Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[--ChaosTheory--]

Changing two weapon fighting to require yet another feat sounds like a no go to me. It already takes 4 of a characters 7 base feats to take the full chain which puts it roughly on par with two handed fighting (3), and ranged fighting (4). Moving it up to 5 (~70% of a toons available feats) is far to much.

[Borror0]

Somebody probably suggested this elsewhere in the 1800+ posts, but if excessive die rolling is part of the lag problem why not just remove a lot of it by making weapon effects do a flat amount of damage instead of having a die roll for each effect. Frost does +3 cold damage, etc. Would remove a ton of calculating, and wouldn't be much change in people's dps if you make the flat number roughly the average of what one of those effects does randomly now.

The problem is not "excessive dice rolls." As Eladrin has already explained, rolling a dice is about the lightest operation there is. What was taxing on the server was physics detection check, which is why they get cut by more than a half in Eladrin's proposed change.

What you suggest wouldn't reduce lag in any meaningful way.

[vVAnjilaVv]

and anjila, well said
most ppl dont realise that those numbers arent set in stone yet and everything could still change

TY...and I for one fully admit that I am pretty embarrassed by how I first reacted to this announcement. When I look back on it, Turbine has NEVER made a change so colossal to this game that it made me wanna quit.

They either change it around to be more suitable or they make other options.......you can all cry wolf all you want, but the fact of the matter is right now the only thing in the courtyard is a timid squirrel.

[vVAnjilaVv]

Maybe...just maybe...and I do not know if this would be feasible of too over-powering......TWF....the first feat will be given free as long as you meet certain pre-reqs in your build.

Or maybe WF will be a granted feat to all classes.

[vVAnjilaVv]

The problem is not "excessive dice rolls." As Eladrin has already explained, rolling a dice is about the lightest operation there is. What was taxing on the server was physics detection check, which is why they get cut by more than a half in Eladrin's proposed change.

What you suggest wouldn't reduce lag in any meaningful way.

So this is basically all about attack animations as far as the lag issue goes, aside from the intended nerf?...sorry if I am being dense.

[Visty]

So this is basically all about attack animations as far as the lag issue goes, aside from the intended nerf?...sorry if I am being dense.

jep

the removal of the physic detection for the offhand is against the lag

the rest is the nerf

[Razcar]

So this is basically all about attack animations as far as the lag issue goes, aside from the intended nerf?...sorry if I am being dense.

It's about when you swing a weapon and the system checks if the target is in range of that swing or not. Now it checks for every attack, and for TWF there's double the amount of checks compared to THF. That is kind of silly, since all of the TWF "extra" attacks, the "hooks" are already baked in to the "normal" animations.

So when you swing with a TWF weapon you are doing two attacks for each visible animation (if you have Greater TWF), one visible, one hidden. But the system does a range check for each attack. This takes a lot of resources, especially with the speed that we are attacking.

[Borror0]

So this is basically all about attack animations as far as the lag issue goes, aside from the intended nerf?...sorry if I am being dense.

When we attack, the server checks if our weapon physically touches the monster or if it is too far away. That is the calculation that is very taxing. So, what Eladrin wants to do is to reduce the number of times the server has to make that verification. He does that in two ways:
1. Making the off-hand weapon use the same check as the main hand.
2. Replacing attack rate by procs.

The first part reduces the lag because TWF characters do twice less physical detection checks. The main hand will still verify if the monster is hit but then the off-hand weapon will "piggyback" on that verification instead of checking if the mosnter has not moved in the last 0.15 seconds. The second part requires less physical detection checks because the faster we attack, the more checks are require whereas procs don't require checks.

It's the verification that the hit did physically connect that causes lag, because it's a complicated calculation.

[Swedishchef]

So if i get the devs right: we implement this as DA didn´t work?

So we get DA removed sicne it´s not removing lagg?

Seriously thou, i know that it was mentioned by Eladrin that they working around new server hardware and implementing this instead.

Rather than attack the problem by changing common heavy-load equipment, we’ve already taken some steps to optimize the way we perform attacks, and are considering the following changes to reduce overall performance loads.

This means that we will not get new server hardware and instead a nerfbat (well not the biggest bat around but still), so i guess the revenue from the influx of new players isn´t enough, and since it´s not a new game whom ever decides where the cash goes does not want to invest in it hardware-wise.

Only the future will tell how (if we get this implemented) it will make the gameplay feel, but i feel like it´s another step away from the original rules (yeah i know this is not D&D), futhermore it will still make a dice roll on the 10% (when it occurs) so it´s not going to be that often but the acctual roll will still be there, i know the collision will be removed but the dice roll will not go away.

[Borror0]

So if i get the devs right: we implement this as DA didn´t work?

You got it wrong. It's: DA worked; now, let's fix DPS lag.

This means that we will not get new server hardware and instead a nerfbat

No. It means "Instead of changing Green Steel, we're changing how TWF works."

[Boromirs]

Hrm, this may not get implemented judging from the mass amount of negative feedback. I happen to agree, but again Im open to a change ONLY if it's not too harsh and other weapon styles recieve equal changes to their playstyles as well. All of this should be done in tandem and not in any staggered implementation.

BTW, the second chart IS too harsh since for levels 1-19 you are looking at severe diminished attack power 100% main-hand 60% off-hand. And thats at the higher levels. The majority of the time you're looking at 100% mainhand 40% off hand... way way way too harsh.

[Razcar]

So in other words, Rogues will get screwed hard. As if we weren't screwed badly enough already by our low hit dice, lack of toughness enhancements, lack of feats, and the fact that the traps are so wussy most parties just run straight through them and don't need a rog to disable unless they're after bonus xp. Now you're going to nerf the one thing we're really good at - DPS - in order to give the barbarians yet another advantage.

You betcha. +1.
The problem source seems to be that our game designers does not seem to understand basic cost - benefit relations. This is how it looks like they reason:

• A grinds 24 large Shroud ingredients. B grinds 48 large Shroud ingredients. Both should have the same offense (DPS).
• A has 800 hit points. B has 400 hit points. Both should have the same offense.
• A needs high STR and CON. B needs high STR, DEX, and CON. Both should have the same offense.
• A gets his DPS by right-clicking. B gets his DPS by manoeuvring, Diplomacy, positioning, waiting. Both should have the same offense.

[Visty]

You betcha. +1.
The problem source seems to me be is that game designers does not seem to understand basic cost - benefit relations. This seems to be how they reason:

• A grinds 24 large Shroud ingredients. B grinds 48 large Shroud ingredients. Both should have the same offense (DPS).
• A has 800 hit points. B has 400 hit points. Both should have the same offense (DPS).
• A needs high STR and CON. B needs high STR, DEX, and CON. Both should have the same offense (DPS).

dont forget that B gets more attacks then A

[magnus1]

sounds like my already not capable rogue has been shot in the off hand. cant do epic now maybe cant do elite. fewer teams will want me. sounds like a typical nerf! carry on with your well placed game mechanics! makes going free to play even easier. thanks for making the decision easy turbine!

[Razcar]

dont forget that B gets more attacks then A

That matters when you can e.g. vorpal or stat damage to kill opponents. That is not possible in high-level play, or not possible at all anymore, so that advantage is null and void.

[Imnisc]

So if i get the devs right: we implement this as DA didn´t work?

So we get DA removed sicne it´s not removing lagg?

Seriously thou, i know that it was mentioned by Eladrin that they working around new server hardware and implementing this instead.


This means that we will not get new server hardware and instead a nerfbat (well not the biggest bat around but still), so i guess the revenue from the influx of new players isn´t enough, and since it´s not a new game whom ever decides where the cash goes does not want to invest in it hardware-wise.

Only the future will tell how (if we get this implemented) it will make the gameplay feel, but i feel like it´s another step away from the original rules (yeah i know this is not D&D), futhermore it will still make a dice roll on the 10% (when it occurs) so it´s not going to be that often but the acctual roll will still be there, i know the collision will be removed but the dice roll will not go away.

Maybe you misunderstand, heavy load equipment means weapons with lots of procs (ie greensteel) not server hw.
Apologies if I misunderstood your misunderstanding

[Swedishchef]

You got it wrong. It's: DA worked; now, let's fix DPS lag.

No. It means "Instead of changing Green Steel, we're changing how TWF works."

Rather than attack the problem by changing common heavy-load equipment.

So the lagg issues we still have on the server is fixed, since when? I had the usual 11:00-13:00 lagg on thelanis today and did experiance some rubberbanding in house p while lvling my midbe. DA sure fixed lagg

So this means: we are not changing green steel?

If so, instal new server-hardware and don´t go ahead with this change untill we have tested the new hadrware.

[Grecan]

The size of this thread is too much for me to read now, i read just a little amount of posts, but tracked all of Eladrin's posts and wanted to make a point regarding this one:

The size of the change necessary isn't within the scope of changes that we'd be able to make in the time frames we've got. No conspiracy.

Edit: There's also many, many posts in this thread that I haven't replied directly to.

I understand by this that the Dev team has a limited time frame to make the changes.

What i simply want to say is, if the time is not enough to make the job done right, try to expand the time frame.

I personally would prefer a job well done in more time than expected, than a work poorly done within the originally estimated time limits.

Think of it like the last server maintenence DDO went through... Making the game work right was impervious to time frames

[Scraap]

So this is basically all about attack animations as far as the lag issue goes, aside from the intended nerf?...sorry if I am being dense.

From a design perspective, yes and no... to use an analogy:

You point at me from arms length across the room.
In order for the engine to tell whether you poke me with your finger, it has to check with it's physics subsystem whether your arm instead is hitting any of the object in that room, be it a table, chair ect ect.

Furthermore, we're talking predicting behavior over a period of time as well (0.15 seconds, to be exact)

So initially, the engine was having to check over everything in the room twice during a 0.15 second interval.

Removing purely the second raycast (you pointing your finger) makes the assumption that during that 0.15 seconds, you didn't move, I didn't move, and Fred wasn't over for tea (because we all know you don't get between an Illithid and his Earl Gray) and decided to move between us, so for that second strike, without any other checks or probabilities we'd have to assume that everything is nailed down for that 0.15 seconds.

So I can see, to a degree, the need to balance out the over-striking potential with a probability method to account for the notion that you might shift a bit, or I might, or Fred might get the munchies at a bad time. (Which is why previously I'd brought up the notion of checking to see if folks are moving or not during that second swing fake-check). Of course, it would seem that the notion got taken a bit farther than that to a full-on re-balance. Should be interesting to see if any emphasis is put on bringing AC back up to respectable levels if they're going to stick with a damage lowering across the board for Dex builds.

Not an apologist, not terribly happy with it myself. But the logic is fairly simple to follow this end. (Of course, I work with physics systems among other things for a living, so hopefully none of that was unintentionally arcane. if so, that I will apologize for.)

[Hutoth]

Originally Posted by Razcar
You betcha. +1.


The problem source seems to me be is that game designers does not seem to understand basic cost - benefit relations. This seems to be how they reason:

• A grinds 24 large Shroud ingredients. B grinds 48 large Shroud ingredients. Both should have the same offense (DPS).
• A has 800 hit points. B has 400 hit points. Both should have the same offense (DPS).
• A needs high STR and CON. B needs high STR, DEX, and CON. Both should have the same offense (DPS).

dont forget that B gets more attacks then A

I think that consideration is accounted for as Razcar is talking overall DPS.