Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Calebro]

Tempest 1 does not give you two feats for free. Ranger 6 does. Tempest 1 gives you a 10% increase in your off hand proc rate now.

That's exactly what I said. Tespest I splash and Ranger 6 splash are interchangable. Show me a multiclass build that has Ranger 6 and ISN'T a Tempest and I'll entertain the notion that my wording was wrong.

I've been compiling a mental list of "winners and losers" of this change. Well... mostly ranking the losers. While Tempest I still has it's merits, you have to put the Tempest I splash builds at the top of the loser list. Everyone took it for the 10% alacrity, and the rest was just icing on the cake. Now that most of the cake is gone, I predict that we will see far fewer of these builds.

Yes, but it was OP as a Tier I PrE anyway, which is precisely why so many people took it. I'm not saying it isn't losing anything, but it's losses now put it about where it should be power-wise, as far as I'm concerned.

[Alanim]

So, curious, wouldn't getting 100% offhand attack essentially be the same as we currently have?

Also, Curious as it has been brought up recently, does manyshot cause the same type of lag as twf? I assume not since it seems to happen all at the same time.

[Coldin]

at first, i was going to make it its own line (with a choice between 2wf/s&b/2hf). the problem is that the rogue PrE's give you zilch point nothing flexibility because of their AP spend.

Yeah. Rogue enhancements are darn costly. Would be nice if the devs did a pass on rogues for just enhancement costs and bonuses.

[Cyr]

That's exactly what I said. Tespest I splash and Ranger 6 splash are interchangable. Show me a multiclass build that has Ranger 6 and ISN'T a Tempest and I'll entertain the notion that my wording was wrong.

Your wrong. 11 ranger/9 rogue elf. AA build. There are plenty of other AA builds that TWF with a ranger splash for the feats.

[mboger]

For trash mobs, a monk's ability to quickly swing vorpal kamas or stunning wraps is what made them worthwhile. At first, the idea of a 10% chance double strike ToD sounded like it might make up for it (for dark monks anyways... light monks are still screwed). But now that I've read some more, it sounds like even the double strike ToD isn't happening, since that attack is handled differently than regular attacks. I guess all monks get is the ability to stun the same mob twice? *rolleyes*

While I agree that TWF has balance issues, this proposed solution (are we still even pretending this has anything to do with lag?) is going to hurt monks much more than other classes and they're going to need something to make up for it. Maybe try expanding unarmed crit range. There are already plenty of builds that use much better GS weapons that are crit'ing 30% of the time, so I don't think a 20% crit range (assuming imp crit bludgeon) is going to unbalance anything.

[Calebro]

Your wrong. 11 ranger/9 rogue elf. AA build. There are plenty of other AA builds that TWF with a ranger splash for the feats.

Ranger 6, like I said. Not Ranger 11, as you tried to use an as example.

[Eladiun]

Your wrong. 11 ranger/9 rogue elf. AA build. There are plenty of other AA builds that TWF with a ranger splash for the feats.

Ummm.. that looks like 11 not 6....11 != 6. I have never been good at math though.

[grodon9999]

Your wrong. 11 ranger/9 rogue elf. AA build. There are plenty of other AA builds that TWF with a ranger splash for the feats.

We're talking about TWF, it's safe to assume ranger 6 = Tempest 1.

If it's number of swings/minute that are fouling things up, can't the just change Tempest I/Right Capstone to 10% chance on every attack to yeild a double-strike? That'll slow down the incoming attacks without gimping anyone's DPS. Same with windstance based on it's speed. Rangers and Monks are screwed without our high attack rates.

Honestly, I'd rather live with the lag than any of this nonsense.

[Grendyll]

at first, i was going to make it its own line (with a choice between 2wf/s&b/2hf). the problem is that the rogue PrE's give you zilch point nothing flexibility because of their AP spend.

/agree !!!!!

Rogues spend way more APs for their marginal PrEs than other classes, most of them wasted on garbage to boot.

[Cyr]

Yes, but it was OP as a Tier I PrE anyway, which is precisely why so many people took it. I'm not saying it isn't losing anything, but it's losses now put it about where it should be power-wise, as far as I'm concerned.

So with the RANGER feats considered this is how tempest 1 breaks down.

* 1 extra feat used, six levels of a class, and some AP for 10% offhand hook increase.

Compared to...

* 1 feat for a +20% offhand hook increase. Just saying when a single feat gives you double what one feat and a PrE gives you then the PrE might sound pretty gimped at that point.

[Cyr]

Ranger 6, like I said. Not Ranger 11, as you tried to use an as example.

Figher 12/ Ranger 6/ 2 monk AA.

Barbarian 12/ Ranger 6/ 2 rogue AA.

Barbarian 14/ 6 Ranger AA.

I've played with lots of bowbarians. Point of course being that every ranger splash is not a tempest. Which my 11/9 split showed just fine.

[Belowme]

Your wrong. 11 ranger/9 rogue elf. AA build. There are plenty of other AA builds that TWF with a ranger splash for the feats.

Is 11 levels considered "splashing"?

[Calebro]

So with the RANGER feats considered this is how tempest 1 breaks down.

* 1 extra feat used, six levels of a class, and some AP for 10% offhand hook increase.

Compared to...

* 1 feat for a +20% offhand hook increase. Just saying when a single feat gives you double what one feat and a PrE gives you then the PrE might sound pretty gimped at that point.

Again, you're oversimplifying.
Anyone taking Tempst I is going for TWF already.
As such, TWF and ITWF are interchangable with Dodger and Mobility as far as the requirements are concerned. You were going to take the TWF feats anyway, so getting them for free is a trade off for Dodge and Mobility. That leaves the cost of Tempest at a single feat.
Essentially, that feat becomes the following:

<Random Feat>
Requirements: Dexterity 13, Base Attack Bonus +4
Usage: Passive
Description: Your training has greatly improved your ability to fight with two weapons at once while on the move, granting a 10% bonus to produce an attack from your off-hand and a +2 shield bonus to armor class when two-weapon fighting. Additionally, you suffer no penalty to your attack roll when moving and attacking.

When you later take GTWF, that extra v10% makes it's impact over not taking Tempest.
Not as gimped as people would make it sound.

I've played with lots of bowbarians.

When, in Mod 4?
We're talking about TWFing here. Please keep your examples on point.

[Drfirewater79]

Your wrong. 11 ranger/9 rogue elf. AA build. There are plenty of other AA builds that TWF with a ranger splash for the feats.

in 3.0 ranger was only good for splashing for feats ... no one plays a ranger in pnp unless they are lazy in combat and just want to take high jump skild and climb skill and spend whole time in a tree where kobolds cant get them with anything but magic missle and throwing weapons ...

most underused class in 3.0 and that is why in 3.5 they changed the class a bit so you had to focus melee or ranged .. in DDO rangers are all about the melee dps cause ranged sucks so bad ( i have a ranged ranger only lvl 17 i hear my opinion might change at lvl 18 rank 2 when i can get my slayer arrows but doubt it cause crit range is still the major issue and needing to crit to get the bonus damage makes me think its still not as good as melee.

I can see people who want barkskin taking the 12 ranger ... people who want to dual weild tempest II seems like the best option ..

but as for taking tempest I ... it was stupid that the speed increase happened then anyway ... it should have been nerfed sooner if you ask me.

dumbest splash option they ever made ... so unbalancing ...

[bandyman1]

Aggro mechanics in this game are far from predictable. I've punched an enemy to half health on my monk and lost aggro when a ranger shot it once with their arrow for a very small amount of damage. Pulling aggro does not mean you are doing more damage than some other person.

Oh I totally agree. Tell that to SquelchHU, and the others in this thread who somehow think it's impossible for a barb to lose aggro.

PS: BTW, it wasn't just once, but multiple times. We had a pretty **** good laugh heckling him about it.

[Towrn]

That's exactly what I said. Tespest I splash and Ranger 6 splash are interchangable. Show me a multiclass build that has Ranger 6 and ISN'T a Tempest and I'll entertain the notion that my wording was wrong.

My arcane archer build has 6 levels of ranger and, apparently since I said Im an arcane archer, does not have Tempest.

Just saying.

[grodon9999]

but as for taking tempest I ... it was stupid that the speed increase happened then anyway ... it should have been nerfed sooner if you ask me.

dumbest splash option they ever made ... so unbalancing ...

Tempest should have had a high DEX requirement. Tempests are supposed to be Drizzt, a 90 pound elf not a Warforged monster with 40+ STR. That's the cause of the unbalance.

But is their really an unbalance at all? Full rangers DO NOT out-DPS fighters. 12/6/2s do not out-DPS fighter 20s.

[Calebro]

My arcane archer build has 6 levels of ranger and, apparently since I said Im an arcane archer, does not have Tempest.

Just saying.

Again, we're talking about TWFing here. Please keep your examples on point.
Perhaps I should have said "show me a melee build with Ranger 6 that isn't a Tempest" so as to weed out any potential detractors.
My point still stands.
On a melee toon, which is what we're talking about here with the 130+ pages of TWF nerf comments, I'd assumed that people would read that in context.

Apparently the need to prove someone wrong on a point that was implied but not specifically stated is more important than the discussion at hand.
I will now *entertain* the notion that I should have reworded that post, but only insofar as to exclude archers, as I assumed would have been understood.

[moorewr]

Tempest should have had a high DEX requirement. Tempests are supposed to be Drizzt, a 90 pound elf not a Warforged monster with 40+ STR. That's the cause of the unbalance.

But is their really an unbalance at all? Full rangers DO NOT out-DPS fighters. 12/6/2s do not out-DPS fighter 20s.

.. the only DEX requirement in the source game for tempest is the dex for the TWF feats. Of course, in PnP you might never see a tome, let alone have a merchant for them..

Of course, in PnP you can qualify for Tempest from a number of base classes - it bugs me always that I can't be a rogue tempest in DDO... for example.

[Wizzly_Bear]

We've had this lag for years. Years! I'd rather deal with the usual than all this nerfing nonsense.