Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[shadosatblackphoenix]

Eladrin have you considered slightly slowing down all combat (before you guys roast me hear me out, not talking about much) or highly dense combat a few ticks so you effectively have more CPU cycles for every round of combat, effectively upgrading your hardware without changing it? I should think just slowing the whole thing down a TINY amount would get significant benefits... Might not even need to make it slow enough that anyone can tell the difference without using side by side Youtube videos to "a/b" compare. I'm not talking about going from 200 swings a minute to 100... maybe 200 to 180.

This. As it is, combat goes -way- too fast in DDO. When I play my monk, i honestly cannot read the damage numbers as they scroll, and I usually see the "killing blow" several -seconds- after the mob is dead. Its NOT because I lag, but because the already fast scrolling numbers cannot keep up at their current speed. Its honestly nuts. There's no reason I should be getting a billion attacks per second. Just slow down everything a notch.

We pretty much know this would work, because you can already counter DPS lags by slowing down when fighting in raids. Stop attacking for a few seconds, lag goes away.

Further, its basically impossible to hit a moving mob, because by the time you see yourself hitting, on the server the mob is already a step in front of you, so if the point of the complex collision detection system DDO uses was for real time, realistic combat, it failed anyhow. Dumb it down. Make it that the range/direction detection is refreshed less often (so even if a mob moves a bit Ill still hit it AND the server will not have as much to do).

This will have as a nice side effect of allowing more interesting strategies and allowing us to appreciate what is happening and react to it better. The Baldurs Gate way of "you die in 1/2 a second or everything else dies in 1/4th" doesn't have to apply here. It is supposed to be the online version of a very slow paced table top game. It just needs to be fast enough to please the (big) part of the player base that has severe ADD and no medication, and no faster.

Its the second time in a very short timespawn that Turbine threatens to take out a bulldozer to fix an unrelated problem (Nerfing DC-based arcanes as a whole just to help with Air Elemental mechanic...), that honestly if this went through (even though it doesn't affect me directly, as I play primarly casters, except for a monk that didn't hit 20 yet), I'd heavily reconsider playing this, because my characters may very well be next.

I'm not against strategic, small scale nerfing to make the game more fun, but this is just plain stupid. And lets not get on how it could affect several abilities like assassinate and Stunning Fist that proc on both the main and offhand (evening out their lack luster landing rate in end game).

Once again, Turbine seems to want us to only play Frenzied barbarians that hit 3 abilities then hold down the button. ::YAWN::

[Calebro]

Yes... the gap is closer. No, the gap hasn't closed enough to have that response. You're talking about a gap that's currently three times as large as the proposed nerf being talked about here.

That illustrates just how big a deal this change is... not how insignificant the gap between S&B and TWF is.

But that's exactly my point. With how big that gap was, something surely needed to be done. This addresses part of that problem, and I'm hoping it makes it to live (assuming it works as intended).

[Symar-FangofLloth]

I'm cool with some of the speed changes swapping to doublestrike. Even though they don't really affect me; if they did it sounds fair.

I'm all for bringing the fighting styles closer together.

Removing the unnecessary physics check sounds great.

I'm not sure about the change to TWF. For starters, it's a deviation from D&D. But, less attacks is okay.
It's probably easier for noobs to the D&D rules to know what's going on with the changes...
And maybe it'll make the entire TWF chain no longer seem necessary...

I guess, there are two issues.
First, it's a deviation from core D&D.
Second, TWF is now getting less attacks than before, reducing DPS.

If your goal here is to nerf TWF DPS, then I can't argue.
And I think it's still in the spirit of the feat, and possibly adapts it to a more real-time system.

... I think I just talked myself into accepting it .

[Angelus_dead]

If the game uses a simple RNG the computation is relatively quick, but we will see anomalies where multiple calls to the RNG do not produce a uniform distribution.

There will be no statistically detectable anomaly if they use fast RNG functions that have been published for over a decade.

[Shade]

Haven't seen anyone talk about this yet:
So the goal of these changes is both to reduce the dps lag caused by twf/monk.. And to reduce TWF dps a bit to balance it more towards THF.

Because most endgame players know if you take 5 TWF into say VoN6 epic and they all attack the dragon, DPS lag is 99% gaurenteed, the dragon will not appear to be moving and thus predicting the breath is difficult and often leads to lag deaths.

Vs 5, 6,7 or even more players with THF in the same area and no twf.. You will almost never see any lag.

So the problem is twf. Almost exclusively. Sure THF causes calculations too, but ones that the servers have proven to be able to keep up with for the most part, so no nerfs are needed.

Yet..

You thross in a direct nerf to THF as well?!?!

Attacks with two handed weapons while moving no longer perform Glancing Blows.

I don't see the purpose of this. If your trying to bring TWF dps down cloase to THF, why are you also nerfing THF?

The big draw for me and Im sure a lot of players is the fast pacced active combat of the game. THF - with the GTHF feat allows you to keep moving and attack numerious enemies at once, to help draw agro off you party, and do some (not much) aoe damage as well. Most players understand that doing this to a big pack of mosnters while standing still just plain doesn't work as the enemies move too fast and your attack range ismply even very long while standing still.

That just isn't any fun.

Why directly nerf GTHF's ability to deal damage to many enemies while moving?

It seems to me these changes impact the fighter the most, especially the TWF fighter, but also nerf the THF one.. And to top it off for fighters - it makes hte GTHF feat almost entirely worthless, since the primary reason to take it is to add that glancing blow attack while moving.
Fighters would become a stronger class if DDO had more and better feats. Rightnow they suffer a bit as a class because most of the best feat easily fit into the 7/8 feat profile of classes like Rogues, Paladins and Barbarians who get no bonus feats. This change will only make it worse ,as they could safely drop GTHF without any big loss.

So it's a nerf. Not one that will help dps lag, not one that will help balance, and not one that anyone asked for. Why do it?

If the idea is to somewher reduce THF AOE dmg output because you feel the nerfs being done to TWF are too severe to "even" it out.. Why go with such an EXTREME approach. As this change goes from "some aoe damage while moving" to "ZERO, None at all ever AOE dmg while moving".. Rather extreme nerf. If glancing blows were to be nerfed like TWF, they should at least get some smaller chance to proc some damage while moving, and not have it entirely taken away without cause.

[bobbryan2]

But that's exactly my point. With how big that gap was, something surely needed to be done. This addresses part of that problem, and I'm hoping it makes it to live (assuming it works as intended).

S&B needed help, sure. But this isn't the way to do it. A better way would have been a concurrent nerf to THF and TWF with a subsequent % decrease of monster HP.

Simply nerfing offhand proc rates is a terrible way to rebalance things.

I'd rather them gut the greensteel system than these changes as proposed. Surely there's a way to make greensteel more efficient.... like simply having each tier increase the base damage of the weapon with less often bigger numbers (like lightning strikes)

[Souless]

One of the major issues that we’ve been working on is the dps lag problem in high level content (especially raid content). We’re attacking this problem from many angles, and since some of the changes we’re considering will have significant impact on many characters, we’re interested in your feedback before it goes to Lamannia or live. We're trying to aggressively attack the issues that cause these lag problems and are interested in feedback regarding how aggressively we should be attempting to tackle them.

Some people may have noticed that problems occur most often when there are many monks or two weapon fighting characters that are loaded with many on-hit effects attacking en masse. These characters currently perform many attacks very quickly, and each attack is pretty heavy performance-wise. Rather than attack the problem by changing common heavy-load equipment, we’ve already taken some steps to optimize the way we perform attacks, and are considering the following changes to reduce overall performance loads:

Currently a single two weapon fighting attack makes a physics detection check with your main hand, followed by a second detection check for your off hand (roughly 0.15 seconds after the first one). Instead of making multiple physics checks, all two weapon fighting attacks (weapons or unarmed) would now make a single check for your main hand attack, and would “piggyback” on that detection check and have a chance to proc (trigger) an off-hand attack based on the number of two weapon fighting feats (or related enhancements) you possess. Off-hand attacks would have a chance to proc on any main hand attack now, instead of being predetermined on certain attacks. Having more TWF feats increases the % chance of proccing an off-hand attack.

We would now assume that if your opponent was within range for your first attack, it will still be in range 0.15 seconds later. We also go about determining whether or not a particular swing gets an off-hand attack in a much cleaner manner than before.

We’re also considering introducing a new mechanic to replace some speed bonus effects, called double strike:

A character with a double strike chance has a chance to make an additional attack roll with their main hand weapon any time they make a main hand attack, on the target of the first attack. (Note that two handed weapons count as “in the main hand” for these purposes.)

The Fighter Alacrity capstone, and the Paladin spell Zeal would be changed to a +10% bonuses to double strike.
A TWF Paladin that Smites something under the effect of Zeal would attack with the main hand, have a 10% chance to attack with the main hand again, and would have a chance (based on TWF feats) to attack with the off hand in one sequence. Level 20 Fighters with the capstone would simply always hit twice 10% of the time with their main hands. For a future update, we’re considering revisiting some old items (such as Jorgundal’s Collar, which currently doesn’t stack with Haste) and replacing the effects with a double strike effect.

Proposed Numbers:
A character with no two weapon fighting feats has a base 20% chance to proc off-hand attacks.
The Two Weapon Fighting feat grants a +15% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.
The Improved Two Weapon Fighting feat grants a +10% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.
The Greater Two Weapon Fighting feat grants a +10% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.
Monk Air stances now grant a +5%/+10%/+15%/+20% insight bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks instead of an insight bonus to attack speed. (Enhancement bonus to attack speed remains.)
Ranger Tempest now grants a +10%/+20%/+30% bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks when dual wielding instead of a bonus to attack speed or granting additional off-hand attacks.
Monk Air Stance and Ranger Tempest now stack with each other for these purposes.
Attacks with two handed weapons while moving no longer perform Glancing Blows.

Fighter Alacrity (capstone) now grants a +10% bonus to double attack with the main hand instead of a 10% speed increase.
The Paladin spell Zeal now grants a +10% Sacred bonus to double attack with the main hand instead of a 10% speed increase.

Things like the Shield Bonus and to-hit penalty reductions that Tempest grants when wielding two weapons, or the enhancement bonuses to speed from Wind Stance remain unchanged.

For example, a Ranger 18 (Tempest III) / Monk 2 in Wind Stance I would have a 90% chance to proc off-hand attacks per swing, while a completely unskilled character would only generate off-hand attacks 20% of the time. A Monk 20 in Wind Stance IV would have a 75% chance to trigger off-hand attack hooks.

I won’t hide that these proposed changes do reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting. Skipping the extreme outlier of the Epic Sword of Shadows (we got a little carried away there, didn’t we?), estimated damage output over time for the two styles should be extremely close to each other if we go this route. (Which style is superior ends up being heavily dependent on your character's abilities.)

It’s likely that we’ll change Glancing Blows to operate in a similar manner in the future as well (chance to proc based on feats/enhancements rather than guaranteed on swing X), but right now I have to stay pretty focused on TWF and monk unarmed combat.

These are not the only things we’re currently investigating, and will not solve all of the dps lag issues - it’s one of many steps we’re taking to pursue them. I also highly recommend reading this post and thread - especially the part about intra-DAT fragmentation[step 3] if your install is a year or more old - if you’re suffering serious problems, it may help with some client-side issues.

We wanted to get your reactions and comments to this now though, before (and after) it hits Lamannia.

---

Some sample attack percentages with this system (assuming you took all possible available feats and enhancements) would be:

Build				Main-hand	Off-hand
20 Ranger (Tempest 3)		100%		85%
20 Monk (Wind Stance 4)		100%		75%
20 Fighter (Alacrity)		110%		55%
20 Paladin (Zeal)		110%		55%
20 [Other]			100%		55%
12 Ftr/6 Rng/2 Mnk		100%		70%
15 Pal/3 Mnk/2 [Any] (unarmed)	110%		60%
14 Pal/6 Rng			110%		65%
18 Rgr/2 Mnk			100%		90%

This is a twf nerf plain and simple......

The DPS lag is on the server side...logical solution is to upgrade the server.

Additionally this increases the power of an already OVERPOWERED two handed fighting build with the EIPC SOS (also OVERPOWERED) as to make these toons more desirable melee types... I don't want the game to go back to the days of *if ur not a barb ur not in the grp* AND this WILL happen if you nerf twf.....

A better solution is to NOT have ur server calculate twh probabilities wich WILL cause a different type of lag, have ur server piggyback the damage output. Have ur sever in large grps simply apply all the effects in 1 number. Or have player feedback become secondary...as lag increases have the feedback to the players decrease and not eliminate the effects.

Additionally when striking at 1 opponent (ie main raid boss where most of the lag occurs) elliminate glacing blows completely..there is after all only 1 opponent to hit. Also u could eliminate glacing strikes completely and NOT affect the players (this will just affect the mobs) which YOU guys put in as a way to NERF ac builds.

In short this is a complete nerf...explain it anyway you want but if it looks like sh**, smells like sh**, chances are it is sh**!!!

So here is my 2 cents....fix your problems without nerfing MY builds please!

The Bycher~

Souless/Xbow/Valice/Tazzor/Vampir/Spectyr/Xindao/Richgirl

[Eladrin]

Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:

	Doublestrike	Bonus	Main hand	Off hand
No feats	0	20%	100%		20%
TWF		0	+20%	100%		40%
ITWF		0	+20%	100%		60%
GTWF		0	+20%	100%		80%
STWF		0	+20%	100%		100%
Tempest I	0	+10%	100%		90%
Tempest II	0	+10%	100%		100% 
Tempest III	+5%*	0	105%		100%
Wind IV		+10%	0	110%		80%
Zeal		+10%	0	110%		80%
Alacrity	+10%	0	110%		80%

* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

An alternate chart had the TWF not giving a bonus to off-hand proc rate, but increasing each tier to 25% - so it would have been 25%/25%/50%/75%/100%

[Visty]

An alternate chart had the TWF not giving a bonus to off-hand proc rate, but increasing each tier to 25% - so it would have been 25%/25%/50%/75%/100%

that would bring it more back to pnp, id prefer this version (even the fact that you considered what i suggested is awesome )

[bobbryan2]

Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:

	Doublestrike	Bonus	Main hand	Off hand
No feats	0	20%	100%		20%
TWF		0	+20%	100%		40%
ITWF		0	+20%	100%		60%
GTWF		0	+20%	100%		80%
STWF		0	+20%	100%		100%
Tempest I	0	+10%	100%		90%
Tempest II	0	+10%	100%		100% 
Tempest III	+5%*	0	105%		100%
Wind IV		+10%	0	110%		80%
Zeal		+10%	0	110%		80%
Alacrity	+10%	0	110%		80%

* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

An alternate chart had the TWF not giving a bonus to off-hand proc rate, but increasing each tier to 25% - so it would have been 25%/25%/50%/75%/100%

Still do not think STWF is a good idea. If you're going to require even MORE investment... there needs to be a distinct DPS advantage with TWF over THF.

[Cortho]

Instead of changing the entire combat system, and nerfing many toons, just slow down everything by 10%, monsters and characters.

[Coldin]

Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:

    Doublestrike    Bonus    Main hand    Off hand
No feats    0    20%    100%        20%
TWF        0    +20%    100%        40%
ITWF        0    +20%    100%        60%
GTWF        0    +20%    100%        80%
STWF        0    +20%    100%        100%
Tempest I    0    +10%    100%        90%
Tempest II    0    +10%    100%        100% 
Tempest III    +5%*    0    105%        100%
Wind IV        +10%    0    110%        80%
Zeal        +10%    0    110%        80%
Alacrity    +10%    0    110%        80%

* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

An alternate chart had the TWF not giving a bonus to off-hand proc rate, but increasing each tier to 25% - so it would have been 25%/25%/50%/75%/100%

But what if a Monk has Air Stance VI and Superior TWF?

Do they deal 110% off-hand attacks? What would 110% off-hand attacks be?

Edit: Gah. Didn't see that Windstance turned into a Doublestrike instead.

[GwenJynx]

Please do not add STWF. This will require even more investment and unfairly punish Rogues who will never be able to take the feat without splashing.

[Khelden]

Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:

	Doublestrike	Bonus	Main hand	Off hand
No feats	0	20%	100%		20%
TWF		0	+20%	100%		40%
ITWF		0	+20%	100%		60%
GTWF		0	+20%	100%		80%
STWF		0	+20%	100%		100%
Tempest I	0	+10%	100%		90%
Tempest II	0	+10%	100%		100% 
Tempest III	+5%*	0	105%		100%
Wind IV		+10%	0	110%		80%
Zeal		+10%	0	110%		80%
Alacrity	+10%	0	110%		80%

* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

An alternate chart had the TWF not giving a bonus to off-hand proc rate, but increasing each tier to 25% - so it would have been 25%/25%/50%/75%/100%

I don't think STWF should be added. It's only going to make the TWF population cry more to have better DPS.

[Visty]

But what if a Monk has Air Stance VI and Superior TWF?

Do they deal 110% off-hand attacks? What would 110% off-hand attacks be?

80+20=100

not sure where you got the extra 10% from

[R0cksteady]

Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:

	Doublestrike	Bonus	Main hand	Off hand
No feats	0	20%	100%		20%
TWF		0	+20%	100%		40%
ITWF		0	+20%	100%		60%
GTWF		0	+20%	100%		80%
STWF		0	+20%	100%		100%
Tempest I	0	+10%	100%		90%
Tempest II	0	+10%	100%		100% 
Tempest III	+5%*	0	105%		100%
Wind IV		+10%	0	110%		80%
Zeal		+10%	0	110%		80%
Alacrity	+10%	0	110%		80%

* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

An alternate chart had the TWF not giving a bonus to off-hand proc rate, but increasing each tier to 25% - so it would have been 25%/25%/50%/75%/100%

Well, that leaves TWF fighters with some comparability to Tempest rangers, which is good. Fighter haste should put fighters ahead in DPS, and un fighter-hasted should keep them behind. Like it does now. And this looks like it'll do just that. I'm glad, because I'd sooner stop playing a melee character than respec and regrind for gs ingredients to make up for a silly nerf.

It's good to see our opinions are heard.

[Calebro]

Still do not think STWF is a good idea. If you're going to require even MORE investment... there needs to be a distinct DPS advantage with TWF over THF.

I agree with this statement.

[Angelus_dead]

* Only when wielding two weapons.

Funny, so a Tempest3 with a single Vorpal Longsword can vorpal faster with an offhand club than with a shield... no problem.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses

Funny that Wind Stance just flipped its bias from kama/shortswords to quarterstaff.

and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

I suppose you were already typing this out when the numerous complaints against changing TWF into a four-feat (five or six counting khopesh+otwf) combat style were posted. The D&D rules for feat slots just don't give enough room for getting STWF or not to be a fun decision.

PS. If you want to get THF and TWF closer together, it's possible to work from the other direction and buff the number of glancing blows or the chance of special weapon effects.

[Khelden]

I would strongly suggest addressing one problem at a time.

1st the lag, THEN the TWF-THF balance... Addressing many problems at once has never been a good strategy.

[Isssssa]

We're considering modifications to the bonuses the feats grant, and possibly even bringing back STWF.

This would be a bad idea because TWF build that were already tight on feats lose out even more.

If you want to implement a change like this, make sure it doesn't change the balance of dps. Right now a THF and TWF build can do fairly similar dps. I haven't ran the numbers, but I have a feeling an overall drop in DPS will occur.

Also, the change in zeal means a 10% decrease in DPS for THF paladins. There needs to be something added to what the spell will now do to make up for this nerf to THF builds.

As a general rule, customers will be mad if a change is made to decrease their abilities. A better way to approach this would be to keep the alacrity there as it is. I dont have my game availble to double check, but its something like 2/3, 3/4 and 4/5 main hand attacks with TWF, ITWF and GTWF respectively get the 2nd hand attack. Couldn't the alacrity remain and a 67%, 75% and 80% chance for the 2nd swing proc be added instead. This changes the calculations but keeps the damage output the same as it was previously.