Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Primalhowl]

A few comments.

First, I would point out for all those worried about the rush to test that based on Eladrin's comments, it appears that this is being put on to Lammania along side but not part of Update 5 for testing. Please clarify if I am wrong.

Next, I think that the change to offhand swing percentages is a good change as long as they can be balanced correctly. While this is not PnP, it is (supposedly) based on the d20 3.5 ruleset, in which a character with BAB of +16 and TWF,ITWF,GTWF would get 4 main hand attacks and 3 offhand attacks per round. Translated to this new system, a vanilla full BAB character with all three feats should have a 75% chance to proc an offhand attack, rather than the 55% Eladrin has shown. This could effectively push Tempest III rangers and Wind IV monks to 100% if done correctly, leaving the two groups who should be spinning balls of hurt as spinning balls of hurt.

I also feel it is a bad comparison to pick the acknowledged top end overpowered eSOS as a THF comparison to TWF rather than greensteel as 1)it is not nearly as common as greensteel weapons, and 2)it can only be used at lvl 20 whereas greensteel THF is available at level 12ish(?). In addition, using frenzied berserker as a means to justify the power of THF is also somewhat flawed as it is not available to a large number of THF builds. Arguably, TWF outpaces THF from level 12 to level 19 (18 in the case of FBs) when greensteel weapons are available. So I think a little balancing can be tolerated.

[Vua]

Well I'm happy we are actually getting a warning this time instead of the combat speed nerf fiasco we went through last time. Honestly I'm not a huge fan of playing twf builds. I have some, but I always liked the combat of thf better. Maybe some upward damage adjustments for twf could help balance some of the loss they are about to get hit with. Maybe something like mainhand gets 1.5x your damage modifier and offhand gets your regular damage modifier. That or up the damage from power attack when twf. No reason to stick to the rules any longer.

[TheJusticar]

Of course, I would highly suggest play testing it to death (and I mean a lot of focused QA/QC and player involvement) before implementing this sytem wide.

I agree with this proposed approach for three reasons:

1. Bringing the DoT of TWF and THF closer together.
2. Adding an extra roll of the die for extra procs (I like when lady luck is involved).
3. I can see how this system could circumvent a huge number of calculations and thus could be causing DPS lag.

[bloodyrag]

deconstruction of greensteel here would have to be a must if these changes are introduced. how many toons that have crafted greensteels for 2wf are going to no longer be a viable 2wf toon. why should they then have to accept because your engine cant do the computations fast enuff have to suffer years of grinding for those toons wasted.

[jkm]

Many Paladins are likely to want to TWF as well. Anyone that has bonus "on-hit" effects, whether it be sneak attack or actual effects.

actually this is wrong. in just doing a little math here, it looks like anyone with constant effects like sneak attack/kensai are going to lose out. however, anyone with a clicky attack is going to get a ton more benefit.

i understand what you are doing here and i agree with the methodology. however, this is going to drop rogue and 2wf kensai dps by 20% or so.

[Consumer]

BALLS

Yesterday I TRed into a TWF pally.

[Eladrin]

Color me confused then. Why in the world is this not being implemented as a double strike add and an off hand hook add of equal percentage to the speed boost to maintain the same dps, but remove the extra physics checks?

We did consider making that change, actually, but left them alone to keep their unique flavor for the Rogues and Fighters.

If I'm reading right, monks do not get double strike so no

If you acquired a double strike effect from somewhere, then yes, Touch of Death could double strike (and trigger an off hand attack) for a total of three attacks. You may have to wait for the next tier of Warchanter though.

That way air stance is viable to all fighting styles.

Wind Stance not being optimal for every fighting style isn't bad. We're considering doing something with Water Stance to make it a preferable staff stance, though Sun Stance's strength boost could also be appealing.

[Tharlak]

Currently -
Monk Air stances now grant a +5%/+10%/+15%/+20% insight bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks instead of an insight bonus to attack speed. (Enhancement bonus to attack speed remains.)

Change to -
Monk Air stances now grant a +5%/+10%/+15%/+20% insight bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks instead of an insight bonus to attack speed. (Enhancement bonus to attack speed remains.) AND Monk Air stances now grant a +5%/+10%/+15%/+20% insight bonus to the chance to proc a double strike when using a two handed weapon.

This is exactly what I would like to see.

[Irinis]

Whoa, can't believe some people are saying that nerfing TWF would be fine as long as we get greensteel deconstruction! It's not fine.

Gut reaction:
Double strike = cool
TWF nerf = horrible

Thoughtful reaction:
Double strike song for warchanters = you'd better have something equally good for the other two PrEs
TWF nerf = Why for the love of God why? First you nerf AC by making it meaningless in Epics and then you nerf TWF? This is not going to be fun. I'd rather players hold off on DPS during lag situations than have everything permanently nerfed whether it's a laggy situation or not.

I wonder if WoW has implemented those changes to make it less grindy yet... I might have to go check it out if DDO's going to completely change the very combat mechanic that brought me to love the game.

[Hutoth]

Attaching the offhand attack to the mainhand is a smart way to reduce lag, but reducing two weapon fighting's DPS by 25% is a problem for me.

The game was getting quite balanced between two-handed and two weapon fighting for most classes, with clear advantages in both. Two weapon fighting gave the vanilla baseline character an advantage, but it cost far more to maintain. Fighting multiple monsters with Greater Two Handed Fighting quickly changed that balance enough to matter. Class/race bonuses & equipment propped up two handed fighting to beat out that baseline on a large number of builds. Many weapons besides khopeshes were finally getting some use. Scimitar & falchion enhancements, favored soul favored weapons, ranger bow & arcane archer enhancements -- all of these were shaking things up. I have never seen the game this balanced (and varied) in that respect.

This change brings too many unintended nerfs to classes that simply don't deserve it. A small change in power is one thing, but I can think of dozens of builds that simply need to go reroll because they took lines like Kensei or Monks at face value, assuming the theme would keep them afloat even as the game changed.

I don't know what more to say. In all the time I have played DDO ... through "mod 9 coming soon" and Dungeon Alert and epic and everything else, nothing has really fazed my desire to keep pushing the norms and keeping things fresh in DDO. The way this change was implemented leaves me very, very disappointed.

/signed

[Boromirs]

WAIT, SOMEONE JUST COME OUT AND SAY IT?!

IS THIS A LAG FIX? OR IS IT A TWF NERF?

Im reading more and more and Im starting to get anxious that this is a TWF nerf... someone please say it isn't so.

[tihocan]

See my previous post challenging Shade to a "one swing" contest...

You'd still lose to a roll of 19-20 combined with a lightning strike proc. Though it'll definitely take more swings than a double ToD

[Zion_Halcyon]

No, the additional attacks will not trigger additional additional attacks. That path leads to a one in a million chance of complete madness.

You mean like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Az8r1Xmwjmo

[wruggler]

It seems understandable that a physics check has a significant computational overhead. Using the same physics check for both the main attack and its matching offhand attack seems reasonable.

Besides that, is the remainder of this proposal based on profiling the computation in the source code and data traffic during combat with TWF DPS characters? Is there a debug client and server with profiling/instrumentation enabled?

It seems that the proposed approach is introducing percentage chances to guard against more computation overhead with the offhand proc rate and dual strike approaches. I don't know how the client and server communicate during combat and which side computes what exactly. What about aggregating the data traffic from matching main and offhand attacks in an attack sequence? Or is this done already?

Just asking from my programming hat...

[Nomical]

Slowing down the damage output in the game isn't fun. It's also not fun to completely change what build combinations make for good dps. Finally, it costs 2x as much work to gear out a 2wf character with shroud or epic crafted weapons. It's not fun to have half those weapons not work, have epic SoS be better than any other fighting style in the game, and have many characters need to change from 2wf to 2hf to be optimal.

This system looks TERRIBLE and has been the first thing to really upset me about the game. I'm usually pretty chill on the cries of doom, but this just looks unfair and like the ruin of lots of planning, building, and gearing work.

Some things they might do instead to decrease the number of calculations per attack:

• change flags that give 1d6 damage to giving a static damage increase of 3.5 damage.
• increasing the consolidation of calculations, give weapons a static base damage number instead of XdX damage/swing

Also, with their doubled subscription base, they could get better hardware that can handle the game. I really find it hard to believe that a computer can't handle processing 232 attacks/minute, but it can handle 116 attacks/minute just fine. Computers can work at such smaller speeds - this seems like a crazy macro fix for something that's more likely weird coding that makes each swing way more process-intensive than it needs to be.

[Thrudh]

Why not just make the one physics detection for both attacks and leave everything else the same?

I'm curious why we don't just start with that as well... Usually, it's better to make one change at a time...

[Megaton_Samurai]

I will concede that TWF could use a nerf, but this is a horribly lopsided one. You even have a chart at the end of your post demonstrating this. I do not at all like how brutally this change effects non-tempests. This will destroy the TWF Wizard I have in the making, yet will leave my exploiter build almost completely unmolested.

I like unconventional builds, a lot. You are not making it easy for me.

[DarkAlchemist]

if you do do this (which it seems like you will), it would be nice to see these numbers reflected in the ddo character sheet, maybe with the glancing blow proc rate. the rules that govern your character shouldn't be hidden

Back when I enjoyed the "old Turbine" in my AC1 days we had to figure everything out ourselves but at least they left us with a drudge dummy to practice on. Now fast forward to DDO and we still have a "New Turbine" that wishes to keep us ignorant (on most everything) and doesn't even give us a dummy to practice on.

I have a 20 monk this will hurt and I have a 12 Kensai monk this may just totally destroy and I feel the doom the others are saying too. I don't like being pigeon holed into anything but I feel this is where DDO is headed.

[TFPAQ]

If you acquired a double strike effect from somewhere, then yes, Touch of Death could double strike (and trigger an off hand attack) for a total of three attacks..

I don't suppose ToD triggers on that off-hand attack ... 1500 damage ... would be sweet, but could live with "only" 1000 I guess...

[Gurbatonden_Puggh]

On a positive note I see there are +5 lesser hearts of wood now, after this we should see special +6 "remove my ranger levels" hearts of nerf.......grrrr, don't like this.