Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Natashaelle]

... and does Eladrin consider the twitch and movement which nearly all the good thf players use? I am not chatising or playing down his or your words.

Twitching is an exploit, and obviously destined to go the way of the Dodo.

[Calebro]

Regarding your earl;ier question:
Again, Seph has answered a question posed to me before I could, and probably better than I could.

It's common enough knowledge......juat like the attack bug aaallllloonnnngg time ago.

Is it?
I had to explain it to IMPAQT a month or two ago. I can find the link if you like.

[Natashaelle]

answer is: if twf so far outshined 2hf why doenst my toon boosting ftr haste boost4/hasted/+8 str from kensi/rams might for +2 more....easily pull agro over a barb (seemming only hasted and raged) using greensteel?

?

Because regardless of any other factors, barbarians generally produce more DPS and hatred than any other character class ?

This is totally unrelated to issues of 2HF versus 2WF ...

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Not possible given the d20 system. With the values you suggested everyone else with slightly better than "standard" gear will pretty much be auto-hitting. GH alone will cover the gap. Add in bard songs and other buffs and half of the d20 is already covered.

possible with the modifications that Eladrin has done to epic mobs to have an additional d20 roll to attack giving them a range of 1-40 rather than 1-20 - why can't this apply to some player attacks too?

Level 13 Paladin, travelling solo (often with hireling or 2) questing level 10-12 dungeons (No raids). "Severe lag until death" has occured about 4 or so times, and in the same two places.

If you're getting lag while soling with hirelings it's not dps lag it's AI lag. Completely different beast - I suggest you bug report where you experienced the lag, enclosing the location of the hirelings and your location if possible (e.g. if you were up a ladder and they weren't that can cause lag)

I'm not going to get into this again, but barring ESoS (which NEEDS a nerf and thus shouldn't be counted in this scenario), and twitching (which was never intended and is also getting a nerf), TWF is superior to THF in most cases.

Sounds like eSoS needs a nerf? Eladrin - too scared of backlash to do this?

Garth

[Natashaelle]

I was playing in Europe for 4 years and we never experienced a single dps lag !!!!!!! Yes we had smaller population, approximately at the peak of Europe servers maybe we had 10-20% max of USA population . Now atm they play there maybe 150 people tops .
The reason we didn't experience even a single dps lag is that Europe servers could handle the processing with the population we had.

I play in Europe, and atm DPS lag can occur there in the same cases as in US, and even when numbers of people on the server are below 50.

[Krag]

Well, from what I understand, if you exclude the Epic SoS and twitching, TWF is ahead of THF, and the game obviously can't be balanced around an apparently unintended game mechanic. Personally, I'd be fine with THF and TWF being balanced a bit better, with the possibility of THF pulling ahead vs. single targets a bit for someone who twitches well, but twitch attack speed cannot be the point of comparison for the two.

This statement is not 100% accurate.

Low-level barbarian easily outdamages any twf-user, because TWFers lack the feats for they style. By the time both toons are flagging for Shroud, twf catches up, but then *ding*. TWFer need 2 metalline of pg khopeshes where THF need only one greatsword/greataxe/falchion. Do I have to mention that khopeshes are exotic and therefore much more rare than twohanded options? and the demand is 4-5 times greater? Next *ding* comes when THF has ALL Greensteel weapons, but got enough scales to craft weapons for one hand.

By the time they both have several GS items/weapons, TWFer might have got a little better DPS. But guess what? Epic SoS is not that far away as it once was.

[Cashiry]

Sounds like eSoS needs a nerf? Eladrin - too scared of backlash to do this?

Garth

I would think their are more changes with update 5, than what they are telling us... this is just the biggest beast.... I would not be surprised if ESoS is nerfed and some other epic items from desert get a boost.....

[Consumer]

I'm not using a monster build......

The Bytcher~

So your 2 rogue instead, SA helps so much against raid bosses. Again there are much higher DPS builds available.

The Consumer~

[Natashaelle]

possible with the modifications that Eladrin has done to epic mobs to have an additional d20 roll to attack giving them a range of 1-40 rather than 1-20 - why can't this apply to some player attacks too?

The *actual* change is more like epic trash mobs rolling between -20 and +20 on the d20.

Applying this to player toons ? LMAO

If you think that *this* thread is forum meltdown, wait til you see what would happen if the devs proposed that one !!! hahaha

[Deamus]

I play in Europe, and atm DPS lag can occur there in the same cases as in US, and even when numbers of people on the server are below 50.

Have you played in USA to know what is DPS lag ?
Why i have not seen that in Europe and neither of my guildies (40 people ) that played in Devourer for 4 years ?
DPS lag never existed in Europe or exists now .......

[Boromirs]

Be careful Turbine you guys are treading on eggshells here. This decision could make or break the game, Im not saying DON't DO IT Im just saying BE VERY VERY CAREFUL in -Implementation- -Community Input- -"Balance"-.

[Natashaelle]

Have you played in USA to know what is DPS lag ?
Why i have not seen that in Europe and neither of my guildies (40 people ) that played in Devourer for 4 years ?
DPS lag never existed in Europe or exists now .......

a) I understand the written English that is used to describe the problem on these forums

b) Yes, DPS lag *does* exist, now, in Europe, although I will say that it has surfaced there relatively recently compared to US

I experience DPS lag every time I run Shroud, and in fact I have been forced to change my fighting style to compensate against it and try to avoid suddenly dying for no apparent reason. The DPS lag can cause the occasional wipe, and it's also noticeable during portal whacking.

[Souless]

So your 2 rogue instead, SA helps so much against raid bosses. Again there are much higher DPS builds available.

The Consumer~

I never intended this toon to be the highest dps....my problem is that suggesting simply because i have gtwf make it the highest dps is in err

The Bytcher~

[krud]

possible with the modifications that Eladrin has done to epic mobs to have an additional d20 roll to attack giving them a range of 1-40 rather than 1-20 - why can't this apply to some player attacks too?

The problem with that is it produces a bell curve attack profile, heavily weighted toward the median dice rolls. In this case a majority of attacks will be centered around a 2d20 roll of 21. I can accept that if they decided to do away with grazing hits, however.

Also the original idea is to minimize calculations/rolls. This would just add one more. What I find strange is that they know all these added calculations slow things down, yet they kept adding stuff like the winter festival effects to weapons, so that everybody ends up with more dice rolls. Once again, they've inflated themselves into a messy situation.

[Emili]

Twitching is an exploit, and obviously destined to go the way of the Dodo.

Not quite sure on that... I have wondered why they had not addressed twitching before ... is quite a well talked about topic in many a dps thread... My mind tells because attack sequence breaking is also an intended game mechanic and may be a reason why they have not pressed to address twitching.

One of the devs biggest concerns was keeping animation and attacks close to sync. (Appearances oh so important) ... To eliminate twitching would mean increasing the amount of movement one may take without breaking chain... possible results... BaB meaning lessened in relavance... SA feat meaningless and most likely a few other things to oversight.

One thing I find surprising is the Devs increased the number of procs on THF for glances, turn around and propose adding glances to Bastard swords and dwaven axes when used one handed with a shield ... then turn around and tell "we're going to reduce hitting and procs of twf off-hand to reduce the DPS lag... surely tell's me be more a bloody matter of robbing Peter to pay Paul. Yet deny that people do not twitch and presume is an unintended exploit or game mechanic when clearly the idea of breaking attack sequence is an intended functionality... the scope if the current positive "to-hit" within attack sequence was intended to be an encouragement to stay within attack chain... yet they removed mob AC to the point where nothing in the + in sequence really matter much until epic... thurn around and state we'll tweak the animationand attack due to liking of the player base last time they messed with it... I see no intent in practice on their part but only care about the asthetic and care not of who or what is balanced among class nor feats... they figure once the lag returns they'll switch the balances back again... matters not to them if twf thf or what not be balanced just that people play

[Viking707]

For the record:

I'm against the change. At least where the speed issue is concerned. I'm OK with the targeting portion of it. I'd rather live with the lag than have my attack speed slowed down, even with the double attack issue thown in to even it out.

Just my opinion.

-V

[Imnisc]

Why not simply do away with all the speed boosting mechanics period? As far as I can recall, NO ability be it from spell/class/ or race actually "increased attack speed" in tabletop PnP rules.

Haste = 1 extra attack per round (main hand)
TWF = 1 extra off hand attack (feat reduces the penalty for the attack)
ITWF = 1 extra off hand attack at -5 penalty
GTWF = 1 extra off hand attack at -10 penalty
STWF = 1 extra off hand attack at -15 penalty

So hasted +STWF at level 20 = 9 attacks in a 6 second round while NOT moving = 90 attacks per minute.

Now.. how is it we have come to expect 200+ attacks per minute while TWF in DDO? I say leave TWF alone and just get rid of ALL the +attack speed boosting abilities in the game. Lag fixed! Your welcome!

Seriously, just make characters AND monsters attack at the attack speed they are SUPPOSED to have per PnP rules. Yeah, the game will feel "slower" but personally I think moving away from the mad high speed click fest it is now MIGHT actually be a good thing.

(I do realize that in so doing virtually every monster in the game will have to be rebalanced to factor in the drastically reduced DPS, this may be way outside the scope of what you guys want to do)

Exactly, do it by the book so it has a chance to work as part of the whole system.
The problem was caused by not following the book in the first place, why not do that now?

Every deviation from core rules has caused some issue down the line but the response is always to introduce some new half-assed system on top.

Why not use the ruleset you have paid for? Your role should be implementing not inventing, then when the hordes scream for your blood after nerf X you can just point to the Book

[Emili]

Exactly, do it by the book so it has a chance to work as part of the whole system.
The problem was caused by not following the book in the first place, why not do that now?

Every deviation from core rules has caused some issue down the line but the response is always to introduce some new half-assed system on top.

Why not use the ruleset you have paid for? Your role should be implementing not inventing, then when the hordes scream for your blood after nerf X you can just point to the Book

The issue with that is player base screaming the opposite...

Most the player base prefer the pace set in the combat system. The current 2.5 -3 attacks per second is what most are used to. If the number of attacks is set to the PnP set the current quests would be x 2.5 to x3 in human timeframe. The attraction of the combat system will be lost and many players would go off find a quicker MMO, because DDO does not lend itself to a RPG but more of a combat game. I've seen such in the past every time they deal with the animation sequences or attack chaining.

[TiranBlade]

Round and round we go

+1 Rep for the Zatoichi clip, that movie rocks!

Also at this point being a former Everquest Player, I don't mind the change anymore, fundamentally if you think about it percentage wise to your normal attacks by the v.3.5 rules aside from rogues and monks getting an extra 4th main hand attack in this game you get roughly the same number of off hand attacks per round as the v.3.5 rules.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Exactly, do it by the book so it has a chance to work as part of the whole system.
The problem was caused by not following the book in the first place, why not do that now?

Every deviation from core rules has caused some issue down the line but the response is always to introduce some new half-assed system on top.

Why not use the ruleset you have paid for? Your role should be implementing not inventing, then when the hordes scream for your blood after nerf X you can just point to the Book

You want 1 swing every 6 seconds for Bab 0-4 characters? And a little over 1 second/swing at BAB 20? That's pretty darn slow in a video game. I love the D&D rule set, and believe many of this game's problems do come from deviating from those rules, but that particular rule just doesn't work at all in a video game.