Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[sirgog]

Generally sounds good.

Sounds like a pretty small change overall - currently full twitch THF hasted 20 BAB toons get 140 attacks in a minute, whereas TWF get 220. Post changes, I assume the TWF gets 140 * (100% + 55%) = 231 (if I read it all correctly).

I'm for this change being seriously tested.

[Ganak]

Outstanding post for so many reasons.

I support this change.

[tihocan]

So why would anyone bother with TWF anymore? Are we getting free hearts of wood and large ingredients (or Epic SoS since you mention it ) to respec and re-equip our characters?

To answer my first question I guess Rangers (since they get the feats for free), Monks (since you can't go THF with handwraps) and Rogues (since sneak attack on both hands is quite useful) may still prefer TWF. For other classes it seems like the investment is not worth it if you end up with similar DPS against single targets (assuming the THF is not twitching), less DPS against multiple targets, less to-hit, and one less feat if you are a Khopesh user (in addition to typically lower Str as well due to the heavier Dex investment).

[Eladrin]

Eh....I really have reservations about this. I do like the efforts made to reduce DPS lag though. Just anything with random chance tends to be more against me than for me. How it is currently, you get that guaranteed attack roll with an off-hand.

It's one of the reasons we're talking about this now. There are major impacts to it.

I'm wondering why TWF grants a larger bonus than ITWF and GTWF. To me those should be more equal.

When it hits Lamannia, we'll be watching things. I can probably be convinced to experiment with making TWF, ITWF, and GTWF all grant a 15% bonus if things go well.

Monk air stance is interesting. Right now it gives a bonus to attack speed, but this change seeks to make air stance more of a TWF only doesn't it? Not that there's probably many monks that are using air stance and only single wielding kamas or using quarterstaves.

It does. Staff using monks may be better suited in Sun stance with these changes, if they're hasted. (Wind still grants the enhancement bonus to attack speed.)

A couple questions for you Eladrin. You mention Zeal adding 10% chance for an extra hit with the main hand. Would this extra hit also deal smite damage (if that hit was a smite). Would it roll a separate d20 to determine if it's a hit?

It should still be treated as a smite. It has to roll to hit separately from the original attack.

And just to make sure about something else. These off-hand chances. When they do proc, do they automatically hit then?

All attack hooks have their own unique to-hit and damage rolls.

[Raider88]

It sounds like an interesting way to go after the dps-lag problem. I think it might be a good step to take, not only because it might help with the lag, but because at the moment two-weapon fighting is such a dominant style of play, and I think it will be nice to close the gap some between TWF and THF. Send it to Lam!

[Impaqt]

Why do rangers get such a higher offhand attack and fighters and paladins do not? That is not the way DDO works currently. It would probably be a good idea to post the current numbers next to the proposed numbers so people got a better visualization of the changes.

Isnt it?
My Ranger gets 5 Ofhand attacks right now compared to 4 on my other TWFers.

[Gratch]

I'm fine with the on-hit physics detection mechanism and all the feats/pre's piling into the offhand ratio.

That said, I think the ratio should always be scaled so that TWF for it's higher costs is still the higher DPS vs. a single target whereas THF shines against multiples. To bring TWF to the same DPS as THF only after you've plied on all extra costs seems like an insane shift to the game. THF extra feats are there for increasing it's damage vs. mulitiple opponents... but you can get most of it's advantage with no feat/class expenditure (except for the STR is king mantra).

Should we all be L20 paly (dr/good) or L20 barb (high str) SoS users from now on?

The tempest change is pretty radical too... it takes an insanely feat heavy first tier PRE and redistributes that PRE's advantage across the cheaper tiers (STWF not withstanding in tier 3). I'd prefer at least a 15%/20%/30% for all the ranger 6's out there to not hate you. A 20/30/40 might be better though if we're bumping ratios.

Now to backwack on rangers. They don't even have to hit the dex req for GTWF. Why do they get all the ratio. Toss the fighters a bone with a version of STWF ratio bump. *grin*

[Battlehawke]

Eladrin,

It looks like you are definately onto something. A lot of people will not be happy, and you may lose some people with some long time builds that are insanely built and do tremendous damage, like what happened with the WOP nerf. I lost a few friends, who just didnt' enjoy playing anymore, because they had build their toons around stat damage. However, I LOVE THF, and think that THF should do more damage than TWF, and like the idea.... and if it reduces DPS lag in the process.... It could keep a lot of people playing that are getting VERY frustrated!

Also, while you're at it, something related happened in a TOD group last night that I picked up. The leader instructed us all to TURN off a ton of stuff in our options panel and in our Social Panel to reduce lag as well as made us take "rest's" at several stages during the beating down of the bosses to reduce lag. It worked very well and was quite intelligent. Most say beat it down, before lag gets us.... He said, stop beating on it, so that lag won't happen!!!

Battlehawke

[Naolas]

This feels like Dungeon Alert all over again.

Why is it that dps lag seems to be worse on some days than others? Could it be that server load is as much an issue as is the number of attacks?

Maybe invest in hardware rather than butcher the combat system?

At the very least address one issue at a time. Do not couple performance adjustments with balancing TWF.

[Zenako]

What some of us need to do is to start cranking some number. Main hand attacks do more damage per hit (due to STR bonuses effects) than the off hand attacks, so it is not a simple number of attacks swapout, but a TOTAL expected damage that needs to be examined.

Unlike in previous times, IF a change like this goes into place, and you are unhappy with how it affects your particular build (but keep in mind it affects all of those same builds), there are Reincarnation methods available to "fix thing" as a potential remediation.

Right now, there is really almost a "one true way" mindset in place, which is counter to the spirit of the source material. D&D was always predicated on their being many ways to build a good character.

[Cyr]

Wow this is a game changer. If this is done in a manner that reduces dps this could lead to people leaving in droves. Right now just glancing at the proposed implementation IT DOES REDUCE DPS.

If the goal here is to reduce lag by eliminating the high resource use physics detection check on off hand swings then why are the numbers scewed to reduce TWF dps? No one would care if the mechanics of how their dps was slightly altered as long as they were not getting nerfed, but this looks like one giant nerf packaged as a way to reduce lag. If it's really about the lag MAKE THE DPS OUTPUT UNCHANGED and just get rid of the extra physics check. Note that double hits are inferior to alacricity boosts also due to over kill on a single target and proc rate on single target for instant kills being more effective if more targets are hit during a set period of time.

Some quick math to show that this proposed change is a nerf...

Fighter Capstone now grants a +10% attack speed increase leading to a +10% dps increase roughly. With this new change the +10% double hit with main hand only makes dps equal to before for those using one weapon. TWF toons lose the 10% extra on their off hand.

I will leave the more in depth math to those whom are not at work right now.

All in all I must say for shame for packaging a major nerf with a lag reducing effort.

Oh and how do you expect to get feedback, act on that feedback, and re-test with feedback before update 5 goes live on this far reaching of a change?

[TFPAQ]

That would mean we get the "second chance" at full strength per PA, instead of the 1/2 we would see off-hand?

[Schmoe]

I think it's perfectly reasonable to piggyback an off-hand attack physics check with the main-hand check. What I don't understand, is why change the "proc" for the off-hand attacks? Right now, it's pretty much a static chance, dependent on what step in the cycle you're on. So 1st main hand is accompanied by an off-hand with 100% chance. Without ITWF, all other attacks in the cycle have a 0% chance. It seems like you're adding an additional check on each main-hand attack that will actually worsen performance.

Also, a Tempest III gets 4 off-hand attacks for every 4 main-hand attacks. A non-tempest with GTWF gets 3 off-hands for every 4 main-hands. This proposal changes it so that a Tempest III will only get about 3 off-hands for every 4 main-hands, and a non-tempest with GTWF can only get 2 off-hands for every 4 main-hands. That's a serious reduction in DPS, about a 12-15% reduction for TWF characters. Not only does the nerf not appear necessary (unless I'm misunderstanding), I'm not sure it's needed.

[Eladrin]

would a double striked main hand attack have a chance to proc an off hand attack as well?

would a double striked main hand attack have a chance to proc another main hand attack?

No, the additional attacks will not trigger additional additional attacks. That path leads to a one in a million chance of complete madness.

I guess Rangers (since they get the feats for free), Monks (since you can't go THF with handwraps) and Rogues (since sneak attack on both hands is quite useful) may still prefer TWF.

Many Paladins are likely to want to TWF as well. Anyone that has bonus "on-hit" effects, whether it be sneak attack or actual effects.

[Vanshilar]

One question I have is why change the way combat is done (to having chance of double strike main attack, and having offhand be a chance to proc) rather than just use the piggyback method on the existing system. After, in the existing system, all swings will have a main attack (although it seems like sometimes the offhand attack occurs first). It seems like there's actually two changes going on:

1) Piggyback the physics detection check of your offhand attack with your main attack to decrease the number of checks needed (and thus speed up the process)
2) Change main attack to have chance of double strike, and offhand attack to be chance of proc rather than based on attack animation.

I'm not quite certain as to why the two have to be done together (although it may simply be due to replacing one chunk of code with another, i.e. you guys have been working on revamping the code in modules and both are slated for the next one). While piggybacking may decrease the lag by decreasing the number of checks needed, I'm not sure how changing the attack mechanics to be probability-based will decrease the lag, other than that it seems like there's a decrease in the overall amount of attacks.

Speaking of which, if the average number of attacks decrease, this also implies that the damage output of characters will also decrease. I don't know if this means that monster HP or other stats will be readjusted, or if this will in effect mean that dungeons will be harder once this goes in

[Vhlad]

It does. Staff using monks may be better suited in Sun stance with these changes, if they're hasted. (Wind still grants the enhancement bonus to attack speed.)

You may want to clarify that in the OP. i.e. you write "Monk Air stances now grant a +5%/+10%/+15%/+20% insight bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks instead of a bonus to attack speed."

Change to: instead of an insight bonus to attack speed (enhancement bonus remains).

No, the additional attacks will not trigger additional additional attacks. That path leads to a one in a million chance of complete madness.

one in a million chance of massive lag spike & party wipe!

[Lorien_the_First_One]

20 [Other] 100% 55%

Looking at "other" so we get away from specialized builds... My instinct says a fully spec'd TWF rogue should get twice the strikes per minute of S&B build... This feels kind of nerfy.

Also if you are taking out the speed capstones for TWF are you changing those similar enhancements to THF or just leaving them the same, at least for now? (ie - if my L20 ftr picks up a Greataxe or goes S&B does he still get the 10% but if he picks up two weapons he does not?)

[Schmoe]

Furthermore, it looks like you're attempting to reduce the overall number of attack checks by changing speed bonuses to additional proc checks. Fair enough. But changing class speed boosts to off-hand proc checks doesn't follow this philosophy and is a further nerf. The speed boosts should at the very least be main-hand proc checks.

[DANTEIL]

Outstanding post for so many reasons.

Agreed.

I don't play melee (yet) but I have experienced the DPS lag, and I have also seen a lot of complaints/concerns here on the forums that the developers aren't doing anything to a) fix the lag problem and b) solicit feedback from players about changes before things go live. So, regardless of what one thinks about the actual details of these proposed changes (and I'll be interested to see what the more knowledgeable players have to say about this), here we have a clear example of a heads-up about a possible change along with an explicit call for feedback about this (seriously -- it's on the main newsfeed plus Eladrin's myDDO plus the forums -- they really want the feedback!). This has to be a good thing.

[Khurse]

First impression (as mentioned) is that wrap using monks are getting smacked.
While I recognize that the whole Monks already need to farm for Devouts (rare drop) or complete a level 20 raid
9(ish) time before they can break DR on a 17th level raid is an entirely different discussion, it does tie into damage.

I can accept the idea if it actually does reduce lag, and bringing TWF and THF closer together seems like a worthwhile idea. It's just that it looks like the Tempest builds again are a little more equal than others, and that this will badly nerf monks, who's DPS is built on how fast they attack with wraps.