Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Archetype]

Nice



If the lag of a thousand prox check rolls
Were to burst at once from the servers
That would be like the splendor of the Mighty One
I am become Nerf
The shatterer of TWF

Now we have something WORTH talking about until Update 5, thanks.

[Omega2K]

Eladrin,

If what is causing the lag is the number of dice being rolled at once why cant we start simplifying dice rolls to be much more efficient instead of changing the number of attacks everyone gets per second. Here is an example of maintaining randomness in on hit effects, but dropping the number of dice needed to achieve the calculation significantly.

A level 20 reincarnated monk is using a +5 Shocking(1d6) of Puregood(1d6) of Frost(1d6) handwrap, he has the Henshin Mystic monk set equipped(1d6) and is wearing a Red Dragonscale Robe(1d6) where his fists do 2d12 damage base, His TOD rings have 2d6 holy and 1d6 acid on them as well, and he hits his Stormstrike I(1d6) attack when he swings.

So his damage roll would be 1d6shock + 1d6good + 1d6frost + 1d6henshin + 1d6dragonscale + 1d6stormstrike + 2d6holy +1d6acid + 2d12base + 5 on every swing. That's 11 dice rolls every swing, but with a quick change we can drop that to 2 dice rolls every swing without taking away from that monks attack speed. What if the system simply rolled a single dice and applied it to all on hit effects of a weapon that involved that size dice roll.

For example the system simply rolled 1d6 and resulted in a 2, then rolled 1d12 and resulted in a 10. You could take that single number for each dice size and apply it to all effects. Thus it would deal 2shock + 2good + 2frost + 2henshin + 2dragonscale + 2stormstrike + 4holy +2acid + 20base + 5 = 43 damage

This simple change could result in up to 82% more cpu efficiency per attack to be made for some characters on every swing.

Seliana and I are on the same page here... Want to reduce DPS lag? Reduce the number of rolls and computations required without nerfing the game entirely and ****ing off you customer base!

And why no Dev comment on Seliana's or my ideas? Could it be you have already made up your mind and this is just your way of selling it to the customer base (and in the process selling your +5 Hearts of Wood)? I am getting a bit perturbed here. You are not giving us a democratic vote, only a ruse.

I said before I don't play TWF characters much so this nerf would actually increase my prowess on the server since I prefer THF... But what I don't like is the way you are trying to swindle and **** off the customer base. You want our honest feedback? You are getting it! Now behave in a transparent manner and tell us what you plan to do with our ideas.

[tihocan]

WAIT, SOMEONE JUST COME OUT AND SAY IT?!

IS THIS A LAG FIX? OR IS IT A TWF NERF?

Im reading more and more and Im starting to get anxious that this is a TWF nerf... someone please say it isn't so.

It's both.

[Cyr]

Wind Stance not being optimal for every fighting style isn't bad. We're considering doing something with Water Stance to make it a preferable staff stance, though Sun Stance's strength boost could also be appealing.

More confused logic here Eladrin. If this is a lag fix then why is there all this selective winners and losers stuff going on? This is a big nerf for quarter staff using monks. FYI, they suck right now and didn't need a nerf to match your idea of what flavor they should have.

[Temko]

i dont really care "how" something is calculated.

"is there a reduction in damage?"

if yes = alter % until it's gone.
if no = leave % as is.

but it goes beyond that.

TWF compared to THF (which needs that **** twitch fighting fixed) deals a bit more damage against a single target, as opposed to THF dealing mor damage against several targets due to glacing blows.
S&B should do as much damage as a TWF without a offhand weapon. period.

In the current % based numbers, it looks like TWF get a nerf of 15% to 45% in damage. also bieng as the ammount of attacks that are done is lowered.. the real advantage of TWF and the main purpose ot TWF is also nerfed: Special effect weapons like Banishers, Smithers, Disruptors, Shattmantle, Shatter, cursespewing etc.. .lose a lot of their worth as they chance to proc gets lowered as well.

personally i dont care how you do it behind the scenes. just dont nerf the ammount of attacks we do or the DPS that is dealth with TWF.

if you feel DPS is broken for TWF, THF and S&B... fix that in a seperate change. this change is sweeping enough without the nerf.

[Eladrin]

And why no Dev comment on Seliana's or my ideas?

The size of the change necessary isn't within the scope of changes that we'd be able to make in the time frames we've got. No conspiracy.

Edit: There's also many, many posts in this thread that I haven't replied directly to.

[Potvin]

I can remember being a ranger and being unable to find groups because you weren't seen as a dps source. Slowly the mind set changed and rangers were accepted into groups. Then the WOP nerf hit (which I support, it should have happened) and twf took a big hit. Now you want to decrease the amount of damage rangers do and send them back into exile?

Monks are just starting to gain acceptance in high level content, being seen as a source of DPS (be it less than almost every other class) and as an asset to groups and your going to knock them down now too?

With the system the way it is you see a wide variety of builds. After this TWF nerf (lets call it what it is) all we are going to see are half-orc THF barbs with epic SOS running around.


Reduce lag by reducing the number of dice rolls?

I Love It. With some of the suggestions in the posts, you can drastically reduce the number of dice rolls tied to every attack and reduce the overall lag.

Changing attack speed to double strike?

I don't like it, but will accept it. I like my ranger and monk being able to swing/punch faster than my barb but I can justify the change mentally from a flavor perspective.

Changing off hand attacks for ALL TWF builds?

Hate it, your going to kill classes and drive away subscribers.

I think you will see that most of the DDO populous will accept changes 1 and 2. But change three you will have a very unhappy demographic of your player base. I for one don't want to see another mass exodus of players because you are taking all the hard work they put into their toons, and all the enjoyment they get out of playing them, away. TWF isn't game breaking, so please don't break IT .

This sums up my feelings. I'm very fearful that this pure monk DPS nerf is going to really hurt my enjoyment of this game post level 20 achievement.
I don't have time, or desire, to level multiple characters here, especially if they are going to be irreparably nerfed for the 'sake of lag reduction'.

I'm all for the change in mechanics, just don't nerf a) overall damage or b) combat builds comparative to each other right now.

If:
a) the 18/2 ranger/monk does 100% of max possible damage, and
b)a 20 barbarian does 95% of that max damage, and
c)a 20 monk does 92% of that max damage, and
d) a pure fighter does 90% of this max damage

then do not change this ratio in the new system
(note: the above values are just made up by me, to provide an illustration)

Changing this ratio of DPS/build more then anything else will cost you in angry customers.

[Correlan]

All hail the Mighty Nerf Bat!

So, nerfing haste wasn't enough, you are now 'fixing twf' to help with lag at end quest level, how about taking haste away completely? Actually, while i'm thinking about it, just take TWF out of the game. It would probably be better to just send all paying customers their money back, i think nerfing this will finally be too much for the older player base.

[Verengor]

I don't like the change. Yet another step more away from the D&D rules.

I'd suggest something like this instead:
1) Let TWF fighting chars only make one attack roll for both the mainhand and offhand attack. If the attack misses both attacks fail, if the attack hits both swings hit the target. In case the to hit bonus of main and offhand are different only the average to hit bonus will be applied to the hit.

2) Roll the main damage in one roll for both weapons: e.g. 2d8+15 instead of 1d8+7 and 1d8 +15 (if DR of mobs is involved the dr must be doubled ofc).

3) I don't know how hard to code the following is: Many people use two weapons with nearly the same abilitys (shroud weapons or holy weapons, handwraps always fullfill this). Everytime you change a TWF weapon the game checks the the extra damage rolls (holy, fire, ...). If both weapons have the same ability the effect is doubled on each hit instead of rolled twice until the weapon is changed again (remember to code x2 elemental resistance if needed).

With these mechanics TWF would involve less rolls than the suggested system and less rolls than THF (no glancing blows)

[Gobbothegreen]

Well twf isnt the only thing getting nerfed, they are also removing glancing blow from thf while moving so twitching will be nerfed too.

[Eladiun]

I like it although it would seem to me that Tempest Ranger should have 100%/100%, if it is to keep its place as the example of 'best/perfect twf'.

I actually got the DPS lag thing one night in Devil's Assault (normal, believe it or not), and suffered Lag-death as a result.

Tempest Capstone...hint, hint.

Overall, I'm not bothered by the change either if it fixes the issue. If the change brings TWF and THF inline damage wise, I think that's fine.

[MeToo]

Thank you for sharing this with us, Eladrin.

As a computer programmer who appreciates the complicated intricacies of "real time" networked client-server systems and how this will help consolidate packet traffic and server load, I say, "Bravo!"

As a methodical DDO player who invested extra time planning and leveling a Kensei II TWF 28 point build without tomes who currently relies heavily on his off hand paralyzer, I say, "Ouch."

Couldn't we keep the current payoff from investing in TWF by scaling both hands instead of just the main? I'm fine with reducing the actual number of attacks if the damage is increased by a percentage for each TWF feat taken or something. Maybe make power attack more effective the more TWF feats are taken.

To appease players that like to see their character attack faster as they level up, I suggest the client show the extra attack animations on screen but still only process and transmit the fewer, consolidated requests behind the scenes.

[Anthios888]

Another thing...

This change makes obsolete many DPS characters, throws out years of greensteel grinding, and angers the playerbase. Many people have called for a two weapon fighting adjustment, but this, as described, simply throws the scales the other way.

And the worst thing is... this does not even promise to fix the lag problem.

At the end of the day, we'll have lag AND disillusionment...

At least Turbine makes more money with the hearts of wood store?

[Aerendil]

If you acquired a double strike effect from somewhere, then yes, Touch of Death could double strike (and trigger an off hand attack) for a total of three attacks. You may have to wait for the next tier of Warchanter though.

Wind Stance not being optimal for every fighting style isn't bad. We're considering doing something with Water Stance to make it a preferable staff stance, though Sun Stance's strength boost could also be appealing.

I like the idea of reviewing Monk stances - Water and Mountain are definitely overdue for a look at.

As for ToD possibly getting a double-proc??
Light monks are already at a pretty severe disadvantage for burst dps compared to Dark - this could completely slaughter light monks

[txan]

So basically instead of improving the servers communication to get rid of the dps lag you are just going to take the easy way out and nerf twfing

[Gnorbert]

All of you saying this is a hidden nerf can just stop... Eladrin comes right out and says in his initial post that this results in a nerf to TWF. (and indirectly to ranged as well for some unfortunately)

[rdasca]

Yeah my AA Ranger is now closer in dps to all those Tempest Rangers out there.

Ok all kidding aside, as stated I think these changes are a very bad idea, while something needs to be done about lag and I applaud your attempt to do something; cutting people's number of attacks by an average of 25% is not the answer. Going this route makes quest and raids longer it puts an increase on healer and caster resources (i.e. Mana pots and the like).

Frankly dps lag is cause more by the number of people on at a given time then by the amount of damage being done to a raid boss, as others have said if you are on at non-peak times there is rarely lag, if you are on at peak time you get lag no matter what kind of party you are in.

So add the two together and you come up with longer fights more resources used and very little if any real change to the lag issues, lose / lose all the way around. Lag wipes are already very frustrating, add this to the mix and not only are they frustrating, but now you get to invest more time running a raid to get to the point where lag is an issue and at peak play times the lag will still be there.

Given that the test server has a lot fewer players on it the only real test will be to release it live and by then it will be too late. My guess is Turbine will go ahead and put these code changes in anyway regardless of what kind of feedback you get, but if there is a chance you are listening, then sorry but I vote no.

[Omega2K]

The size of the change necessary isn't within the scope of changes that we'd be able to make in the time frames we've got. No conspiracy.

Thank you for the reply but TAKE THE TIME TO DO IT RIGHT! It is not just about how quickly you can make changes, it is about how quickly you can make the right changes and improve the performance of the game and keep DDO alive and prosperous at the same time. If this change is not going to be ready in time for Update 5, don't push it through rapidly and make the wrong choices in the interest of time to market...

[rest]

At the end of the day, we'll have lag AND disillusionment...

At least Turbine makes more money with the hearts of wood store?

Ding ding ding ding. Winner!

[TFPAQ]

You'd still lose to a roll of 19-20 combined with a lightning strike proc. Though it'll definitely take more swings than a double ToD

then I'll use my greensteel handwraps with lightning proc and, oh ... never mind ...


lol