Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[TWDiggs1980]

I have a straight kensie twf rapier build and have noticed little to no change in her dps if anything she crits more now after update 5.

[Theragorn]

FYI Thanks for making said lag even worse. Before I had no issues with lag. I had some in high end content but not very bad. Now I get lag in the marketplace where I never had any before. Seems to me you just make things worse when you try and fix something. Just my two cents.

[tasebro]

Yes it was 100% prim and 100% offhand. It is now 100% prim and 40% just to proc offhand. So do the math and figure your offhand has a 60% chance not to proc, and Oh yes you will be swinging a lot less which means a lot less DPS.

Just remember not think of it as NERF but as a way to balance your overpowered TWF Rogue.

Also, there is the absolute LOSS of the same number of given opportunities to roll for a natural 20, or "crit", and that is an especially significant nerf for TWFers, muliticlass in particular, since that takes the dice OUT of the players hands, for no justifiable reason whatsoever; that dice roll is the fundamental "interface" to achieve "heroic" deeds regardless of the short odds, therefore taking those dice rolls away from players is an improper move on Tubs part, since it removes player capacity to achieve said "heroic" deeds.

Combined with the consideration that the mobs are still moving/hitting at prenerfdate5 speed (so mobs now have the speed advantage), so that means MORE incoming damage that has to be mitigated per minute of combat--which leads to the increased "opportunity cost" resulting from nerfed DPS--every second wasted swinging from a gimped TWF DPSer is a second lost that COULD have been spent on heals/buffs/utility, and rightly SHOULD have been spent that way, but instead it is wasted slogging it out in melee trading hits, thus reducing build utility of otherwise "utility builds" even more.

Works for pureclass rogues too, but take my similarly "light" exploiter multiclass thief (1rog/2ranger/1monk) build for example--I played this toon from the ground up, learning as I went, so i am qualified to say that the key to combat playing a pre-nerfdate5 1rog/2ranger/1monk is "applying" your build strengths (now nerfed) and "denying" (mitigate, using good tactics) your build weaknesses in general, in particular by using:
1. THF to augment
2. TWF (used more as level increases), and
3. ranged (manyshot), used mostly L11+, and
4. sustaining with utility/buffs/UMD.
The key to exploiter builds (and rogues as well) is maintaining self-sustenance by not biting off more than you can manage with 1.-4. above, and using manyshot and TWF to put mobs DOWN FAST, from start to finish, such combat must by nature be 100% commited (there is no surviving "second place"), and when the incoming load approaches/exceeds the capability to mitigate via 1.-4., the build is not vaiable, since by nature, light combat is generally an all-or-nothing commitment, "coming in second" is not an option (cuz yer dead), with that threshold being definite and STEEP.
Without ALL these elements working in unison, the build is broken, and that was the official intent of nerfdate5 pulling the rug out from under us.

In the context of having said that...what I have noticed now that nerfdate5 has gone live:
Nerfing DPS (while leaving mobs at prenerfdate5 attack speeds) means ALL melee fights are taking a longer--mobs that used to take 2-3 hits to put down, now take 4-5+ hits, AND are hitting back 50-100 percent more times per minute of combat, over a longer period of time. That increased load had to be mitigated somehow, meaning a whole lot of previously self-sustaining builds are simply no longer affordable, or relevant post-nerfdate5.
I am not seeing the supposed "Game Balance" here....all I see is viable builds getting nerfed/gimped, with no means to repair the damage done that dont involve spending MORE time/money to "fix" what was not broken in the first place, but sure is now.

The loss of the DPS annoys me, the slow-moving combat annoys me more if that makes sense....Stuff taking longer to die = more healing needed = more pots sold in the DDO store = profit!

You got that right G...but I for one am not throwing good money after bad. If Tubs wants more of my money in the future, they gonna have to give me what I want, not what I DONT want...till Tubs gets their priorities straightened out, I am going to cut my losses, park my melee toons, and run 32 pt vanilla casters....and im gonna do it as CHEAPLY as possible.

[Pehtis]

Combined with the consideration that the mobs are still moving/hitting at prenerfdate5 speed (so mobs now have the speed advantage), so that means MORE incoming damage that has to be mitigated per minute of combat--

In the context of having said that...what I have noticed now that nerfdate5 has gone live:
Nerfing DPS (while leaving mobs at prenerfdate5 attack speeds) means ALL melee fights are taking a longer--mobs that used to take 2-3 hits to put down, now take 4-5+ hits, AND are hitting back 50-100 percent more times per minute of combat, over a longer period of time.

You got that right G...but I for one am not throwing good money after bad. If Tubs wants more of my money in the future, they gonna have to give me what I want, not what I DONT want...till Tubs gets their priorities straightened out, I am going to cut my losses, park my melee toons, and run 32 pt vanilla casters....and im gonna do it as CHEAPLY as possible.

Bingo! Melee characters now attacking in slow motion post U5 because you have a lot less attacks in that same minute you just wasted, whilst monsters continue attacking at pre U5 speeds doing even more damage to the character during that very same minute ...... and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.

Yep, that's it in a nutshell.

Since when is it fun to have your melee character swinging their weapons is like they are totally drunk and lethargic (i.e. slow motion). The whole feeling of combat is like a Level 1 (L1) melee character is taking on a Level 5 monster. The monster attacks quickly and hits you often in that 1 minute. The melee character on the other hand is trying its hardest to fight but being L1 melee it has limitations how quickly it can fight. But hang on, the Melee is actually a Level 5 character but is now been nerfed to be fighting like a level 1 character. That's what it feels like.

There is almost no point playing melee toons any more. Their combat takes A LOT more time to finish now and are a lot less survivable than before (AC/DR remains substandard). They simply just can't hold their own as they use to in a fight without a lot more resource help (re heal/repairs).

No such problem for the casters. Can you imagine if they increased the casting time required for each of their spells by 80/60/40 being +80% extra time with no Focus feat, then 60% with 1 Focus Feat and so on (TWF equivalent nerf), AND also increased the cool down time of the use of their spells (THF glancing blow nerf ... ok an analogy stretch but making a point). They will be dead before they could finish casting any spell let alone be in any position to cast the next one. Thankfully they did no such thing to casters. Instead they are the big winners as they get improvements which is nice.

This is officially now a caster MMO.

The only melee toons that look attractive are (gasp) S&B toons with the role of standing, shield up, with enemy monsters pounding away, while casters charm/blast the pesky monsters and then cast raise dead over their sacrificial pet ... err fellow melee player. That is assuming the augmented summoned pets and hirelings don't do just as good a job and hence all they ever really need. They just need to buy ($$$$$) the multiples from the DDO store which is all well and good as Turbine is running a business.

Alas gone is the fast paced interactive decision making combat thrill when in melee. Once upon a time (might have been just the other day) you were already planning ahead of the next immediate trash confrontation, and the one after that over a 30 second period. Now it takes a whole 30 seconds to kill that first trash monster. There you are screaming at the character to finish its swing quicker (therefore attack stroke) when faced with 4 - 5 Ogre monsters coming at you, but it just can't. Then they are all over you. Better still try melee an archer as they continue getting off more attacks than you are because you are now going through your slow motion attack.

Now finishing any mission by melee toons will take a lot longer (re killing trash mobs takes longer) which soon becomes more of a grind. With players spending more time than before on old content Turbine will probably get more $$$ from VIP's. Also gives Turbine more time to not come up with anything new for a while which is a double win.

Well I'm not going to spend any new money with Turbine with this massive change to their product. Instead like many I will make do with what I have already paid for until I find a replacement.

I'll go check out World Of Warcraft and other popular MMO's and see what they are about, and hopefully find somewhere a thrilling interactive combat engine that functions well with good mission designs.

A couple of days ago the Turbine company had a fast paced thrilling interactive combat experience forming the core of its gaming product that had me enjoying (and paying) their product. Then they released Update 5 and eliminated this very core.

This is now a damaged product. Not totally broken but now forcing customers to look elsewhere if this remains the case.

P

[~econner1]

I've been playing for a while and haven't felt the need to post as I have been enjoying the game for the most part. Update 5 has changed this. I understand the need to reduce the load on the server, however there was no need purposefully hamstring existing characters to do it. If you feel you need to continue on your current path you might consider increasing the base percentages so you can approximate pre-update 5 conditions. Since I actually pay for the game I figure I should voice my opinion when you head in a direction I do not agree with and takes away from my enjoyment of the game.

[Meetch1972]

Isn't it sad that people treat "trash mobs" like they don't matter? Perhaps they should, or they wouldn't have been put there in the first place - not just to slow you down/make it grindier, but to increase the risk in line with the difficulty of the dungeon, making players think more about how to handle a situation rather than running into the middle of half a dozen ogres, spinning steel until they all fall over.

To me this means it will be more of a challenge, and I'd rather a challenge than an Epic level quest where the high DPS guys stand together and spin on the spot until there's nothing left and then race to the next bunch of mobs to see who gets there first and the first kill to boot. Play smarter and take your time - I thought it was a game, not a race! I'd suggest y'all learn to use the available skills of yer toons to their maximum potential, and stop watching the clock.

I'll do it without TP bought pots too.

In PnP the L1 party treats every kobold encounter like a boss fight, or dies horribly and spends another 20 minutes rolling up new characters... I don't expect DDO to be quite like that (unless you're in a permadeath guild), but if all you want is to skip to the real boss fight without having to manage resources and play smart, then why are you playing DDO, a game with a very complex interlaced system of stealth, combat and tactics, like you've "earned god mode"?

Actually, are there any Permadeath guild members watching who would care to comment on their attitude toward the "TWF nerf"?

(For those who are new and don't know, a permadeath guild basically consists entirely of toons who ARE DELETED AND STARTED AGAIN if they die in a dungeon of something other than a bug and and are unable to be resurrected by a member of the party - which usually means no resurrection shrines allowed either - an idea I've entertained, but don't have time for).

Enough whining already! Sheesh!

[qwert-y]

This update is absolute rubbish. I thought this was tested before releasing it to us. Who in thier right mind gave this the hat's off during testing? They have taken one of the main reasons I even played DDO and wrecked it entirely. If I want slow motion WOW type gaming I would be playing WOW. They even got rid of dice roll descriptions so how can they even say this game draws from REAL DnD? I am taking my money elsewhere. This is some bull &*&#. Good job to the Dev's I hope the project manager fires the lot of you for being incompetent.

[tasebro]

...Play smarter and take your time ....I'd suggest y'all learn to use the available skills of yer toons to their maximum potential, and stop watching the clock.
...
Enough whining already! Sheesh!

Time is money Meetch, and you are mighty liberal with *other* peoples' time/money.
Think about that for a sec, and what it says about you.

You apparently want this to be all about YOU, meetch, but its NOT, never will be, so you might be so kind as to stop and consider that your bellicose attitude is precisely the attitude that causes ppl to find something else to do, so be careful what you wish for, you just might get it--along with the unintended consequences.
No offense man, but frankly speaking if you were running a PnP game as GM, judging from what I see here, I can't say I would go out of my way to sit at your gaming table, or maybe you just enjoy being a shill, baiting ppl for fun?

Hope you like playing WoW, cuz that is where you are headed.

[Meetch1972]

Why do people threaten to ragequit on the forums and then not follow through? 'cos DDO is an amazing game for what you have to pay, before or after U5. So the system has changed - as far as I'm concerned you have a few choices: adapt (however you choose), complain (which not only irritates but saddens me), or leave (quietly or otherwise is your call, and either way I'll respect it). Turbine never promised you they weren't going to nerf anything, and it looks like those who paid for their access for the 3+ years before it went F2P understand that. I personally know I'm getting a LOT of value out of Turbine for what I've given them, and I don't have to suck up to anyone for TPs (though I wouldn't complain if they DID give me TPs ).

All I'm trying to say is that I prefer treat it as a challenge to find the strengths and the best way to play my toons rather than an excuse to whine about the new-found weaknesses in my toon builds. If you don't like the game as it is, don't play it. TWFs can still get to 105%/100% at high levels, but it requires more dedication to the specialisation, which means more weaknesses, which means playing smarter becomes necessary (taking less aggro) and people who refuse to learn let their toons die quicker/more.

I haven't yet learnt how to apply all the skills my toons have at their disposal, but I am learning because my L20 Pally can't chew through bunches of mobs as risk-free with a paralyser and vorpal or dual vorpals as he used to, 'cos now without TWF he gets 60% of the total number of swings that he used to with them. S&B becomes a more attractive option, so I'll explore it. I might also explore using diplomacy to get the aggro off me and back onto the main tank, and switch to THF, or stand still more and let the dwarven axe glancing blows happen (S&B may even do more total damage with a DA equipped now). I don't have the inclination to moan that my TWF style is now 40% less effective, 'cos that won't get me anywhere.

I really would like to hear what permeadeath-ers think about the TWF nerf. They would be the ones who SHOULD care most about nerfing as that would directly affect the tactics they employ in order to succeed on an elite raid rather than wipe their character and reroll. I consider them the most hardcore gamers, not just min-maxers.

[Meetch1972]

Time is money Meetch, and you are mighty liberal with *other* peoples' time/money.
Think about that for a sec, and what it says about you.

I thought this was a game??? If you think Turbine owes you ANYTHING beyond what you still have and the hours/days/weeks/whatever of entertainment you've had for the time you've put into the game, then I suggest you stop playing as so many people threaten to do. IMO the only legitimate complaints are those to do with bugs, not rebalancing.

You apparently want this to be all about YOU, meetch, but its NOT, never will be, so you might be so kind as to stop and consider that your bellicose attitude is precisely the attitude that causes ppl to find something else to do, so be careful what you wish for, you just might get it--along with the unintended consequences.
No offense man, but frankly speaking if you were running a PnP game as GM, judging from what I see here, I can't say I would go out of my way to sit at your gaming table, or maybe you just enjoy being a shill, baiting ppl for fun?

tasebro, you realise you're making it sound all about you? I thought after your last post you were past that, 'cos I even you rep for it. In any case, if it were PnP and the party was up against Suulo, I wouldn't let him be quite that easily fooled into beating up on the intimitank in turtle mode while there's a whole bunch of squishies behind him he could seriously hurt before taking his time with the last tank standing, and if you expected that, I wouldn't want you at my table.

I would think only those too short-sighted to see the opportunities would feel baited. Anyway...

Hope you like playing WoW, cuz that is where you are headed.

No thanks - I prefer DDO. Prove me wrong if you want, but please go easy on the personal attacks. Who's baiting whom?

I don't get a lot of time to play, but I intend to make the most of it when I can...

How about agreeing to disagree?

[Raveolution]

u 5 combat changes sucks . These nerfs are ****. Big ****. Monster builds and any combos with 6 ranger lvls are dead. Paladin dps now sucks a lot with new zeal. My ranger 18 monk 2 attacks in slow motion and my light 2 rapiers proc 50% less than before.. My dps now sucks. Casters are now overpowered. Epic quests are only for casters now.
This is not more challenge or more fun. This is ****

[pSINNa]

Today our guild ran the shroud a few times in a row (we all have serveral shroud ready toons), and then a few other raids and some quests to evaluate in what ways and to what degree things have changed for us in update 5.

Keeping it brief :


All clerics in group on all runs had re-specced as radiant servants already, and found the change to be a very positive one, the general consensus was that clerics alts would be seeing a lot more play in future (rather then the fvs toons we had all been concentrating on for the last few months).


The monks reported being quite happy with the way things had changed. Some of them seemed to beleive they were seeing an increase in dps overall (based on the number of 'crits' they seemed to be seeing, and having no real negative they could detect in normal play and during Harry beatdowns).


The pure tempest rangers all reported a noticeable slowdown in melee alacrity, with some speculation on a possible upgrade to Jorgandals collar as a double strike booster, but overall were happy that they were still dps viable builds, whilst also having a new dps stat to 'count coup' with - double strike watch in combat log provided some entertainment there .


Several toons of different type that had only the twf and itwf feats noticed the occasional miss in 2nd hand proc, but on the whole were happy with their dps viability (most of the toons in question were 'jack of all trades' types, being 'decent' dps, but not primarily aimed at melee dps only focus.


So called DPS lag was noticeably improved in shroud parts 4 and 5, though to a degree lag of 'an unspecified type :P' seemed to present itself randomly, on the whole, it was better, particularly from the healers standpoint, with the previous 'lag spam heal' method being found to no longer be necessary. (In the first run, i was on a radiant servant 2, and rotated between aura bursts and cure light and medium mass at longer and longer intervals while running the healing aura standing just to the side of the Harry beatdown - finding optimal timing may take a little time, but it's a massive improvement, no doubt about it).


A few pale masters in the group were experimenting with death aura whilst in wraith and lich forms whilst casting and seemed very happy with the 'new tricks', with much debate on possibilities to extract some interesting results in different quest and raid scenarios, on the whole, it seems a positive change there.


The guid renown system seemed to fuel our members to run quests and raids as a group with a 6 x raid run coming to an end before some (with much reluctance) had to tear themselves away to attend to real life again. I anticipate a heightened degree of guild activity in general while we race to elevate our guild favour as quickly as possible.


That's all in the way of feedback after the first real days questing under the changes of update 5, this list has been made in an attempt to provide honest feedback to the OP as experienced by one group in one day of quest/raiding.



Coit out~

Ghallanda : Coitfu, Coithealz, Coitburner, Coittimeh, Coitburner, Coitzinga, Coitrippr, Luciforge Son of Coit : Revelationz

(ps. the clerics, are really, really happy, lol, it's fun to heal again :P)

[WindowLicker'77]

I have noticed that even in lower areas like ataraxia the orcs and everything else can shoot and hit an arcane ranger at greater distances than the ranger so you killed the reason to build a ranger there now going to knock down the TWF as well I guess there goes me building another ranger!!!!

[MarcusCleardawn]

My observations:
1. Shroud lag is slightly improved. Quest lag is more frequent and severe, but all of that may be due more to circumstances concerning the update than anything else.

2. TWF DPS is significantly lowered, particularly in the early going before Greater Two Weapon Fighting. Missing out on the special effects of an off hand weapon, like vorpal, banish, paralyze, coupled with the significant DPS hit, makes playing my paladin considerably less enjoyable. As both a Stat and Feat starved class, I find the TWF nerf particularly annoying.

It seems that I don't even begin to pull even with 2handed melee combatants until I get Greater Two Weapon Fighting, and all the additional Feats and Stats I spent are just junk until then. I can't wrap my brain around the justification that a 2handed fighter should have equivalent single target damage (and glancing blows!) for fewer stat points investment, and no feats, as a Two Weapon Fighter.

3. Furthermore, by reducing the number of to-hit rolls, you reduce the number of critical strikes which again reduces the utility of various "on critical" abilities.

4. Overall, quest take significantly longer to complete; combat feels slower, and I consume significantly more healing resources in the same load out as before. I assume that the mobs were given titanic mountains of hitpoints in response to the speed of dps, which you just nerfed a great deal, anyway we could get an adjustment? I can live with slower combat, though I don't like it one whit, but slower combat with the same mountain of hitpoints is getting old very quickly.

5. I haven't experience the "increase in the breadth of significant armor class" that was bandied about. Armor Class still seems mostly irrelevant after the first few levels.

[REALb0r3d]

Deleted

[chubbs99]

When I was playing monday with my 20 monk, I noticed very little in dps change. Infact our normal guild group doing the shroud wasn't complaining at all about less off-hand hits, but 3 people (all Pally's) had a mysterious ~20 damage/hit loss.

After the raid myself and a few others TRed our toons. I went Monk again and now that I only have Wind I and TWF I'm getting almost no off hand hits, and my attack speed is non existant. I'm so use to twitching away from a mob with 1% hp since I know my off hand will swing and kill it, that doing it now at level's 1-5 ends up actually leaving the mob alive. Not very fun at all... Wonder how it will be at 6 when I can take ninja spy and start using short swords.

[Sarezar]

My tempest III has same DPS than before and has MUCH more improved "contact" with the attacks (fake one, but I like it). It was quite hit and miss on whether you hit the monsters due to server-client delay. Awesome job.

Also, we have absolutely no lag, so you have done an incredible job with this. No idea how it affects monks, pallies, fighters, and barbs, but I am extremely happy with the results.

[GoRinNoSho]

Strangely enough, my rapier/shield thief's attacks all lack precision now. Assassinate attempts fire usually a second after activate with a high probability of double strike (up to 3 seconds later). The double strike can be hit or miss since the double strike favors barrels over opponents, so while you can get 2 in one shot, make sure there are no barrels. Secondly, I see 3 swing animations before 1 damage notification at times in a slayer or quest area. This is somewhat disconcerting as the intended effect was, in theory, an overall performance boost to improve crispness.

Now that the AI shares the effective object draw distance of ultra-high, I would assume that players with lesser graphics cards will be happy as they are pelted from unknown opponents, especially since arrows fired by creatures beyond draw distance are not rendered.

[Meetch1972]

Strangely enough, my rapier/shield thief's attacks all lack precision now. Assassinate attempts fire usually a second after activate with a high probability of double strike (up to 3 seconds later). The double strike can be hit or miss since the double strike favors barrels over opponents, so while you can get 2 in one shot, make sure there are no barrels. Secondly, I see 3 swing animations before 1 damage notification at times in a slayer or quest area. This is somewhat disconcerting as the intended effect was, in theory, an overall performance boost to improve crispness.

Now that the AI shares the effective object draw distance of ultra-high, I would assume that players with lesser graphics cards will be happy as they are pelted from unknown opponents, especially since arrows fired by creatures beyond draw distance are not rendered.

One of the things I enjoyed was running around Irestone on elite with a group of mostly ranged attackers, throwing the returning weapon at spots around crates until the combat log showed I was hitting mobs. The only heavy melee encountered was from the wandering mobs and dealing with Yaaryar. I haven't done such a thing since U5 was applied, but have others noticed as much of - I guess - a clipping problem? I might run in tonight (Oz time) and compare the extreme range combat.

It didn't exactly seem right that I could apparently shoot an arrow or throw an axe hundreds of metres without them returning fire 'cos they couldn't figure out where I was, but it made such quests a lot more survivable if tedious. But if you cannot see them then I would hope that at least you can follow the reciprocal path of the projectile to figure out where the shooter is, otherwise that is indeed a problem!

The reports of melee misses have the feel of tuning mob AC to me. As long as the HPs are adjusted down to match, then I guess that's fair - my L7 rogue didn't seem to have any more difficulty hitting things than before (and when getting SA damage seemed to be doing a lot better), but that was 1-handed.

I guess the jury's still out on how much impact U5 has made with regards to both lag and melee effectiveness...

[Meetch1972]

One of the things I enjoyed was running around Irestone on elite with a group of mostly ranged attackers, throwing the returning weapon at spots around crates until the combat log showed I was hitting mobs. The only heavy melee encountered was from the wandering mobs and dealing with Yaaryar. I haven't done such a thing since U5 was applied, but have others noticed as much of - I guess - a clipping problem? I might run in tonight (Oz time) and compare the extreme range combat.

Ummm yeah, it did seem like their ranged capable mobs were able to see me and shoot/throw from further away, though they weren't capable of shooting that far. The melee mobs were just as brain-dead as ever, running around in circles.

So it looks like if they can shoot that far, and if your graphics settings aren't that high then you may not be able to see where the shots are coming from. I don't mind the mechanics so much as the anonymity of the aggressor - where hardware does matter. This was on the high-res client mind - any feedback for low-res?