Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Eladrin]

One of the major issues that we’ve been working on is the dps lag problem in high level content (especially raid content). We’re attacking this problem from many angles, and since some of the changes we’re considering will have significant impact on many characters, we’re interested in your feedback before it goes to Lamannia or live. We're trying to aggressively attack the issues that cause these lag problems and are interested in feedback regarding how aggressively we should be attempting to tackle them.

My post is a bit more technical than I normally write for public consumption, but I want to make the issues and the reasons we’re considering these changes extremely clear.

Some people may have noticed that problems occur most often when there are many monks or two weapon fighting characters that are loaded with many on-hit effects attacking en masse. These characters currently perform many attacks very quickly, and each attack is pretty heavy performance-wise. Rather than attack the problem by changing common heavy-load equipment, we’ve already taken some steps to optimize the way we perform attacks, and are considering the following changes to reduce overall performance loads:

Currently a single two weapon fighting attack makes a physics detection check with your main hand, followed by a second detection check for your off hand (roughly 0.15 seconds after the first one). Instead of making multiple physics checks, all two weapon fighting attacks (weapons or unarmed) would now make a single check for your main hand attack, and would “piggyback” on that detection check and have a chance to proc (trigger) an off-hand attack based on the number of two weapon fighting feats (or related enhancements) you possess. Off-hand attacks would have a chance to proc on any main hand attack now, instead of being predetermined on certain attacks. Having more TWF feats increases the % chance of proccing an off-hand attack.

We would now assume that if your opponent was within range for your first attack, it will still be in range 0.15 seconds later. We also go about determining whether or not a particular swing gets an off-hand attack in a much cleaner manner than before.

We’re also considering introducing a new mechanic to replace some speed bonus effects, called double strike:

A character with a double strike chance has a chance to make an additional attack roll with their main hand weapon any time they make a main hand attack, on the target of the first attack. (Note that two handed weapons count as “in the main hand” for these purposes.)

The Fighter Alacrity capstone, and the Paladin spell Zeal would be changed to a +10% bonuses to double strike.
A TWF Paladin that Smites something under the effect of Zeal would attack with the main hand, have a 10% chance to attack with the main hand again, and would have a chance (based on TWF feats) to attack with the off hand in one sequence. Level 20 Fighters with the capstone would simply always hit twice 10% of the time with their main hands. For a future update, we’re considering revisiting some old items (such as Jorgundal’s Collar, which currently doesn’t stack with Haste) and replacing the effects with a double strike effect.

For those that are interested in the “how does that help? You’re still making 11 attacks in 10 swings” – double strikes, like the proposed off-hand attacks, would bypass the additional physics detects and secondary characteristics of normal attacks such as glancing blows, while still providing an increase to overall damage over time. It would have the advantage over speed boosts of sometimes proccing on special attacks, and opens up a new itemization and enhancement pathway. (Warchanters, for instance, are likely to end up with a double strike song in a future update.)

Proposed Numbers:
A character with no two weapon fighting feats has a base 20% chance to proc off-hand attacks.
The Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, and Greater Two Weapon Fighting feats grants a +20% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.
Monk Air stances now grant a +2.5%/+5.0%/+7.5%/+10% insight bonus to double strike chance instead of an insight bonus to attack speed. (Enhancement bonus to attack speed remains.)
Ranger Tempest I and II now grant a +10%/+20% bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks when dual wielding instead of a bonus to attack speed. Ranger Tempest III now grants a +5% double strike chance while wielding two weapons.
Monk Air Stance and Ranger Tempest I and II now stack with each other for these purposes.
Attacks with two handed weapons while moving no longer perform Glancing Blows.

Fighter Alacrity (capstone) now grants a +10% bonus to double attack with the main hand instead of a 10% speed increase.
The Paladin spell Zeal now grants a +10% Sacred bonus to double attack with the main hand instead of a 10% speed increase.

Things like the Shield Bonus and to-hit penalty reductions that Tempest grants when wielding two weapons, or the enhancement bonuses to speed from Wind Stance remain unchanged.

For example, a Ranger 18 (Tempest III) / Monk 2 in Wind Stance I would have a 100% chance to proc off-hand attacks per swing and a 2.5 to 7.5% chance to double strike (depending on whether they are fighting unarmed or with a pair of kamas), while a completely unskilled character would only generate off-hand attacks 20% of the time. A Monk 20 in Wind Stance IV would have a 80% chance to trigger off-hand attack hooks, and a 10% double strike chance.

I won’t hide that these proposed changes do reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting. Skipping the extreme outlier of the Epic Sword of Shadows (we got a little carried away there, didn’t we?), estimated damage output over time for the two styles should be extremely close to each other if we go this route. (Which style is superior ends up being heavily dependent on your character's abilities.)

It’s likely that we’ll change Glancing Blows to operate in a similar manner in the future as well (chance to proc based on feats/enhancements rather than guaranteed on swing X), but right now I have to stay pretty focused on TWF and monk unarmed combat.

These are not the only things we’re currently investigating, and will not solve all of the dps lag issues - it’s one of many steps we’re taking to pursue them. I also highly recommend reading this post and thread - especially the part about intra-DAT fragmentation[step 3] if your install is a year or more old - if you’re suffering serious problems, it may help with some client-side issues.

We wanted to get your reactions and comments to this now though, before (and after) it hits Lamannia.

---

Some sample attack percentages with this system (assuming you took all possible available feats and enhancements) would be:

INVALID CHART FOLLOWS:
Build				Main-hand	Off-hand
20 Ranger (Tempest 3)		100%		85%
20 Monk (Wind Stance 4)		100%		75%
20 Fighter (Alacrity)		110%		55%
20 Paladin (Zeal)		110%		55%
20 [Other]			100%		55%
12 Ftr/6 Rng/2 Mnk		100%		70%
15 Pal/3 Mnk/2 [Any] (unarmed)	110%		60%
14 Pal/6 Rng			110%		65%
18 Rgr/2 Mnk			100%		90%

---

Edit:
Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:

	Doublestrike	Bonus	Main hand	Off hand
No feats	0	20%	100%		20%
TWF		0	+20%	100%		40%
ITWF		0	+20%	100%		60%
GTWF		0	+20%	100%		80%
Tempest I	0	+10%	100%		90%
Tempest II	0	+10%	100%		100% 
Tempest III	+5%*	0	105%		100%
Wind IV		+10%	0	110%		80%
Zeal		+10%	0	110%		80%
Alacrity	+10%	0	110%		80%

* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF.

Edit 2:
Updated information in the main post to reflect the most recent changes.

[GoldyGopher]

I'm not sure I am reading this right, but in general what I am seeing is you are going to Nerf TWF by reducing the output of the offhand while increasing the procs in the mainhand?

Don't get me wrong, its not like I would totally disagree with what you are doing, but ...

[Eladrin]

I'm not sure I am reading this right, but in general what I am seeing is you are going to Nerf TWF by reducing the output of the offhand while increasing the procs in the mainhand?

It reduces the number of permanent speed increases in the game that are doing nasty things behind the scenes, significantly reduces the overhead in a bunch of the calculations, and makes the off-hand more unpredictable than before. It is also (on average) reducing the frequency of off-hand attacks.

How about you nerf the greensteel and not the monks.

I am actively seeking to avoid making broad changes to existing treasure systems.

[Creeper]

It reduces the number of permanent speed increases in the game that are doing nasty things behind the scenes

Then:

(Wind still grants the enhancement bonus to attack speed.)

I am confused. Wind stance still grants attack speed bonus AND double hit bonus, or are you saying it only grants speed bonus on THF but not TWF?

Then, I want to comment: This really, really nerfs monks, who suffer no str or to-hit penalties to off-hand unarmed attacks, the most I think. Making off-hand attacks as valuable as main hand attacks to monks.

Will these double strikes have a "hook" with ITWF and GTWF?
The un-diminished offhand damage and the ability to do elemental ki strikes and finishers on a hook (2 in 1) is why you see monks getting kills equal to other DPS classes.

On an unrelated note: Will monks be able to hit things that are moving now?

I am suspect of this, because I do not think it will reduce lag, but think it may nerf TWF and be the biggest across-the-board nerf we have ever seen. Is this a bad thing? We'll have to wait and see!

[Eladrin]

Catching up on the thread while I eat my lunch. This may take a bit. Apologies for not including post links in my quotes past the first one.

I am confused. Wind stance still grants attack speed bonus AND double hit bonus, or are you saying it only grants speed bonus on THF but not TWF?

Wind Stance (on live) grants an enhancement bonus and an insight bonus to attack speed. We're replacing the insight bonus with a bonus to off-hand attack proc chance.

Will these double strikes have a "hook" with ITWF and GTWF?

I don't quite understand this question.

If you possess a double strike chance (which initially only the Fighter Capstone and Zeal provide) you have a 10% chance of getting an extra main hand attack any time you press the attack button.

If you possess ITWF or GTWF, your off-hand proc chance is increased by 10%.

The un-diminished offhand damage and the ability to do elemental ki strikes and finishers on a hook (2 in 1) is why you see monks getting kills equal to other DPS classes.

If you perform a "special attack", such as a ki strike or finisher (or trip, or stun), those secondary effects carry over to all attacks that are performed as part of that swing. You primary attack, any procced double strike, and any procced off hand attack will all do whatever it is.

Question: Is there any difference between the physic check and the attack role? If Not then why not just enable the off hand attack to use the same physic check and a different attack role? If you can do that, than nothing else needs to change.

We are using the same physics detect as your main hand attack, and then doing the attack rolls for additional hits.

20 Fighter (Alacrity) 110% 55% (20(base) 15(twf) 10(itwf) 10(gtwf) = 55
Shouldn't this be 65 b/c alacrity gives an additional 10%?
20 Paladin (Zeal) 110% 55% same here, assuming zeal

Alacrity and Zeal grant a double strike bonus, which is why the main hand is at 110% on the chart.

The chaining of the off hand to main hand is the lag fix. The reduced rate of swings of off hand is the nerf.

This is correct. I'm certain that people have noticed that dps lag is worst off when you have a large number of dual wielding or unarmed monks in the party. We didn't want to attack the equipment they're using, but decreasing the number of off-hand attacks has a significant effect on the problem, while also bringing weapon styles closer together in general balance.

So, 4 rolls/calculations in either case...

But wait, if you don't proc your off hand then it's one less calculation!

Some calculations are much lighter than others. A postcard and an unabridged set of encyclopedias aren't the same thing just because they're both made of paper.

So how will critical hits with the "off-hand" now work, since there will no longer be an attack and comfirmation roll for it?

When an off-hand attack triggers, it has a standard attack and confirmation roll. Instead of always getting off-hand attacks on certain attacks, you instead have a % chance of getting an off hand attack on every swing.

Especially since you have admitted multiple times to be willing to tweak the system to what seems to balance out pre/post patch dps the best while maintaining an acceptable amount of reduction to dps lag.

Absolutely. I expect it to get modified post-Lamannia, as well as in subsequent updates.

What I am a bit confused on, is if you are adding additional proc effects, like Double Strike, that cause calculations/animations/effect, how does that lessen lag?

Adds a little in Pile A, lowers it in Pile B. If the amount that Pile B goes down is more than the amount that Pile A goes up, all is slightly better in the world.

I'm not seeing any issues with the actual process being used, but the reduced damage is going to anger a lot of people.

That's useful feedback as well. We're attacking the lag issues because people often say it's the most important thing for them. If maintaining their DPS is more critical to them than a smoother play experience, that's valuable for us to know, and we'll look at other, less aggressive (or different) options to solve the problems. I'd bet that greensteel weapons would be changing significantly in a future update if we revert these changes.

So since monks will have a change to double strike with Touch of Death, or get an off hand strike with Touch of Death (aren't they the same in the monk's case?), would this change also include monks being able to use Touch of Death with weapons - for example, shortswords if they are a ninja spy?

No changes have been made to the mechanics behind Touch of Death, Stunning Fist, or Quivering Palm at this time. I'll have to go in and check to see the exact way we're currently triggering these - it's possible that my earlier posts regarding these specific attacks are in error. Other ki strikes (the ones that don't require the unarmed combat style) would absolutely be triggering on the extra attacks.

a monk in Wind4 will have 25% fewer offhand attacks and 20% overall slower attack speed then they currently have.

Wind IV only grants a 10% Insight bonus to attack speed currently on the live servers.

are you seriously delaying update 5 to do this?

No?

This change will allow a choice between THF and TWF, instead of TWF suprematie.

This is desirable. If the pendulum swings too far in the other direction adjustments will, of course, be made.

But there isn't 0.15 seconds of time between the mainhand and offhand portion of a TWF swing...? It can be logically simultaneous, and thus share in the physics result with no concern for movement rate.

That's essentially what we're changing to. Currently all TWF attacks have two detects a fraction of a second apart. It's silly.

There's an interesting question about why you went ahead with Epic SOS after it had been leaked and the overpoweredness had been thoroughly discussed.

Momentary insanity.

Why would the goal be to get TWF and THF close to each other? Why would anyone put in the bigger investment to get TWF if it not better than THF?

TWF requires dexterity and strength, while THF only needs strength.
TWF has a penalty on attack rolls, while THF does not.
THF has more damage against groups, while TWF has no such bonus.
TWF requires obtaining twice the number of weapons, which closely equates to twice the Shroud runs.
TWF requires devoting twice the inventory slots to weapons.
TWF loses more of the effectiveness if you don't have all three feats.

TWF has some advantages too, such as an increased number of magical item slots available for customization (since we don't currently put more treasure effects on two handed weapons), and potentially more versatility.

if this works to lessen the lag, can we finally do away with the number one most unrealistic game mechanic used right now that claims to do just that? I am referring to DA here.

Dungeon Alert actually does help by making it suboptimal to create situations where there are a large number of monsters in a small area. (Dungeons where it automatically triggers through no action of your own need to have their spawns changed.)

I've always thought that THF should be king of DAMAGE.... but TWF should be king of effects...

Think about the rogue with 2 radiance II rapiers... That second rapier is only being used 55% of the time now? Ouch...

That's still more effect applications than two handed styles get.

I can guarantee you that NONE of the replies posted in this thread matter at all to the people making the decisions.

Incorrect. Much like when we changed the death penalty, these discussions are valuable to find holes that we missed and to shape the end results.

I would like to test this in a raid with TWF, ITWF, GTWF feats each granting a 20% bonus to proc off-hand attacks, instead of 15%, 10%, 10%.

We'll be looking at the effects on Lamannia to determine if there should be changes made. It's quite possible that the numbers will shift.

Currently, Touch of Death does not have any chance of procing a second unarmed attack

Yeah, I was probably wrong on that one. Should fix that entire chain of special attacks. Ideally you'll perform an unarmed attack regardless of what's in your hands.

What happens if this doesn't really solve the problem?

I can pretty much guarantee that it won't solve every instance. We've got a bunch of people investigating from other angles.

Example, my wife and I were running Iron Maw the other day and we would get a RED for simply waking into a room when we had NO other aggro.

That's an example of an area that should be bugged, and the area needs to be adjusted.

Also would you be willing to balance this nerf with some mob's having their HP's & immunities modified?

We're open to making adjustments.

Eladrin is a he, he is the voice of harry in the shroud.

That wasn't me, that was Eldorudo.

why should we assume that ToD should be the special case here?

Some of the monk special attacks don't follow the normal pathways other attacks do.

I'll toss out a semi-wacky idea, which would not maintain the existing game balance:
Make the chance for offhand attacks with the TWF feat series somehow dependent on actual current dexterity.

Interesting thought.

I'm hitting submit now because I'm deathly afraid of someone stepping on my power switch. To be continued!

[tihocan]

I'm hitting submit now because I'm deathly afraid of someone stepping on my power switch.

That would be someone with a TWF build on live

[Cyr]

TWF has some advantages too, such as an increased number of magical item slots available for customization (since we don't currently put more treasure effects on two handed weapons), and potentially more versatility.

DPS is the only thing driving people to make TWF builds. Running epic there are more and more THF builds now. Why would people expend all these extra resources (build, time/equipment) for an item slot that if you use for non-dps purposes drops your dps below a THF build now? My monk splash build Sharess is twf now and finesse. Has radiance rapier and a lightning 2 rapier. She's an AC build and uses insight +4 on her GS. This change goes in and she's TR'ing the moment she hits 20 into a THF toon. That's preposterous when a build that has all the perfect equipment for TWF AC build (which she does) is still going to dump it over board and go THF based upon a mechanic change. Her dps loss from this change is just far too drastic if I think grinding for an epic SoS will net me more dps increase then my current setup ever could net me.

[Creeper]

If you perform a "special attack", such as a ki strike or finisher (or trip, or stun), those secondary effects carry over to all attacks that are performed as part of that swing. You primary attack, any procced double strike, and any procced off hand attack will all do whatever it is.

Ah, good to know. Thanks!

[Quikster]

TWF has some advantages too, such as an increased number of magical item slots available for customization (since we don't currently put more treasure effects on two handed weapons), and potentially more versatility.

But you need to look at the whole picture. To be effective twf needs a minimum of 3 feats, thf needs 1. TWF costs tons more in stat points (min 4 for an elf with a +3 tome, more likely 7 build points and a +2 tome) where thf costs very little as many melees put an emphasis on str. TWF costs tons in weapons costs, not just ingredients for greensteel, but if you carry a vorpal, you need two, if you carry a gcb, you need 2, if you carry a weighted weapon, you need two, and on, and on, and on. Finally you need to find a way to boost your too hit as you suffer the penalty if you cant afford the extra feat, or you wield light offhand weapons (which is not even being considered here and further compounds this problem)


So over all most twf:

Have lower to hit
have less free inventory space
Have a very large (double) cost associated with outfitting a build with weapons (this imo is offset by the additional magical properties you mentioned)
Have larger stat investmet
Potentially have a larger feat investment.


With all these considered, adding a dps decrease basically kills it as a fighting style. Currently the gap is acceptable imo. I have heard nobody complain about twf vs thf in a very long time now, this change will basically kill twf as a damage style comared to thf, and make how many people want to respec how many alts with how many gs weapons sets? Mine carry x2 of the following: LS MIN II X3 pos at a minimum. Thats 6 dualshard weapons, or 120 larges across 15 or so alts, thats 1800 larges that i would have to eat to switch all my twf over to thf. Thats certainly not going to happen.

[dkyle]

That's still more effect applications than two handed styles get.

To be honest, it's irrelevant. At end game the only procs we care about are DPS procs. And even with those procs, THF Barb beats Tempest III even without eSoS:

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=269

Maybe I missed something in my calculations, but if they're correct, shouldn't the extra effort required for TWF count for something? My calcs even assume a scenario about as favorable to Tempest III as is possible. Throw in DR, non-favored enemy, fortification, no Bard, and it's going to fall behind even futher.

Vorpal, Banishing and so forth are handy at some times, but considering they don't work in Epics, and are only marginally useful in endgame Raids (taking out trash that barely matter in the first place), that's not going to be a reason to choose TWF over THF.

Can't we just see if the single physics check alone fixes the lag?

EDIT: Re: versatility of TWF

The only people I can think of that carry two different weapons in their hands because it's optimal for the situation are Spellcasters, and the occasional stunner with a weighted warhammer in one hand, and a burster in the other.

Given the nature of the end game, if the versatility can't be used to increase DPS, it's essentially irrelevant.

[Sillk]

This is correct. I'm certain that people have noticed that dps lag is worst off when you have a large number of dual wielding or unarmed monks in the party. We didn't want to attack the equipment they're using, but decreasing the number of off-hand attacks has a significant effect on the problem, while also bringing weapon styles closer together in general balance.!

But should the different weapon styles be closer together? TWF carries a number of things to overcome. You MUST have a Dex of 15 (17 for ITWF & GTWF) unless you get the feat for free. There's a chance to miss because of penalties to the second hand. And it takes up 3 feats. A Two Weapon Fighting Barbarian would have to sacrifice something to get a 17 Dex, use 3 feats for the TWF line, AND could still miss due to a lower strength (because of the points given to Dex), or die faster (lower Con as points may be given to Dex), or just miss because of a penalty to the style. This shouldn't be closer in DPS to a Barbarian that is swinging a Great Axe, without any penalties to hit, without a minimum to any stat to achieve, and no extra Feats needed. The THF line deals more damage to the surrounding mob, but I'm focusing on the single target here.

That's useful feedback as well. We're attacking the lag issues because people often say it's the most important thing for them. If maintaining their DPS is more critical to them than a smoother play experience, that's valuable for us to know, and we'll look at other, less aggressive (or different) options to solve the problems. I'd bet that greensteel weapons would be changing significantly in a future update if we revert these changes.

I am on the keeping DPS up and looking elsewhere, at least for the time being. The top DPS builds in this game, and something people aspire to, are TWF. Gear has been acquried, or crafted, characters are TR'ing into these builds, etc. Sudden changes will probably result in a number of angry customers, and conspiracy theorists, who then have to use Turbine Points for +3 & +5 Hearts of Wood to fix these problems. If there is going to be a major DPS change, let us know NOW that in DECEMBER, it'll change. There wasn't much of a problem with the Minos Legens change because we knew about it long before it was changed.

[Borror0]

There's an interesting question about why you went ahead with Epic SOS after it had been leaked and the overpoweredness had been thoroughly discussed.

Momentary insanity.

Still catching up on the thread but that reply is is full of win.

[Angelus_dead]

estimated damage output over time for the two styles should be extremely close to each other if we go this route.

I wonder about the details of the TWF and THF styles under consideration there:
1. Is the TWF guy considered to be khopesh or rapier? All THF people are greataxe or falchion, but TWF characters may have a big difference in critical power.
2. Is the THF guy using his declared attack animation, or breaking it for more swings?

TWF has some advantages too, such as an increased number of magical item slots available for customization (since we don't currently put more treasure effects on two handed weapons), and potentially more versatility.

Yes, but that's more a theoretical advantage. Given the loot that exists in DDO currently those factors provide hardly any benefit (even if we pretend epic two-handers didn't have ultra crits).

The best case for TWF's double slots being a real benefit is if you want +4 Insight AC on greensteel, but can still take Acid/Shocking Burst on the other weapon. That's a fairly small bonus, especially given the low value of AC at present.

We'll be looking at the effects on Lamannia to determine if there should be changes made. It's quite possible that the numbers will shift.

On Lamannia it will be pretty hard to test the changes, because there is no practical way a TWF character can be converted to the THF equivalent for experimentation. There isn't a button to move dex into str, swap three feats, and replace every weapon. The results of Lamannia testing will mostly be totally predictable: people with TWF characters will report a moderate drop in offensive effectiveness against monsters. We know that'll happen, unless there's a major implementation error by a programmer.

The interesting question is how much the reduced effectiveness (along with the higher cost) reduces the attractiveness of playing TWF characters, but a short-term test on a special server can't answer that. It would take months to get observations relating to the effort of equipping characters.

[Tharlak]

That's useful feedback as well. We're attacking the lag issues because people often say it's the most important thing for them. If maintaining their DPS is more critical to them than a smoother play experience, that's valuable for us to know, and we'll look at other, less aggressive (or different) options to solve the problems. I'd bet that greensteel weapons would be changing significantly in a future update if we revert these changes.

This statement is a bit odd to me.

If the purpose of this change is to reduce lag, then how does greensteel come into play. Is there a lag difference if you are swinging a Greensteel sword vs a masterwork?

All I am seeing is that this is a DPS adjustment.

You could use the same fix for collision detection that you propose without adjusting the DPS much. Why not start with balancing the off hand procs / double strikes, etc to mirror current DPS. The lag factor should still be addressed, it lag doesn't change then this was not the issue anyway. Why meld the DPS change with the Lag fix?

[Gratch]

Why would the goal be to get TWF and THF close to each other? Why would anyone put in the bigger investment to get TWF if it not better than THF?

TWF requires dexterity and strength, while THF only needs strength.
TWF has a penalty on attack rolls, while THF does not.
THF has more damage against groups, while TWF has no such bonus.
TWF requires obtaining twice the number of weapons, which closely equates to twice the Shroud runs.
TWF requires devoting twice the inventory slots to weapons.
TWF loses more of the effectiveness if you don't have all three feats.

TWF has some advantages too, such as an increased number of magical item slots available for customization (since we don't currently put more treasure effects on two handed weapons), and potentially more versatility.

Though you have a point... the post you quoted has 6 points. 6 > 1.

My guild of character builders and I need a better explanation of why it's okay for THF and TWF to be even DPS wise vs. a single target given the points above. i.e., why the nerf? You can enact the physics change without the nerf or at least with less of it than the current ~20% proposed.

And sadly, I would say in most cases your versatility argument only applies to trash. If I'm hitting Velah/Sulo/raid bosses... I mostly just want pure DPS... as most of the versatile fx (like imp destruction, weighted, smantle, etc) either don't apply to raid bosses or don't need to be applied every (other) hit. In fact there's a number of DPS cases where I wish there was no versatility and I had two duplicates of the main hand weapon.

[sephiroth1084]

I'd bet that greensteel weapons would be changing significantly in a future update if we revert these changes.

As unpopular a topic as it may be for some people, greensteel weapons should probably get looked at for an adjustment irrespective of what happens with this lag fix. And obviously, we would need deconstruction to go along with whatever adjustments are made.

[Blivit]

This thread is over 145 pages long now, and I don't have time to read through it all. So, sorry if I've missed previous discussion that is important. I did at least read all of Eladrin's responses so far.

I play a healing amp monk, and as has been discussed recently in the thread, decreasing the number of hits per second decreases ki generation, which is very undesirable (to me at least), since I use it as a major source of healing. I'm wondering if there are other ways to optimize the attack calculations without simply reducing the number of attacks.

What are the major sources of lag? Is it computations on the server side? Packet exchanges between cilent and server? Which contributes more?

I will assume that random number generation itself, for rolls, is not a significant source of calculation time. However, if we assume that Turbine is using a statistically acceptable random number generator such as the Mersenne Twister, rather than something horribly bad like a linear congruential generator, then perhaps the calculations can be a little costly if the server load is really large (?). If the random number generator is taking a significant amount of time, and isn't already using a very fast method, then I would suggest using an XOR-shifter such as those of George Marsaglia (http://www.jstatsoft.org/v08/i14/paper), which pass most or all the DIEHARD tests for randomness and are very simple and fast to calculate. The period 2^32 - 1 method is super-simple (I suggest [<<6,<<5,>>13], most of the other combinations don't actually work correctly), and is PLENTY good enough for dice rolling purposes, since it passes all but two of the most stringent DIEHARD tests. I might also assume that if random number generation would have been a significant facor, a large number of dice rolls would be pre-rolled ahead of time during lighter load and cached for when they are needed later, thus making any discussion of random number generation time moot. Since I don't know anything about how things are coded behind the scenes, I'm just throwing this out there as possible problems and solutions.

We are using the same physics detect as your main hand attack, and then doing the attack rolls for additional hits.

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When an off-hand attack triggers, it has a standard attack and confirmation roll. Instead of always getting off-hand attacks on certain attacks, you instead have a % chance of getting an off hand attack on every swing.

Next, is the lag packet exchange related? If off-hand attack physics checks will now be based on the primary hand, why not just roll both attacks into a single damage packet, since they are both occuring at the same "time"? Rather than getting two sets of number scrolling above the enemy's head, why not add the damage results of the primary and secondary attacks together and send them as one packet of information, rather than two separate packets of information? So, you'd get only 4 sets of floating numbers per round (assuming normal attack speed), but each set would contain the total damage from both the primary and off-hand attacks that went with the primary attack. Some players might miss seeing the individual damage results, but I think most would prefer lumping them together rather than a nerf. I don't know how much overhead goes into sending/receiving the information that goes into causing the separate packets of damage to be displayed over the enemy's head, but perhaps consolidating them into bundles for each corresponding primary attack would help? Again, since I don't know the details, I'm just throwing this out there as an idea.

There's actually been a lot of very useful feedback in this thread.

Some things are very light, performance-wise. "Chance to proc" is one of the lightest calculations available.

Edit: Actually, even those chance to proc checks are improvements, since it's no longer checking your feats constantly, but instead looking at a cached value.

This got me to wondering if the weapons themselves are cached, or need to be looked up for every attack. If they, like the feats, were not cached before, are they cached now (updating cache on each weapon change), and if not, could this help too? The same goes for stats and other bonuses. Were they previously uncached, and are they now cached (updated only on equipment, stance, etc. change) to improve performance further?

I don't mean to question the technical competency of the developers, especially since I have no idea how things are actually implemented. These were just thoughts that came to mind, and when the nerf bat comes a-swinging, I just wanted to throw out any ideas that might help shield against it.

[Steiner-Davion]

Question: Is there any difference between the physic check and the attack role? If Not then why not just enable the off hand attack to use the same physic check and a different attack role? If you can do that, than nothing else needs to change.

We are using the same physics detect as your main hand attack, and then doing the attack rolls for additional hits.

So why not just test out this change by itself and see how it affects performance before making such a radical change to the combat system?

[Pithrin]

It reduces the number of permanent speed increases in the game that are doing nasty things behind the scenes, significantly reduces the overhead in a bunch of the calculations, and makes the off-hand more unpredictable than before. It is also (on average) reducing the frequency of off-hand attacks.

/twf; monk nerf

I am actively seeking to avoid making broad changes to existing treasure systems.

Could we at least bring the light/dark monks on par with everyone's GS goodness and get wraps?

Loosing speed and the frequency of off-hand attacks for all TWF's but keeping GS as it is (still excluding monks primary weapons) isn't going to sit well with the growing monk community.

[Captain_Wizbang]

[quote=Eladrin;2989154]It reduces the number of permanent speed increases in the game that are doing nasty things behind the scenes, significantly reduces the overhead in a bunch of the calculations, and makes the off-hand more unpredictable than before. It is also (on average) reducing the frequency of off-hand attacks.
I am actively seeking to avoid making broad changes to existing treasure systems.[/quot



If this is the case, I would assume haste can be looked at as a viable reduction to dps lag, (or rather different attack speeds by multiple players is the real demon)
As you have hinted to, it is these differences in attacks, that when in larger groups (raids)
Is a contributing factor.

If you would please explain that to folks a little better, as there are few that have knowledge about how following different data streams in a "quest/ raid instance" is affecting the overall "lag" issues we see.


On that note, if you are going to "fudge" "attacks per round" timing, would you also consider having the main data stream for a quest, qualify these multiple parameters into a prorated reduction in overall melee performance based on the current scaling system? (I mean if you can implement scaling (TY) you should be able to quantify that into the players entering that instance)