Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Natashaelle]

As others have pointed outline not only do Fighters far outstrip ranger TWF DPS, they also get many more attacks per minute due to Fighter haste boost.

Below 20th level this is also true, by level 12 a pure Fighter has up to 3 str from enhancements, 7 30% Haste boosts and power surge along with multiple specialization feats and enhancements, there is no comparison.

hmmmm OK, I've never really built a full STR-based DPS Ranger, and my Kensai 2WF is still too low level, and awaiting the next Update for more level up, so I'll concede that I don't have only 100% full understanding of these questions from an end game perspective, although I have pointed out aready that I'm not just thinking of pure builds, and not just about higher levels.

As others have said it seems it will be much better for turbine if they do not include the % proc chance for the offhand in this update.

... nevertheless, I can't find that I'm against this proposed change. Providing a good balance between the various combat styles is an absolute *imperative* if they are going to prepare this game for the Epic levels...

The biggest negative consequences will be that Rogues will generally speaking lose even more effectiveness, which is btw caused by a deep design problem in D&D, and that some people will feel that they have spent whole packets of Shroud ingredients on bad purchases.

Concerning Rogues, there absolutely HAS to be some effort by the Devs to ensure that they don't get left behind, starting here and now, with these 2WF changes.

I say Rogues, and not Clerics, FvS, Bard -- because these other classes have other powers that make up for loss of DPS, "merely" requiring a shift of focus or something ; Rogues have no such safety net.

Concerning ingredients expenditure, well it just sucks plain and simple, and I'm unhappy about it, even though I will not be personally affected by it (because my only toon that *will* get the 2WF nerf good and proper is also too thick to understand the concepts involved here, and will just carry on regardless).

[Visty]

Don't come dragging with the "D&D clause". Not much, rules-wise, from D&D matter here any more. This is Spart..., sorry, DDO.

The gist of it is this:

Do you, Vist, agree that TWF costs more in grinding time and reources than THF, yes or no?
Do you agree that TWF costs more in stat allocation, yes or no?
Do you agree that TWF costs more in feats, yes or no?
Do you agree that TWF also has a built in to-hit disadvantage?

Then why on earth should the "damage output... be extremely close to each other"?
Riddle me that.

yes to all but the feat thing. thf has 3 feats too

but some balance should still be there
curently if you want highest dps, its twf or sorcerer
soon we will have the option again if thf or twf

twf still has some advanteges ofer thf like higher ac, reflex, balance and the possibility to more weapon effects
thf has to decide if they want 30% healing amp or ac+4
twf just takes both

[Visty]

Rogues have no such safety net.

rogues have trap disableing

[Krag]

I say Rogues, and not Clerics, FvS, Bard -- because these other classes have other powers that make up for loss of DPS, "merely" requiring a shift of focus or something ; Rogues have no such safety net.

There is no difference.
Cleric, FvS -> healbots
Bard -> buffbot
Rogue -> trapmonkey

None of them need dps to be useful.

[Razcar]

twf still has some advanteges ofer thf like higher ac, reflex, balance and the possibility to more weapon effects
thf has to decide if they want 30% healing amp or ac+4
twf just takes both

That's not entirely true over all, since Epic weapons (and Epic seems to be the way the devs will go with all new content) have two upgrade slots for THF weapons where one handed weapons have one slot.

But for GS, it is true. But it is too weak a bonus to start to outweigh all the costs and disadvantages, and it will be the only bonus. That TWF has 16 items slots when THF has 15 is does not start to balance the additional costs. Especially when you can put many effects on each item slot (like Dragontouched armour).

TWF has to do more damage. Now it does, but not by a very large margin (it used to be, but not anymore after they boosted THF). It should be kept that way, or we will be playing in Crazytown instead of Stormreach.

[Scraap]

The biggest negative consequences will be that Rogues will generally speaking lose even more effectiveness, which is btw caused by a deep design problem in D&D, and that some people will feel that they have spent whole packets of Shroud ingredients on bad purchases.

Concerning Rogues, there absolutely HAS to be some effort by the Devs to ensure that they don't get left behind, starting here and now, with these 2WF changes.

I say Rogues, and not Clerics, FvS, Bard -- because these other classes have other powers that make up for loss of DPS, "merely" requiring a shift of focus or something ; Rogues have no such safety net.

Really hoping they use the current aoe system as a baseline for trap-laying there, as in cast-on the fly, rather than some of the other mechanic abilities that leave you stuck in place. That would help a bit. (admittedly, that's for the one flavor, though I do seem to recall all rogues getting the feat free at level 4, so even a 2d6 spike damage trap would help a bit there as far as unique, flavored sources of damage. Still Cautiously optimistic on that front, but this from a player that tried pure rogue for months before going into a mixed with arcane preference, so take that for what you will)

[Natashaelle]

There is no difference.
Cleric, FvS -> healbots
Bard -> buffbot
Rogue -> trapmonkey

None of them need dps to be useful.

There are only a mere handful of quests in the game where trapmonkeying is anything like being essential in any way whatsoever, and there are a whole bunch of quests with no traps at all.

And, just as a personal thing : "Cleric, FvS -> healbots" ; you've obviously never grouped with my Clerics

[Nightorb]

for how a long time did ppl build batman builds with fullplate and evasion again just to have turbine change evasion?

ppl cried back then, ppl cry now

its the same thing

2 months after its through everyone adopted do it and we all will be fine again

People cried then because they were spending RL time and money on something they enjoyed playing and i stress REAL LIFE time and money. Now unless you are rich and have an extraordinary monthly disposable income, or have a fantastic job where the pay gives you an extraordinary monthly disposable income, (in which case you wouldnt have time to play anyways), this is how they choose to spend what time and money they have on their own form of escapism (i.e. enjoyment). They have a right to think they are being screwed e.g. i spent 15$ amonth on this game for past 2 yrs and whatever amount in ddo pointts to build a character i like playing and worked hard to level to where it is,.....and now your going to change all i have worked and paid for without benefit to me for all my hard work and effort. Let me put it another way they are paying for the benefit of being screwed, it dosnt sound good to me.

Let me add also im not against changes to the system just these changes. I used to fight with two full weight swords in re-enactment circles and its hard, however they do get more attacks in with less damage the overall effect though is equal sure one hit from a great sword will take you down but so will four hits from two weapons out of 6 attacks.

EDIT: most probably after two months all those who have spent the time and money will have left the game entirely ?
What if most of the ones who left were subscribers ?
If that happened would turbine really want to lose what seems to be 50% of subscribers unhappy with said changes?

The above edit are not my views just questions i have quickly constructed.

[Razcar]

There is no difference.
Cleric, FvS -> healbots
Bard -> buffbot
Rogue -> trapmonkey

None of them need dps to be useful.

But you are wrong. Everyone wants buffs and heals. No one wants a trap disabler.

[Sydril]

I have a concern about how these changes will affect two weapon fighting for lower base attack bonus classes.

Right now a rogue, bard or caster with improved two weapon fighting gets an off hand attack in the middle on the animation chain with a +5 bonus to hit. many of these lower bab classes really rely on that hit bonus on epic and higher ac mobs.

reducing that guaranteed attack to a chance to attack lowers these characters ability to hit armor classes in addition to their reduced chance to proc attacks.

These changes will hit these lower bab classes even harder as a result and make a number of currently viable builds practically unplayable.

I'm not sure if this has been addressed elsewhere as this thread has become quite a monster.

[WirelessJoe]

In the longer run, that toon will still be viable even in a worst-case scenario, if you can manage to have enough patience to wait for a level 24 cap increase, which should provide you with access to the STWF, if needed.

More short term, people playing Rogues should campaign and demand clarifications that the whole character class won't get itself nerfed for mêlée.

Thanks for the reply. Again, it looks like my 10% fewer hits is going to result in a lot more than an 10% reduction in my DPS, as I will be blinding less often and each subsequent hit will be missing the critical modifier.

Here's where I'm really going to show my ignorance: how many people are (for example) doing a shroud run at any one time on each server (or even more generally, how many strikes does a server have to calculate at any one time)? Can't be more than a few hundred (or a few thousand in the second example)...so they're saying that decreasing the calculations on a few hunderd people is going to reduce the lag? How maths-intensive is that? Seems like a couple new proccesors and some RAM could handle the load they're talking about releiving by gimping half the classes. Turbine's got a huge new paying userbase; can't they afford a couple more racks?

[Razcar]

yes to all but the feat thing. thf has 3 feats too

Two things here - OTWF, and THF is less disadvantaged DPS wise by not taking the full chain compared to TWF.

[William_the_Bat]

Not having had the time to read 98 pages of this... has anyone actually run the numbers and determined that you can build a top DPS THF that will out-damage the current top damage TWF once the new system is implemented?

I was under the impression that it'll just be closer, but if you spend the 4(!) feats, you'll still come out on top.

Nobody seems to be complaining that zeal or fighter capstone won't be as effective with THF anymore (I'm assuming a double strike will not proc a second glancing blow or an offhand attack, so zeal and the fighter capstone, and the occasional wind staff monk are nerfed as much as TWF in general)

Normally, I'd be annoyed at having my beloved paladin nerfed (I'd get over it, and no, I wouldn't rant on the forums), but the thought of a third exalted smite proc per click if I'm lucky (four if I'm wrong about the doublestrike proccing an offhand attack) really sounds like a lot of fun.

[Swedishchef]

TWF has to do more damage. Now it does, but not by a very large margin (it used to be, but not anymore after they boosted THF). It should be kept that way, or we will be playing in Crazytown instead of Stormreach.

This = +1 sir

And may i add i think they should try to find another way to deal with the "dps" lagg.

Why i say this is the "dps" lagg starts even b4 you start beating on stuff in ToD and Shroud and VoD.
(anyone ever had lagg at the buffing shrine b4 entering VoD? -if not then gz, anyone had lagg inside ToD b4 the fighting starts? -if not gz, anyone had lagg once enterd shroud b4 is´t entrance portal? -if not then gz)

[zealous]

Don't come dragging with the "D&D clause". Not much, rules-wise, from D&D matter here any more. This is Spart..., sorry, DDO.

The gist of it is this:

Do you, Vist, agree that TWF costs more in grinding time and reources than THF, yes or no?
Do you agree that TWF costs more in stat allocation, yes or no?
Do you agree that TWF costs more in feats, yes or no?
Do you agree that TWF also has a built in to-hit disadvantage?

Then why on earth should the "damage output... be extremely close to each other"?
Riddle me that.

Would you mind showing some numbers supporting your claim that twf and non-twitch 2h has damage numbers extremely close to each other?

If we don't include "the momentary insanity" I just can't get what you are talking about.

Take a look at http://community.codemasters.com/for...-mod-10-a.html.

Reduce 2H numbers with 10% due to barb capstone bug.
Reduce every 2H by glancing blow damage/average damage. (>10%)

Reduce 2wf numbers except rangers by 10%.

It's not a nerf to 2wf if they don't add STWF, if they do it's a nerf to rangers and a buff to classes able to spare a feat.

[Natashaelle]

Here's where I'm really going to show my ignorance: how many people are (for example) doing a shroud run at any one time on each server (or even more generally, how many strikes does a server have to calculate at any one time)? Can't be more than a few hundred (or a few thousand in the second example)...so they're saying that decreasing the calculations on a few hunderd people is going to reduce the lag? How maths-intensive is that? Seems like a couple new proccesors and some RAM could handle the load they're talking about releiving by gimping half the classes. Turbine's got a huge new paying userbase; can't they afford a couple more racks?

The Devs have pointed out a few times somewhere way waay WAAAAAAAYYY above up-thread that the DPS lag is not hardware/server related, and I can actually confirm that they are telling the truth about this.

I play in Europe, which has a VERY low population on each server, and we *still* get the DPS lag in the same places as in US, even when there may be fewer than 50 people online at the time.

Technically speaking, at least from what I have understood from Eladrin's explanations, it's a software-related networking issue, where the software is unable to properly synchronise and manage various computer to computer communications in certain scenarios, and especially where 12 client computers and 1 server need to be talking with each other during certain very heavy processing tasks requiring realtime responses from each machine networking into the instances -- for example : 12 people beating Harry up with the maximum amounts of DPS that they can physically manage on their uber-twinked endgame toons and more 2WF than you can shake a stick at.

[SquelchHU]

Exactly, do it by the book so it has a chance to work as part of the whole system.
The problem was caused by not following the book in the first place, why not do that now?

Every deviation from core rules has caused some issue down the line but the response is always to introduce some new half-assed system on top.

Why not use the ruleset you have paid for? Your role should be implementing not inventing, then when the hordes scream for your blood after nerf X you can just point to the Book

Because using the 3.5 rules, as written would cause infinitely more problems than even the worst of the 'house rules' employed here.

Here's a short review of what would happen if this game straight up used 3.5 rules:

Everyone is a Cleric or a Wizard. Druids too, if they're ever added. People MIGHT take a Sorcerer or a Favored Soul if they're feeling generous.

But all those other classes like ya know, most of em? Worthless.

You thought Mod 4 was bad? Hehehe... wait till you see the whole game like that.

Not that the whole game would last very long, since you'd level cap in one hour (after all, killing 13 mobs/level doesn't take long for a party of 4, the only reason PnP combat is long is manual dice rolls), cap all viable toons in a lazy Sunday, and then not even use the rest of your ten day free trial because you're already done!

But look at it this way! Even though you don't know what you're wishing for, you're still getting it. After all, all of the following are true to PnP:

THF is the only valid melee style.
Rangers have two styles, but they both suck, so no one cares.
Lol Monks. Just. Lol. Monks.

So you should be happy right now you're getting your way... and then you should realize what a terrible idea that is, and stuff that evil genie back in his itty bitty living space.

[SquelchHU]

for how a long time did ppl build batman builds with fullplate and evasion again just to have turbine change evasion?

ppl cried back then, ppl cry now

its the same thing

2 months after its through everyone adopted do it and we all will be fine again

Batman nerf = change from mithril fullplate to mithril breastplate. Net loss? 1 AC.

There is no comparison (not to mention that even if you had to completely reroll to make that work for some reason, it was a level 10 with no raid loot so not hard to replace).

And you're seriously comparing something that probably won't result in the loss of a level 10 raid loot less character with something that probably will result in the loss of multiple level 20 raid looted and tomed out characters? Really? Those are the same to you?

[Consumer]

Not having had the time to read 98 pages of this... has anyone actually run the numbers and determined that you can build a top DPS THF that will out-damage the current top damage TWF once the new system is implemented?

Using AO/Yargore or whoevers most recent DPS calculator:

Pure TWF Fighter specced for max DPS including max DPS equipment against trash (5 minutes) -> 589.24

Pure THF Fighter (epic sos) same rules as above -> 677.84

[Visty]

Batman nerf = change from mithril fullplate to mithril breastplate. Net loss? 1 AC.

There is no comparison (not to mention that even if you had to completely reroll to make that work for some reason, it was a level 10 with no raid loot so not hard to replace).

And you're seriously comparing something that probably won't result in the loss of a level 10 raid loot less character with something that probably will result in the loss of multiple level 20 raid looted and tomed out characters? Really? Those are the same to you?

considering twf looses only about 8% overall dps, yes i am comparing them