Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Swedishchef]

The Devs have pointed out a few times somewhere way waay WAAAAAAAYYY above up-thread that the DPS lag is not hardware/server related, and I can actually confirm that they are telling the truth about this.

I play in Europe, which has a VERY low population on each server, and we *still* get the DPS lag in the same places as in US, even when there may be fewer than 50 people online at the time.

Nat, i played on the Eu servers with 15 capped toons and i never had any lagg close to this (with the exception of the subterain, when the VoD+hound raid was released and that was due to the **** teleporting devils), tbh i never lagged in shroud etc the only person i know that did was running on a virgin connection from the outsikrts of hillbilly U.K.

This was with full dps twinkage dualwielders only in grp.

*Disclaimer: This was pre DA and pre ToD+there were more people playing bk then (on keeper)*

[WirelessJoe]

The Devs have pointed out a few times somewhere way waay WAAAAAAAYYY above up-thread that the DPS lag is not hardware/server related, and I can actually confirm that they are telling the truth about this.

I play in Europe, which has a VERY low population on each server, and we *still* get the DPS lag in the same places as in US, even when there may be fewer than 50 people online at the time.

Technically speaking, at least from what I have understood from Eladrin's explanations, it's a software-related networking issue, where the software is unable to properly synchronise and manage various computer to computer communications in certain scenarios, and especially where 12 client computers and 1 server need to be talking with each other during certain very heavy processing tasks requiring realtime responses from each machine networking into the instances -- for example : 12 people beating Harry up with the maximum amounts of DPS that they can physically manage on their uber-twinked endgame toons and more 2WF than you can shake a stick at.

Thanks again; and that sounds just as bad: fixing a software issue not by fixing the software, but by changing the rules to match what the software can handle.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

Using AO/Yargore or whoevers most recent DPS calculator:

Pure TWF Fighter specced for max DPS including max DPS equipment against trash (5 minutes) -> 589.24

Pure THF Fighter (epic sos) same rules as above -> 677.84

You do know that epic sos is the exception here, right?
A very small percentage of the THF builds have it.
Greensteel is much more wide spread.

You should use the same version of weapon you used for the TWF calculation in order for the comparison to be valid.

[Razcar]

I can answer that.

A.) Someone on the dev team has a real liking for THF, it's obvious, I mean look at the monstrosity eSoS.

Nah, I think that all they see and care about is that TWF is stealing more of their CPU cycles than THF is. Even with the proposed changes. That is why they want to nerf it, and want it to become less popular. They do not care about players' grinding or quitting or whatever, that's for the finance department to worry about.

And on a similar note, I would bet a lot of money that not one DDO dev has ever grinded out a tier III weapon in the Shroud on a production server. Not one, ever. I'm sure they care a lot about this game, but in an entirely different way than a player cares about it. Which is perfectly understandable. They made it. We play it.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

If someone here actually bothers to do the calculations rather than just complaining (Maybe MrCow can step in here...?) - I think you will find that assuming you are able to take stwf or tempest II, the dps loss is around 10% in total.

This matches the dps loss that barbarians will get when their precious bugged capstone loses the 10% alacrity, and to be honest I would be surprised if Eladrin doesn't nerf the eSoS given the feedback here (and his comment in the OP). Eladrin said in his OP that he believes this will bring twf and thf into line, so I'm sure he's done a lot of calculations (he after all knows all the proc rates of everything, and probably is able to see all the statistics of player items/stats/combat logs and all sorts of useful dev things that - things we mostly have to guess). I'm inclined to believe him.

So really this is just a nerf to general combat dps across all classes (except perhaps the kensai thf, which seems to be getting a relative buff).

The classes that get hit the most are the feat starved ones (e.g. melee fvs/clerics) and those without full bab (e.g. rogues, monks), but even those ones are only being hit with maybe a 15% dps loss.

This change, combined with a 10% reduction in mob hit points would make little to no difference to gameplay, in fact given it took the player community several weeks (months?) to even realize that barbarian capstone was bugged, how many people here would have actually noticed if Eladrin had just thrown this into the game without telling anyone? I bet the cries of 'omg the lag is fixed' (Assuming the lag fix does work!) would drown the cries of 'omg I noticed that 10% of the time I do not get a dice roll for my offhand attack in my combat log that I can't even export/save anyway'.

There seems to be a lot of hysteria in this thread (and I've read every post so far), and the number of decent suggestions dropped off to pretty much 0 around page 40.

Garth

[Natashaelle]

Nat, i played on the Eu servers with 15 capped toons and i never had any lagg close to this

Well, we're getting it now.

You know, thinking about it, it may have cropped up only relatively recently because the European servers are now almost exclusively inhabited by powergamers, contrary to the situation even 4-6 months ago ...

[WirelessJoe]

considering twf looses only about 8% overall dps, yes i am comparing them

I thought the established calculation was 10%, as in 20% in the off hand? In any case, as I posted before, with fewer crits from my off hand, that makes 20% fewer radience blinding opportunities, which means more than a 8-10% reduction in DPS for me due to missing the auto-crit numbers for each subsequent swing. I know that's a more limited subset than what's generally been discussed, but it's the entire "other" in Eladrin's little calculation box.

[Razcar]

Would you mind showing some numbers supporting your claim that twf and non-twitch 2h has damage numbers extremely close to each other?

If we don't include "the momentary insanity" I just can't get what you are talking about.

Dude, ask Eladrin. It's his quote. That they will become (not are by the way) "Extremely close". And he should know better than our reversed engineered spread sheets do, don't you think?

[Consumer]

You do know that epic sos is the exception here, right?
A very small percentage of the THF builds have it.
Greensteel is much more wide spread.

You should use the same version of weapon you used for the TWF calculation in order for the comparison to be valid.

I would but the resulting THF numbers are embarrassing.

[Swedishchef]

Well, we're getting it now.

You know, thinking about it, it may have cropped up only relatively recently because the European servers are now almost exclusively inhabited by powergamers, contrary to the situation even 4-6 months ago ...

SoZ for ot but: The *real* powergamers either left for the U.S or are gone (all except Blafs and he doesn´t count due to his stubbornes). Last time i talked to Blafs he also mentioned your running your über clr but now trd powergamers yeah right.

Again soz for OT.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

I would but the resulting THF numbers are embarrassing.

And that means that all the uproar about this nerf is rather silly.
We all knew that epic sos was the best weapon in the game.

[Natashaelle]

SoZ for ot but: The *real* powergamers either left for the U.S or are gone (all except Blafs and he doesn´t count due to his stubbornes). Last time i talked to Blafs he also mentioned your running your über clr but now trd powergamers yeah right.

Again soz for OT.

I'm unsurprised at such comments LOL

There are virtually zero casual players and a mere trickle of occasional noobs on the European servers, your sarcasm notwithstanding. <<< This is NOT a good thing, ofc.

The point is that we are currently getting DPS lag on our very unpopulated servers, no matter what your past experiences there may have been like.

[Borror0]

The gist of it is this:

Do you, Vist, agree that TWF costs more in grinding time and reources than THF, yes or no?
Do you agree that TWF costs more in stat allocation, yes or no?
Do you agree that TWF costs more in feats, yes or no?
Do you agree that TWF also has a built in to-hit disadvantage?

Then why on earth should the "damage output... be extremely close to each other"?
Riddle me that.

The balance between THF and TWF needs a lot of work, and I don't only mean DPS. I mean that, unless several changes are made to different aspect of the combat styles, they cannot be balanced. Like you said, TWF costs a lot more in time and build points from the player.

The problem is that:

1. TWF cannot neatly superior simply because it requires twice the grind.
2. The stat allocation penalty is not significant for certain build, for whom TWF would be obviously superior if given greater DPS.
3. TWF cannot neatly superior simply because it has a to-hit disadvantage. Superior, yes, but the gap cannot be too large.

Eventually, they have to start somewhere. Depending on what Eladrin means by "extremely close" it could be the first step of many toward a semblance of balance. Under the current design, either will be neatly superior to the other.

[Angelus_dead]

I can leave it out, but thought that including it as an option would be beneficial.

Another problem with the STWF feat that I haven't seen spelled-out yet is how it would be strongly biased in favor of True Reincarnated characters. The presumed dexterity requirement for STWF would make the nerf much bigger for 28 point characters, while leaving 34s or 36s best able to stay close to their current offhand attack ratio.

For a non-finesse character to qualify for GTWF is already pretty tough, and causes a noticeable drop in other stats. Just take a look at a TWF Paladin built with 28 points! The 19 dexterity of STWF would be even harder to reach, and pretty much take it from "expensive" to "prohibitive".

[Auran82]

Another problem with the STWF feat that I haven't seen spelled-out yet is how it would be strongly biased in favor of True Reincarnated characters. The presumed dexterity requirement for STWF would make the nerf much bigger for 28 point characters, while leaving 34s or 36s best able to stay close to their current offhand attack ratio.

For a non-finesse character to qualify for GTWF is already pretty tough, and causes a noticeable drop in other stats. Just take a look at a TWF Paladin built with 28 points! The 19 dexterity of STWF would be even harder to reach, and pretty much take it from "expensive" to "prohibitive".

Maybe the release of STWF will be coupled with the release of +5 Dex tomes in the store.

If all these changes go ahead, I personally just hope that they get the rest of the balancing right, mob hp etc.

[Natashaelle]

For a non-finesse character to qualify for GTWF is already pretty tough, and causes a noticeable drop in other stats. Just take a look at a TWF Paladin built with 28 points! The 19 dexterity of STWF would be even harder to reach, and pretty much take it from "expensive" to "prohibitive".

The D&D prereq for GTWF is 19 Dex too, but we have 17 for it in DDO.

We can *hope* that they will continue this way for STWF...

[Coldin]

In regards to STWF, I think it's best that it doesn't get implemented. At least not any time soon.

Rogues, monks, and bards aren't going to be able to take it unless they multiclass. And as explained by someone else earlier, any Tempest Ranger would probably be better off simply getting STWF than paying the heavy cost for Tempest I+II+III.

STWF is probably best left off as a feat to implement should Epic levels ever come.

[Consumer]

Another problem with the STWF feat that I haven't seen spelled-out yet is how it would be strongly biased in favor of True Reincarnated characters. The presumed dexterity requirement for STWF would make the nerf much bigger for 28 point characters, while leaving 34s or 36s best able to stay close to their current offhand attack ratio.

For a non-finesse character to qualify for GTWF is already pretty tough, and causes a noticeable drop in other stats. Just take a look at a TWF Paladin built with 28 points! The 19 dexterity of STWF would be even harder to reach, and pretty much take it from "expensive" to "prohibitive".

It would make Drow and Elves more popular for DPS toons in some cases though.

[Tamerlane]

there are a few ideas that are still coming up that i wanted to comment on.

1) some people keep suggesting that they would prefer a slow down in speed rather than a loss in the number of attacks per chain. I want to remind everyone that when haste was changed recently, that is exactly what they tried to do, and so many people complained and threatened to quit that they had to go back and speed things up again. I dont see that as being viable as a solution. it wasnt the first time they tried it.

2) in order for "haste" effects to remain at the same rate of effect, they would need to be applied to the main and offhand at the same rate. a 10% "haste effect" would need 10% mainhand doublestrike and a 10% increase to offhand attacks to maintain an overall 10% increase in attacks. This would allow wind stance to continue to increase attacks for staff wielders, etc.

3) the argument is being made that TWF is being unfairly hit by this change because guaranteed offhand attacks are being traded for chances to attack, thus lowering the overall dps of a style that deserves to be the best because it already costs more to use. Suggesting that something should stay the same just because it "has always been that way" isnt a very solid argument. Also, when the overwhelming majority of people choose TWF as their primary form of dps it should be easy to see that the value (power) of TWF currently is more then its investment (cost in feats) and is comparatively overpowered. additionally it has been stated that changing it from a static chain to a chance to proc offhand attacks (even if that chance where 100%) would help reduce computational overhead because it would be checking a chached number instead of doing a check against your feat list.

[Razcar]

The classes that get hit the most are the feat starved ones (e.g. melee fvs/clerics) and those without full bab (e.g. rogues, monks), but even those ones are only being hit with maybe a 15% dps loss.
....
There seems to be a lot of hysteria in this thread (and I've read every post so far), and the number of decent suggestions dropped off to pretty much 0 around page 40.

So you think 15% DPS loss, just like that, to a already weak class is nothing? A class that has no other realistic option than to use TWF? Okay.