Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[The_Phenx]

Wind Stance not being optimal for every fighting style isn't bad. We're considering doing something with Water Stance to make it a preferable staff stance, though Sun Stance's strength boost could also be appealing.

Sun stance is nice for str, but costs a lot.

1 less ac and 1 less S/A damage per hit.

I will wait and see what you come up with.. you have always been more than fair to staff weilders.

[Eladrin]

So basically instead of improving the servers communication to get rid of the dps lag you are just going to take the easy way out and nerf twfing

We're attacking the problem from many directions.

[Gnorbert]

So basically instead of improving the servers communication to get rid of the dps lag you are just going to take the easy way out and nerf twfing

Yesssss, I'm sure dealing with unhappy customers is "the easy way out".

/rolls eyes

[Cyr]

The size of the change necessary isn't within the scope of changes that we'd be able to make in the time frames we've got. No conspiracy.

Change those time frames then. You shouldn't be even thinking about trying to push this out quickly.

[die]

sorry, i have a very short att. span will my two lightning strikes proc on the off hand

[highlandar]

if ddo does this then PUT IN DECONSTRUCT , SO GET ALL INGREDIANTS BACK FOR HAVING GIMPED TOON FROM DDO MAKING DRASTIC CHANGES INSTEAD JUST FIXING ##$%$% PROBLEM. THIS WAY GET ALL INGREDIANTS BACK AND JUST USE TWF RANGER FOR STORAGE

[cdemeritt]

I want to see both "instinctive feedback" as well as actual gameplay feedback once it his Lamannia. I can't say when Lamannia will be going live with these changes (that's beyond my control), but I figured better to get this out early.

Since you asked for "instinctive feedback", I'll reply.... I'm sure this isn't going to be very helpful, but my stomach did flips when seeing your post.... While not certain this will really be the outcome, I read this as "We are going to reduce the DPS lag by reducing DPS". While reducing the lag is good, I am not a full numbers guy, and didn't really follow the post, it might be better, and even boost S&B some, I don't think it will go over well, probably worse than Dungeon Alerts...

[Thrudh]

So even with the hit to handwraps ... potentially 1000 damage on my attack? Sweet ...

Hey Shade, lets have a "single swing" contest ...

My halfling Dark Monk potentially kicks your FB butt ... If he could reach that high ...


lol

Heh, a TWF Paladin with Exalted Smite could potentially get three smites off for about 1500-1800 points of damage...

[Tarnoc]

ok so my toon isa lvl 12 ranger tempest 2 7 fighter kesai kopesh human one rogue...

i have oversized two weapon fighting and all the twf line from ranger.....

i dual wield many varieties of gs kopeshes.....max crits ive seen base damage from 160ish to 200ish favoured enemy.....each hand...

please explain wat this will mean to me

[cforce]

I think the system is interesting, and makes sense in general. However, the drastic damage nerf to most TWF builds seems to be pretty severe, and I don't see any indication from the technical reasons why the percentages are cranked so low. Trying to do apples-to-apples, the current feats would give:

TWF: 50% "deterministic chance" of offhand hooks
iTWF: 75%
gTWF: 100%

Cranking the contributions of these feats from 100% offhand hooks down to 55% seems ludicrous! Is TWF currently that overpowered?

Personally, I *just* did a LR on my Fighter 12/Pally 5/Rogue 2 to move him over *to* TWF. Turning around and giving him a 25% decrease in efficacy right after I respecced him would make me livid.

[TheJusticar]

Another thing...

This change makes obsolete many DPS characters, throws out years of greensteel grinding, and angers the playerbase. Many people have called for a two weapon fighting adjustment, but this, as described, simply throws the scales the other way.

And the worst thing is... this does not even promise to fix the lag problem.

At the end of the day, we'll have lag AND disillusionment...

At least Turbine makes more money with the hearts of wood store?

I disagree. All but one of my melee toons are TWF. Took a lot of effort to grind the materials in the last 2 years -- sure. Would I mind sacrificing a bit of DPS over time if there's a good chance it'll improve DPS lag (which at times can be right out brutal and the cause of party wipes)? You bet.

People need to stop a breath a few times before posting. I find it amazingly awesome they are seeking our feedback. This is NOT an announcement. This is a call for discussion which we all appreciate. Or would you rather them deal with it with Mournlanders only and then drop the bomb like they did with the Transmuting/WoP changes?

[Luis_Velderve]

If you reduce damage output, will you reduce mob's hitpoints,damage reduction,fortification ect.. in THE SAME proportionated way? If you require less swings to kill those HUGE calculation will reduce right?

There is a lot required to have a decent twf and the mechanics is PnP correct. Given that lag is a problem but if nerf is your solution ,a proportional overall nerf to foes is more than fair.

Maybe a twf with bastards and glancing blows will ease my pain! or what if you have a single weapon style feats with decent bonuses that will decrease the twf builds overall?

After all said I got to say that I think that Aesop will come with a fair solution.

[Visty]

hmm, just remembered i wanted to LR my THF mystic theurge to a TWF version...and as i play in europe LR hearts are **** rare as we only had a chance on the traveller hunt wihtout rebuying blessings

seems like i now have to wait out how this change impacts the game...and i already made my min2 and light2 DAs :/

[Valindria]

My gut feeling is I do not like this.

I have a twf Bard as my main, and level 10 acrobat(rogue/monk) and a Paladin (twf) that I am working on.

1. I like the full swing cycle, I don't want a % for my off hand to trigger.
2. I like seeing the effects of faster attacks.
3. The chance to attack an extra time with my main hand does not improve this feeling. I know there will be people who will do the numbers to see if the dps is close. I personally would rather not have this and keep the twf the same.
4. It is actually more complicated for Itwf/Gtwf. I like that every user with the three feats gets the same attack (no including bous to rangers)

I think you should do Remove physics check for offhands, and if possible make it something like this:

Eladrin,

If what is causing the lag is the number of dice being rolled at once why cant we start simplifying dice rolls to be much more efficient instead of changing the number of attacks everyone gets per second. Here is an example of maintaining randomness in on hit effects, but dropping the number of dice needed to achieve the calculation significantly.

A level 20 reincarnated monk is using a +5 Shocking(1d6) of Puregood(1d6) of Frost(1d6) handwrap, he has the Henshin Mystic monk set equipped(1d6) and is wearing a Red Dragonscale Robe(1d6) where his fists do 2d12 damage base, His TOD rings have 2d6 holy and 1d6 acid on them as well, and he hits his Stormstrike I(1d6) attack when he swings.

So his damage roll would be 1d6shock + 1d6good + 1d6frost + 1d6henshin + 1d6dragonscale + 1d6stormstrike + 2d6holy +1d6acid + 2d12base + 5 on every swing. That's 11 dice rolls every swing, but with a quick change we can drop that to 2 dice rolls every swing without taking away from that monks attack speed. What if the system simply rolled a single dice and applied it to all on hit effects of a weapon that involved that size dice roll.

For example the system simply rolled 1d6 and resulted in a 2, then rolled 1d12 and resulted in a 10. You could take that single number for each dice size and apply it to all effects. Thus it would deal 2shock + 2good + 2frost + 2henshin + 2dragonscale + 2stormstrike + 4holy +2acid + 20base + 5 = 43 damage

This simple change could result in up to 82% more cpu efficiency per attack to be made for some characters on every swing.

Correct me if I am wrong, but if a caster casts a fire wall and it crits, don't all hits of the wall count as crits? I wouldn't care if I rolled a +1-6 on all the same effects.

[TFPAQ]

Heh, a TWF Paladin with Exalted Smite could potentially get three smites off for about 1500-1800 points of damage...

Dude, your ruining my fun...

Didn't you see that all TWF Pallys need to switch over to THF Pallys ... everyone in the thread said so!

-jk

[EyeRekon]

So basically instead of improving the servers communication to get rid of the dps lag you are just going to take the easy way out and nerf twfing

That's more or less the point of my post as well.

[Slorgs]

Also, with their doubled subscription base, they could get better hardware that can handle the game. I really find it hard to believe that a computer can't handle processing 232 attacks/minute, but it can handle 116 attacks/minute just fine.

If only adding another server to the pile would solve all our problems! Wow, genius. Why hasn't anyone ever thought of that? We'll just buy a thousand more servers and throw them on the pile. It won't cost anything to put them up, maintain them, power them, support them etc.

The things that can affect performance are: system software (unix/windows/misc), DBMS software, Game software,
hardware, network, etc.

All the servers on the world won't solve many performance issues.

Also: I'm not sure why most people assume that epic SoS will never get fixed.

[MarcusCleardawn]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but

Wouldn't just combining the to hit and proximity rolls for Two Weapon Fighting deal substantially with the lag issue without having to nerf monks, tempest rangers etc. into oblivion?

This is a very heavy nerf to characters that have had a difficult time getting accepted to raid groups to begin with, and now it seems you're gutting them just as they gaining acceptance.

Perhaps it would be more prudent to deal with the lag issue first. Then deal with damage gap issues.

[sidgarret]

This is gonna be fun......

Im going to hold my final opinion until i see this for myself -but it dont sound good.

It have one nice bonus though - i dont have to see Barbarians next to me that look like they dropped a load in their pants (aka twitching) if they want glancing blows.

But it does not bode well for me. Have one Monster build TR with lots of equipment and a healing exploiter build as my other main char....

I guess time will tell. But i say one thing - if u nerf me to 100/55 on my monster and i have lag in shroud i wont be a happy bunny.

[bobbryan2]

So my analysis:

Rangers seem to be getting the best of it. Doublestrikes and near the same TWF speed.

Monks aren't terribly far behind... but have the unfortunate side effect of having wind stance nerfed badly... while at the same time making it completely essential for TWF. Before I could sit in sun stance to gain ki... but now that would drop me back down to 55% proc rate on off hand. Terrible.

Kensai... ok... we get it. You want them to be THF.

Barbarians already got that memo.

Paladins got hit really hard by this. Went from 100% chance of double smite to a 55% chance of double smite with stat investment and 3 feats. I can't see that as a good trade off. I really think falchion paladins took a big step forward.

Rogues... yeesh. Rogues got nothing out of this other than smack downs. No double strikes, no increased off hand percentages... nothing but slaps.

Ouch.