changes separate please. Especially so if this will only reduce dps lag, and not completely eliminate it. Its a key point. If I still have dps lag, AND twf dps is nerfed, needless to say, there will be many angry customers.

4) I have always had the impression that THF = more damage in crowds, and TWF = more damage on single targets. The feats work that way. If you wanted to bring TWF more in line with THF in terms of dps, I still think that TWF should deal more damage. It costs more feats, and 2 times the ingredients to craft weapons. Im not certain how much more dps TWF is over THF, but im quite sure its not that significant as to justify this major nerf to TWF dps.

[NegRepped]

Paging Angelus_Dead . . . . . .

A_D, please sift through this thread and provide your thoughts.

[bobbryan2]

So... the other part that confuses me is:

In order to actively avoid nerfing equipment... you instead nerf a fighting style that applies to probably more than 50% of existing melees?

If you changed the way greensteel works... it would affect everyone equally.

And equipment changes aren't that big of a deal if you just make a quick deconstruction tidbit (which will need to go in with this change anyway).

[ddoplayer064]

So what I am seeing is all three characters I play (Warchanter, TWF Pally, Monster) are going to take a 20% - 25% damage hit. Sweet, sign me up...

[Seosamh]

a physics check isn't a single roll..

No, it's a calculation, which is why I said roll/calculation...

..to say that it is as computationally simple as a percentage roll is false.

Where did I say that?

It's probably a comparison of coordinates that takes weapon size and facing into consideration.

Right, calculation..

You're also forgetting:

removal of the .15 second timer/procedure request (we don't know which it is) between physics checks.

I'm not forgetting, and we do know what it is:

Currently a single two weapon fighting attack makes a physics detection check with your main hand, followed by a second detection check for your off hand (roughly 0.15 seconds after the first one). Instead of making multiple physics checks, all two weapon fighting attacks (weapons or unarmed) would now make a single check for your main hand attack, and would “piggyback” on that detection check and have a chance to proc (trigger) an off-hand attack based on the number of two weapon fighting feats (or related enhancements) you possess...